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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Are my ancestors convicts?

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Ankillito
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 20:13
So I was just talking with my computer-illiterate grandma , and she's trying to trace our family tree. She knows that before they came to America, they were in Australia, and before that, they were in England. She traced the family line back to the early 1800s and knows the names of our ancestors that came from England to Europe. We'd love to know why them came over. Did they move to Australia on their own, or are my ancestors convicts who were sent to the penal colony of Australia?

I was hoping you smart British people might be able to tell me how to find out...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 20:34 Edited at: 16th Jul 2007 20:42
They could be either as some people did move to Australia in hope for a better land - it was also the same reason why the Puritans moved to New England. (though their purpose was more religion orientated) But a good number of criminals were sent to Australia as slaves until their sentence ended where they could go back home or stay there, a lot of criminals stayed because generally criminals broke the law in order to survive and Australia provided them with plenty of oppurtunities. So it would be hard to tell which they were - to wind up Australians I like to say their ancestors are criminals, but I don't if yours were. The surname of your ancestors might help pick a likely answer - if their names are the names of the so called 'commoner' chances are they wouldn't have been able to afford moving there and they probably broke the law or if their names are more upper class there's a chance they moved there. Though it would still be unclear which as 'commoners' could get rich through trade and there were upper class people that did break the law - though the crimes they mostly committed were social crimes that would get you cast as an outsider from society (this could be reason for moving out as well) as there were such easy things that could ruin your social name - women got the worst end of it - like if she were to date a married man - these weren't crimes in one sense you'd get shipped off - but some left people moving away, committing suicide or living miserably - the famous female writer who fell in love with a married man ran off with him to the rest of Europe, perhaps you could delude with yourself that you ancestors were romantic and wanted to start life in a new land away from the stupidities of England's stuck up society.

[edit]

Oops you said 'smart English people', I hardly qualify, but I squeezed out an answer

Hakuna Matata
Ankillito
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 20:44 Edited at: 16th Jul 2007 20:47
So, Rice (or Ryce) would be a commoner name, right?

Here's the funny twist:
My father's family name is Chamberlain, which is a servant to royalty. Is it possible that at one point my father's ancestors watched my mother's ancestors get sentenced to enslavement in Australia? That's just scary...

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 20:55 Edited at: 16th Jul 2007 20:56
I think so, I would make a joke to wind up Cian Rice about it, but I haven't seen him post for a while so it wouldn't be worth the thought.

Though it could be a name dug up through trade - as names tended to be associated with jobs etc. it could be acquired with trading with Eastern countries. But this is guess work - you may need to look it up.

Chamberlain - servant names would probably be common.

Quote: "Is it possible that at one point my father's ancestors watched my mother's ancestors get sentenced to enslavement in Australia? That's just scary..."


Probably not, so many people were sentenced and the royalty wouldn't pay much attention to who is being transported to Australia. Plus Chamberlain may stretch farther than that time and would probably mean that of the same time, your Chamberlain relatives may not have worked for royalty, probaly a high chance that they wouldn't. I have ancestors as 'Ironside' it doesn't necessarily mean all my ancestors were knights and nobles or that I'm related to Earl Ironside who was Earl for one of the Kings before the battle of hastings...Though it would be a nice thought.

Hakuna Matata
BatVink
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 21:17
The Seventh day adventists have a huge genealogy database. It used to be free, in line iwth their beliefs AFAIK. However, the internet turns good people bad, it's probably something you have to pay for these days. http://www.familysearch.org

H4ck1d
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 22:11 Edited at: 16th Jul 2007 22:12
Quote: "The Seventh day adventists have a huge genealogy database"


Actually it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints, or Mormons, not the seventh day adventists. I only know because I am one and both my parents use that site . It's still free though, as far as I know

@Ankillito - Both my parents are very involved with family history work and have done tons of research for people, for free. If you're seriously interested, feel free to send me an email and I can help you get some info to them so they can help you with your research.

[edit] I guess my email's not shown here, it's jeffsto2003--at--gmail.com

TEST OF WILL
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 22:32
I don't really know, but my ancestors where pirates
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 22:41
Yeargh! Me hearties.

That website might be useful (not sure if that's one my Mum looked upon), my Mum just did a book on our family history, hand made (though pages were printed), illustrated, designed and researched entirely on her own (photos from reletives, got stories from relatives and traced the history and got photos as far back as victorian times, showing that we had a wealthy family...shame we didn't see this wealth ) The book cost over £100 to make and she gave it my uncle as 50th bday present.

