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Geek Culture / Microsoft will end up winning.

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Virtual X
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 03:38
^^^^

give him a good kiss on his a$$ aswell
Krilik
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 04:50
Quote: "Now I\'ll quickly cover what an SPE actually is; it\'s an acronym for \"Synergistic Processing Unit\", which for those wondering; no Synergistic is not a word.. it\'s something Sony/IBM have invented just to make it sound cool. I\'d also like to point out that really the word Processing also is a stretch here."


Yes it is. And its irrelevent to your point.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Synergistic%20

About your Blu-ray/DVD point. I fail to see how your argument about Blu-ray being more expensive affects the consumer argument here. Which is the perspective people are arguing from. In all reality it is cheaper for a consumer to purchase a Blu-ray game as opposed to a DVD game. My point, you can purchase Oblivion on the PC for $50 using DVDs, the same game using the same medium costs $60 on the Xbox 360, and again using the more "expensive" medium Blu-ray, $60 on the PS3. I want to hear the argument from the consumer perspective of how you are getting a good deal buying games on the Xbox 360 as opposed to the PS3. At least there is a "reason" why games are $10 more expensive than their PCs counterparts using Blu-ray. But when you look at a consumer perspective, or even a game producer perspective, they are taking advantage of this price markup.

Quote: "In reality, some products are better than others, and that's what the debate is about."


Which is still subjective. There are plenty of things wrong with the Wii that go unnoticed, but people are easily opinionated about Sony's mistakes. Which I think is the real debate. I don't think you're going to convince me that the PS3 is not a better product, in terms of its functionality, compared to both the Wii or 360. I will agree it is expensive, but its not overpriced. I will agree it does not seem like an appealing purchase right now. But there are still other negatives to purchasing both the Wii and 360 also.
Zappo
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 06:20 Edited at: 29th Jul 2007 06:33
There are a few points I would like to raise regarding Raven's post. don't worry, its not an argumentative or humongous post

The reason the Power Architecture compatibility was chosen was simply because its a proven link to a current architecture, and supports multiple operating systems. Existing Power applications can apparently be run without modification on the Cell with the idea of making porting things across easier. To develop a completely new system could have taken 10 years (bare in mind the idea for the Cell CPU was conceived in around 2001 IIRC) and would have been even more of a shock to developers. At least this way programmers have a conventional platform they are familiar with to start from.

The SPEs are a little more clever than you give them credit for. They are dynamically configurable to provide support for content protection, have local memory, asynchronous coherent DMA, and a large unified register file to improve memory bandwidth. You mention that streaming is difficult to do, but it does do it well. The SPEs can be set up with serial or parallel pipelines to allow streams to go from one to another, each performing a task on it.

When you say its not a multicore processor it does have dual threaded, dual-issue PPE (Power Processor Element) with on-chip memory controller, and a controller for a configurable I/O interface, as well as the 8 SPEs. There is a high-bandwidth on-chip coherent bus and high bandwidth memory for power hungry applications and for interaction between the processor elements. The PPEs and SPEs can also share address space which has got to make things speedy. The whole design is 'short-wire' (no long wires) to limit communication delays every cycle. The core of the Cell interleaves instructions from two computational threads at the same time. This could be called a two-way multiprocessor with shared dataflow. It makes best use of issue slots for maximum efficiency and to reduce pipeline depth. To give an idea of speed, IBM state that simple arithmetic functions execute and forward their results in two cycles and double-precision floating-point instruction executes in ten cycles.

The Cell processor also has built-in support for virtualisation meaning you can actually have multiple operating systems running at the same time (like virtual PCs). A big part of the design brief also included CPU support for networking and communication. They have done this by making each of the SPEs capable of autonomously scheduling and receiving DMAs as well as interrupts so networking or user input can be acknowledged and dealt with immediately.

I am guessing that most developers for it are probably writing for the single threaded PPE - as with other systems because its the easiest to do (and most familiar). This could be why people say the power is not yet being fully utilised. The PPE in the Cell supports SIMD (Single-Instruction, Multiple-Data architecture) which has been shown to speed up multimedia applications (and gaming) and is also inside PC processors. Compilers to generate SIMD instructions are still maturing though. Once developers are familiar with developing for SIMD on the PPE they can then begin to move these instructions over to the SPEs which also support SIMD. That would really improve efficiency but may take a little while. Another hurdle for developers which can be used to greatly increase performance is the management of the local store memory. This has to be done by the programmer or using premade libraries. If this can be looked after by the compiler then it should make things much easier and faster.

You talk about memory being an issue too, but they have improved on other processors in the way that is utilised too to prevent the old 'memory wall' problem which would have an adverse affect on performance (i.e. there is a limit on memory so sometimes having more doesn't improve performance due to the overhead of managing it). The SPEs have another level of memory hierarchy beyond the registers of other processor architectures. This allows for a large number of memory transactions to be in flight simultaneously without requiring what they call 'deep speculation' that other processors use. Also, the new Rambus XDR DRAM memory delivers 12.8 GB/s per 32-bit memory channel, of which two are supported for a total bandwidth of 25.6 GB/s.

Your point that the word 'synergistic' is made up could also be applied to the word 'pentium'. That only existed since Intel made it up in 1993. 'Synergistic' does apply to something new so I think we can forgive STI for choosing a new name (however much it sounds like a 'buzzword' )

For anyone interested, more info on the way the Cell works is described in the IBM paper entitled Introduction to the Cell multiprocessor.

