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Geek Culture / A bit of game research

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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 13:39
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Just a bit of simple game research to get an idea of how people like their games balanced. Feel free to comment. This is just really to guide me a bit with my current project. Feel free to turn it into a discussion too if you like:

Choose the most appropriate statement, or make your own comment:
1) Game difficulty ->
a. I like games to be difficult from the outset and require a lot of work to complete
b. I like games to gradually increase in difficulty and be challenging towards the end
c. I like games to be fairly easy so that I can relax and enjoy them from start to finish

2) Controlling skill elements ->
a. I like games to involve lots of skill with the controls, so that skillful people will always be better than less skillful people, and the game rewards time spent mastering the game controls.
b. I like games to have a small skill learning curve, so that the controls can be mastered in a few hours, and the playing field between players is fairly even.
c. I like games to have minimal skill requirements so that they're instantly pick-up-and-playable.

3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
a. I like games with a high emphasis on these sort of restrictions, so you have to constantly preserve and look for ammo, race against the clock and monitor your health in order to have any chance of success.
b. I like games to have these elements, but only to add a small challenge on top of the core gameplay.
c. I like games where ammo and time challenges are pretty irrelevant so I don't have to worry about them, and can concentrate on the core gameplay.

4) Gameplay Pace ->
a. I like games to be frantic throughout, requiring non-stop concentration.
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.
c. I like games to be relaxing and not require much effort.

5) Realism ->
a. I price authenticity and realism highly, and expect the game to behave much like it would if it was real.
b. I like realism, but I'm happy for the game to bend the rules in order to make it more fun.
c. I don't really care if that game is realistic or not, so long as it's fun.

6) Story ->
a. Game stories are extremely important, and games without story lines or poor story lines don't interest me.
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.
c. I couldn't care less about story lines. They never really grip me anyway.

Ok, they're the key questions I wanted to get some feedback on. As I said, feel free to just use the answers I gave, or provide your own if you want to discuss further. It's all good stuff.



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 13:56
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Quote: "1) Game difficulty ->
a. I like games to be difficult from the outset and require a lot of work to complete
b. I like games to gradually increase in difficulty and be challenging towards the end
c. I like games to be fairly easy so that I can relax and enjoy them from start to finish"


A bit of 'B' and 'C', but probably more 'B'

Quote: "2) Controlling skill elements ->
a. I like games to involve lots of skill with the controls, so that skillful people will always be better than less skillful people, and the game rewards time spent mastering the game controls.
b. I like games to have a small skill learning curve, so that the controls can be mastered in a few hours, and the playing field between players is fairly even.
c. I like games to have minimal skill requirements so that they're instantly pick-up-and-playable."


B.

Quote: "3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
a. I like games with a high emphasis on these sort of restrictions, so you have to constantly preserve and look for ammo, race against the clock and monitor your health in order to have any chance of success.
b. I like games to have these elements, but only to add a small challenge on top of the core gameplay.
c. I like games where ammo and time challenges are pretty irrelevant so I don't have to worry about them, and can concentrate on the core gameplay."


B.


Quote: "4) Gameplay Pace ->
a. I like games to be frantic throughout, requiring non-stop concentration.
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.
c. I like games to be relaxing and not require much effort."



B.

Quote: "5) Realism ->
a. I price authenticity and realism highly, and expect the game to behave much like it would if it was real.
b. I like realism, but I'm happy for the game to bend the rules in order to make it more fun.
c. I don't really care if that game is realistic or not, so long as it's fun."


A. But really depends, a turn based game isn't realistic in one sense, but I know you're not working on something turn based, so I'd pick A.

Quote: "6) Story ->
a. Game stories are extremely important, and games without story lines or poor story lines don't interest me.
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.
c. I couldn't care less about story lines. They never really grip me anyway."


Depends on the genre, I'm a real plot lover, I think in terms of plot and gameplay, there should be a balance, I'm assuming it's 'our' project you're referring this research to, I think a base plot with some good twist and turns, that keeps people interested in the end result, but avoid make it focused on that one plot. Just make sure the plot isn't crap as what I say. As I love to write plots, we could work on that together, if it is for that project.

Hakuna Matata
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Van B
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 14:47
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1) Game difficulty ->
b. I like games to gradually increase in difficulty and be challenging towards the end
Back in the day we used to solve games socially, like in the school playground we'd all discuss games we were stuck on, nowadays with the internet it's less of a social thing - but maybe games are more linear these days, more linear than publishers would have us believe. Before proper save systems were introduced we would repeatedly play games until we beat them, so we had to constantly improve to progress, that's pretty rare these days - usually people complete a game, cheat if they get stuck, then trade it in.