Of course, if the website isn't reliable enough for you, you could still trace the status of those names and try to make a guess of what they were doing in Australia.

Hakuna Matata
Ankillito
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 22:51
Wow, thx for the help - I'll pass it along. But is there some way to check England's records to see if they sentenced my ancestors or not? That would be cool, but I'm sure that any records from the paper days wouldn't survive this long...

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Cherd
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Posted: 16th Jul 2007 23:04
my granparents did quite a lot of geneology and got back to the 1400's on my grans side and 1500's on my grandas XD

And it was'nt just convicts sent to Australia round about that time, a lot of catholic orphans were sent there by the church to help colonise certain areas and build. Or so i believe.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 01:09
@Ank, I'n sure it may be possible, though it would take a lot of research, I don't know where you would look, but there are books and websites dedicated to tracing family history, perhaps they'll give the necessary advice. So get googling and searching on amazon

Hakuna Matata
Dazzag
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 10:04
Quote: "perhaps you could delude with yourself that you ancestors were romantic and wanted to start life in a new land away from the stupidities of England's stuck up society"
Depends when they went there. There was a reason why we sent crims to Australia originally.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Wiggett
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 13:36
To get the riff raff out of your overcrowded jail cells and put them to work in another land far away from you. Now we made a country that is better than yours, HA HA! although we still pay taxes to your queen.

Syndicate remastered: Corporate persuasion through urban violence.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 13:48
At least our country wasn't built by criminals

Hakuna Matata
indi
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 14:24
Im australian with norwegian and french heritage. My family moved here early in world war II.

The Vikings trounced the fair isle many times not to mention half of Europe right up into russia as did the romans and french etc. So do the aussies in most sports.

Every country is a criminal when it comes to war etc.
My grandfather by marriage on one side was english and en engineer for the dambusters.

Yes it was a place for england to drop off the hardened criminal.
There were colonies and there were criminal camps thousands of miles apart in some areas.

One fact you might not know is Australia was also the grounds against Hitler's aryan race.
Thats right, England was building a super force of humans just the same to counter act that mad man. Its become folklore of the bronzed aussie nowadays.

New Amsterdam, which is now New York was 8 million germans, 12 million irish etc etc at one stage. No! none of them were criminals. pfft.

BTW people were here before, just like in america, Vikings found the northern tip of canada first and the dutch bumped into australia first. However there was 5000 different and unique aboriginal cultures in both countries prior to white mans oppressed angle on history.

Quite frankly if you escaped the class driven society the lil druids ram-shackled together, your doing a lot better then those who stayed there
Australia now is one of the most multicultural places in the world, albeit a little more asian then any other subculture, however Ive got aussie mates who live all over the globe.
Some are criminals today without the heritage after they moved here on there own accord
Im not racist I hate them all with the same amount of disdain obvious joke.

Dazzag
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 18:46
Quote: "and put them to work in another land far away from you"
Yes, but also because it was a hell hole at the time. Not exactly sending them off to enjoy themselves in a bar in Sydney or anything.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 19:57
Quote: "Every country is a criminal when it comes to war etc."


How does war make them criminals?

Quote: "Are my ancestors convicts?"


Yes. Next question, please.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jul 2007 20:12
Quote: "How does war make them criminals?"


Indeed, as a criminal would have to commit a crime, as war tends to be perfectly legal, it stops it from being a crime. Though in a sense of 'moral' crime, then whether war is completely morally wrong all of the time would be up for debate.

Hakuna Matata
Ankillito
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 00:28 Edited at: 18th Jul 2007 04:28
Quote: "Yes. Next question, please."


Well, smarty-pants: What color is my car?

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/xt/xt_apollo_pic.php?i=1234759

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Chris K
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 01:18
Quote: "Australia now is one of the most multicultural places in the world"


Is Britain the most? It must be close, I remember reading somewhere that London was going to be the first place in the world to have no dominant race...?

France is also probably pretty high up the list.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
jasonhtml
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 01:36
no, isnt the U.S. the most multicultural place? with SOOO many different kinds of people here...

Phaelax
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 02:05
Quote: "The Seventh day adventists have a huge genealogy database. It used to be free, in line iwth their beliefs AFAIK. However, the internet turns good people bad, it's probably something you have to pay for these days. http://www.familysearch.org"


I don't like that website! I did a search for my family's last name, and even though only my grandpa was listed, it displayed his social security number!


Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 02:46
In Vancouver I believe Asians outnumber Caucasians.