This post has ended up longer than I intended. Sorry if I bored anyone.
Chris K
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 15:53
Quote: "I am guessing that most developers for it are probably writing for the single threaded PPE"


Good one.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Commander in Chief
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Posted: 29th Jul 2007 19:59
In my opinion...

PS3 = McClaren F1
360 = Lamborghini Gallardo
Wii = Dodge Charger

Heh, more car comparisons.

The PS3 has amazing graphics, incredibly life-like. I played a demo of the new Gran Turismo at Target on the PS3, and the only problem is that you can't hit the 3D crowd (yes, it is no longer 2D). Otherwise, it is very realistic, especially with car physics.

I have not seen the 360 in action, but I'd only get it for Halo 3.

In case you didn't know, "Next-gen" in game consoles, is "Current-gen" in computer graphics. I have an nVidia 8500 GT and BattleField 2, and I must say that BF2 competes with the console graphics. Also, to correct many...

PS3, 360, Wii is Current Gen. Not next gen. Atleast, not anymore. Have to wonder what the next gen will be. Only 3-4 more years!

~Chief

Hardware: nVidia GeForce 8500GT 256mb, 240gb HD Space, Pentium 4 CPU 2.80GHz, 512mb RAM, Realtek HD Audio
Software: 3Ds Max 9, Adobe Photoshop CS8
Zappo
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 02:11
Quote: "Quote: "I am guessing that most developers for it are probably writing for the single threaded PPE"

Good one."

Mmmm. I obviously meant that they are using a traditional and easy method for software development, rather than taking advantage of the other features available. I was tired and it was late - thats my excuse.

Having looked into this whole thing a bit more I can see why there is such a problem comparing the power of the different processors. The architecture is just sooo different. Its a bit like the old RISC argument in the 1980's. For those too young to remember, RISC processors (reduced instruction set computers) had a very small list of instructions they understood. When people compared these to traditional CISC processors (complex instruction set computers) some people would say "well obviously a CPU which understands more instructions will be faster". This just wasn't the case. The reduced instruction set actually made things better. The designers could concentrate on making all of the instructions as efficient as possible rather than having to compromise and decide which would probably be used the most. Also, all the instructions where small and the same size making decoding very fast. The extra transistor space could then be used for larger caches, extra functionality or simply left empty to make production cheaper, lower power consumption and make smaller chips. The cache for the instruction stream and the data stream was often separate too so both caches could be accessed simultaneously. Best of all, compilers were much simpler to make. The conclusion being that even though it took more CPU instructions to do the same things as conventional processors the speed increases meant they outperformed them. New techniques developed later turned this around but for a while RISC was king.

I know this is not really relevant to the 360/PS3 debate but I wanted to point out that sometimes saying that a CPU doesn't have 'this feature' or 'that feature' doesn't mean it will perform worse. There will be reasons why its not there (usually because its no longer needed).
In my opinion (for what its worth), at the moment the 360 and PS3 are probably about equal in terms of what they can do. If developers are willing to learn and really hone the new features of the Cell processors rather than just port stuff across or rely on old style programming techniques, then the PS3 could do a lot more.
Chris K
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 14:09
Why say that about the Cell though, and not about the Xenon (<- ?).

I don't why people always say that and not:

Quote: "If developers are willing to learn and really hone the new features of the Xenon processors rather than just port stuff across or rely on old style programming techniques, then the 360 could do a lot more."


-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Van B
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:42 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 15:51
Hey, anyone checked out the new RE5 trailer?
That game looks absolutely fantastic, not the graphics so much, but the atmosphere is spot on! - 360 owners should download it and have a look, the new zombies look freaky as hell, it's mostly gameplay footage and it's a lot like RE4 in style from what I can see - there's just a helluva lot more going on this time, can't wait.

Edit, Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux5s2Q3LGSY&NR=1

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 16:24
Hurrah! Game play! Looks great, now that's something to look forward to.

Hakuna Matata
Chris K
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:00
Apparently the new (Falcon) chips (which run cooler) are going in before Halo 3 comes out, and also the two heatsinks as standard, it looks almost certain that there will be a small price cut before Halo 3 (Toys 'R' Us and Walmart both seem to say Premium 360 will be $349). I recon they'll drop the Premimum to £249 in the UK.

If all that happens, I won't be able to resist I don't think .

RE5 trailer looks amazing. Love the bit when he lets rip that punch.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
GatorHex
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:06 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 17:08
Quote: "(Toys 'R' Us and Walmart both seem to say Premium 360 will be $349). I recon they'll drop the Premimum to £249 in the UK.
"


£249 = $500 I'd wouldn;t call that price drop fair $150 extra for putting a 3 pin plug on it, nice work if you can get it!

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Van B
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:48
Yeah the RE5 punch looks great - it just seems so much more in ones face now , especially those ducks to avoid getting his head lopped off. Anyone know when it's due?, there's rumours about the Wiki saying it's delayed until 09, but I can't believe that, they can't show us a video like that then say it'll be another 2 years in the making!. Jeez Capcom, get it out in time for xmas and I'll pay extra!.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Zappo
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 01:31
Quote: "Why say that about the Cell though, and not about the Xenon (<- ?)."

Probably because its not such a new concept. It really is based on the PowerPC chip rather than just being compatible so its capabilities can be estimated. Like the Cell though its the programmers and compilers which must optimize their code to take advantage of its features. I am sure there is more that can be done with it than is currently being done buts its not as new an architecture as the Cell so it makes sense that the learning curve on the Cell has a longer way to go.

That RE5 trailer does look good. The atmosphere and the number of enemies at close quarters is very scary. I am a bit partial to a good zombie game myself

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