2) Controlling skill elements ->
b. I like games to have a small skill learning curve, so that the controls can be mastered in a few hours, and the playing field between players is fairly even.
This is most relevant when considering systems like XBox Live, where it's often the case that your playing in ranked matches with players of similar skill level - it can be a pain when there are unlockables, like in BF2142 when your up against experienced players who also have better weapons and stuff. It's important to allow excellent players to excel, but options to also make things fairer for noobs would be ideal.

3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
c. I like games where ammo and time challenges are pretty irrelevant so I don't have to worry about them, and can concentrate on the core gameplay.
Nothing annoys me more than being shoved through a game via time limits, it kills any sort of exploration - I find it particularly annoying in FPS games which I think should allow the player to play at their own pace.

4) Gameplay Pace ->
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.
There should always be rewards, even if it is just a little breathing space after killing an enemy. Like when you kill a boss in a FPS game, you should be allowed to go have a good look at their corpse, check out the powerups you might have missed, tea-bag them, there's never enough glory when you kill a boss. The only game I think that actually made me feel like I'd done a good job was Fable, because of the nature of that game people would comment on you for example, it kinda made the whole 'being a hero' thing more tangible. That game let you sandbox quite a lot, but just having someone gossip about you was great I thought.


5) Realism ->
c. I don't really care if that game is realistic or not, so long as it's fun.
I play all sorts of games, but it does annoy me when there's something silly, something that just doesn't make sense.
For example when in a FPS you have to escort someone past zombies or aliens or whatever, there's usually not enough effort put into what NPC's do. If I was being led past aliens and corpses, or through a warzone, then I wouldn't stand there with a blank look on my face, I'd grab a gun and help out!. A good example of thoughtful NPC's is the original Halo game, I liked how the marines tried to help the player as if their life depended on it, and it did funnily enough.

6) Story ->
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.
Really this depends on the game, some games like Hotel Dusk are very heavily plot based, whereas games like RE4 don't really require you to follow the plot, but a lot of effort is put into it anyway, so it makes for a great game IMO - the plot should only be there if it adds to the game.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 14:49
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1.b
2.b
3.c
4.b
5.b
6.a

I never tell the truth.
That ain't a paradox.
I always tell lies is though.
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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:20
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Thanks chaps, and in particular Van B. Nice useful response. The idea here is just for me to get a feel for what bugs people and what people like on a very high level, so I can put more emphasis into some things and less into others.

Quote: "Depends on the genre, I'm a real plot lover, I think in terms of plot and gameplay, there should be a balance, I'm assuming it's 'our' project you're referring this research to, I think a base plot with some good twist and turns, that keeps people interested in the end result, but avoid make it focused on that one plot. Just make sure the plot isn't crap as what I say. As I love to write plots, we could work on that together, if it is for that project."


Yeah, I'm happy to explore a plot for our game, so long as it isn't forced by us. As Van B said, the plot should only be there if it adds to the game. So we'll have to experiment with the ideas we have and see whether it lends itself to a complex or very simple plot. More by email.


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GatorHex
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:27 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 15:28
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b) all the way!

I hate online games were other player can cheat!

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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dark coder
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:29
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Quote: "1) Game difficulty ->"


B

Quote: "2) Controlling skill elements ->"


A by far, I can't stand dummie designed controls, a good example being the transition from Desert Combat helicopters to Battlefield 2 ones.

Quote: "3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->"


I hate time challenges, limited ammo and health are fine though. I prefer taking a game seriously depending on the genre and going for the cool way to finish them, i.e. using stealth tactics as much as possible or using some melee weapons to add to the fun, having a time limit forces you to rush through this.

Quote: "4) Gameplay Pace ->"


B

Quote: "5) Realism ->"


B

Quote: "6) Story ->"


Depends on the type of game I guess B.

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Deathead
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 15:38
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Quote: "A by far, I can't stand dummie designed controls, a good example being the transition from Desert Combat helicopters to Battlefield 2 ones."
It would be good to have tutorial on how to control but no dummy designed controls now that will be good. But if you play any FPS games and enjoy them then in a way you are using dummie controls.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 16:03
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Quote: "b) all the way!

I hate online games were other player can cheat!"


See what I mean? Do you seeee what I meeeeaannnn???

1) B - I think this is what's to be expected from any game, really. Any game with a point to it, anyway.

2) B - Some people only have one hand, or half a hand. I like to be able to own them without their excuses.