Ankillito
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 04:14 Edited at: 18th Jul 2007 04:24
@jasonhtml: You may be right on a national scale, but races segregate each other in America. My school has a Hispanic majority, even in a "white" neighborhood, and supposedly, Idaho is still a bunch of white racists.

It's ironic that the Hispanic majority is still demanding more rights as a minority. Argh! I have to stop typing before I start ranting about illegal immigrants, those idiots. They don't realize that illegal immigrants are criminals - it's kinda in the name, you jerk. AND STOP BURNING THE FLAG OF THE COUNTRY YOU CLAIM TO WANT TO LIVE IN!!!! (idiots)



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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 05:18
You initiated the thread with an inquiry into whether your immigrant ancestors WERE criminals, and you now complain that many current immigrants ARE criminals. Your avatar seems to convey your stand on the latter topic. You are drifting into some disparaging ethnic comments which are not proper in these forums.
indi
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 05:29
locky Chu!

Ankillito
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 05:53
You're kinda right, Jeff. This is a sensitive issue, so let me say:

My references to Hispanic culture and illegal immigration are not tied in any way; I hate illegal immigrants on the basis of the legality, but value them as humans and a part of the economy. I also acknowledge that only some Hispanics are demanding to be superior.

anyway, as for my hypocrisy, I do not view it that way. As an American, I firmly believe that people can not be judged based on their ancestors - everyone is their own person. I'm just curious. I don't think that if my ancestors broke the law it makes me a criminal...

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vibe runner
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 06:03 Edited at: 18th Jul 2007 07:21
Quote: "[quote]Quote: "How does war make them criminals?""

Indeed, as a criminal would have to commit a crime, as war tends to be perfectly legal, it stops it from being a crime. Though in a sense of 'moral' crime, then whether war is completely morally wrong all of the time would be up for debate.[/quote]

A war crime is, by definition, the wanton destruction a losing country engages in.

One of the legal defences Germans could initiate at the Nuremburg Trials was if the Allies had committed the same act. That is if a German was brought before the trails, and showed the Allies had done the same crime, instead of those Allied commanders being prosecuted equally, the German was released.

However, crimes for which Germans and Japanese war-criminals were executed for have been repeated by the United States, among other countries. For example bombing farming dykes in North Korea (Germans were executed for doing the same in the Netherlands) and the targeting of rice-paddies to disrupt food production (Japanese were executed for exactly this crime). Each of these acts (among numerous others) were committed by America after the WW2 war-crimes trials. No American was prosectued for them.

When a country is powerful it tends to ignore its own war-crimes. Take the Mai Lai massacre. Hundreds and hundreds (it is thought around half-a-thousand) of unarmed Vietnamese villagers were systematically executed by American troops.

This slow, prolonged, and entirely successful orgy of killing included the gang-rape and murder of children.

It is difficult to imagine a worse war-crime.

Despite overwhelming evidence, and after the failed US cover-up orchestrated in-part by the self-proclaimed "liberal, compassionate, conservative" Colin Powell, only man convicted of murder in relation to this atrocity, William Calley of Charlie Company, was convicted and sentenced to life.

Yet just one day after this verdict President Nixon ordered him released pending appeal. Being a military matter, and not under civil jurisdiction, Commanding General of Fort Benning reduced his sentence to 20 years. The Secretary of the Army in a clemency action commuted confinement to ten years.

However, in all Calley served just over 3 and half months of house arrest in his quarters at Fort Benning, Georgia. Federal judge J. Robert Elliott freed him, pending appeal. That was the extent of his time in confinement (not jail). His conviction was quashed. He now manages a jewelry store.

Of the 26 men (of the entire company) initially charged, Lt Calley's was the only conviction.

My Lai is considered a reversal of the rules of war that were set in the Nuremberg and Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals. The tribunals set a precedent in history that no one may be excused from reprimand for war crimes because they were ordered to do so, that is "I was only following orders" was not reasonable grounds for war-crimes.

Secretary of the Army Howard Callaway was quoted in the New York Times for stating that Calley's sentence was reduced because Calley honestly believed that what he did was a part of his orders. This is in direct contradiction to the standards set in Nuremberg and Tokyo where German and Japanese soldiers were executed for similar actions.

A war-crime is what losers of wars do. What the soldiers of weak or failed states do.

[LINK REMOVED BY JEKU --- THIS ISN'T THE PLACE FOR THIS KIND OF THING. War can be a bad thing, but feel free to discuss this on a more appropriate forum than a programming one]
Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jul 2007 07:19
Nice job getting this locked, guys.

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