3) A - I like these types of games because there's more of a problem solving element to them. Ex: You have 3 bullets and 4 bad guys. But one of the bad guys eats bullets and poops out live nukes. Much more strategy and skill involved. And poopnukes.

4) B - Games that are non-stop make me physically sick. Unless, of course, there are bright lights and shiny objects, then I have no choice but to play and enjoy the pain.

5) A & C - If the game is set in the world as we know it, then I appreciate the realism. Otherwise, realism doesn't apply and it should be fun! fun! fun!

6) A - That's the one major thing I look for in any game. Not only to have a story, but to make sure I'm aware of it. The last game to do that for me was FF8. 8 years ago...

"Oh hey, nice website Jimmy, it's really nice and fancy." -- That C++ Nerd
Visit. Website. NOW!
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jasonhtml
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 16:53 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 16:58
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1) Game difficulty ->
a. I like games to be difficult from the outset and require a lot of work to complete

difficult, not stupid. lots of game make it more "difficult" by having NPC's with xray vision, magnetic bullets/autoaim, more health, ect. if the game gets harder, the NPC's should just get smarter

2) Controlling skill elements ->
a. I like games to involve lots of skill with the controls, so that skillful people will always be better than less skillful people, and the game rewards time spent mastering the game controls.

3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
a. I like games with a high emphasis on these sort of restrictions, so you have to constantly preserve and look for ammo, race against the clock and monitor your health in order to have any chance of success.

this can make games fun in ways some people dont think of. for example, a friend and i were playing Halo 2 and we were a couple levels in, where the covanent were boarding the ship and we were fighting them from the railings above. but, since it was on legendary, we needed a lot of ammo,but couldn't go down below to pick up more, so we made many trips to pick up ammo from the previous room and dropped it all in a huge pile. we had a huge stock of ammo that filled this need. it made the game a challenge, but it was really fun!

4) Gameplay Pace ->
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.

you need to relax sometime without turning of the game dont you?

5) Realism ->
b. I like realism, but I'm happy for the game to bend the rules in order to make it more fun.

if i shoot someone in the head with a sniper, he better die or im going to throw a fit

(but i dont like the rules bent too much...)

6) Story ->
a. Game stories are extremely important, and games without story lines or poor story lines don't interest me.

whats the point in making a game with no story line? it not only makes the game more interesting, but it also makes the game make more sense(especially if its in a fantasy setting)

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Grandma
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:25 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 17:25
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Difficulty: A+.

As hard as machine logic allows me to make without creating some sort of rift trough time and space.

Learning curve: B-C

Easily playable, but with some small challenges with response time.

Resource Restrictions: A

Yes yes, LOTS of restrictions! Like you being alone with a slingshot Versus the UNIVERSE and beyond!

Gameplay Pace: B-C

Moderate to "relaxing".

Realism: C

Not a priority, as long as it's fun.

Story: A

A deep and interesting plot with twists is always nice. Stories often "make or break" it for me.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:39
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Quote: "1) Game difficulty ->
a. I like games to be difficult from the outset and require a lot of work to complete
b. I like games to gradually increase in difficulty and be challenging towards the end
c. I like games to be fairly easy so that I can relax and enjoy them from start to finish"

b

Quote: "2) Controlling skill elements ->
a. I like games to involve lots of skill with the controls, so that skillful people will always be better than less skillful people, and the game rewards time spent mastering the game controls.
b. I like games to have a small skill learning curve, so that the controls can be mastered in a few hours, and the playing field between players is fairly even.
c. I like games to have minimal skill requirements so that they're instantly pick-up-and-playable."

b

Quote: "3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
a. I like games with a high emphasis on these sort of restrictions, so you have to constantly preserve and look for ammo, race against the clock and monitor your health in order to have any chance of success.
b. I like games to have these elements, but only to add a small challenge on top of the core gameplay.
c. I like games where ammo and time challenges are pretty irrelevant so I don't have to worry about them, and can concentrate on the core gameplay."

b

Quote: "4) Gameplay Pace ->
a. I like games to be frantic throughout, requiring non-stop concentration.
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.
c. I like games to be relaxing and not require much effort."

b

Quote: "5) Realism ->
a. I price authenticity and realism highly, and expect the game to behave much like it would if it was real.
b. I like realism, but I'm happy for the game to bend the rules in order to make it more fun.
c. I don't really care if that game is realistic or not, so long as it's fun.
"

a

Quote: "6) Story ->
a. Game stories are extremely important, and games without story lines or poor story lines don't interest me.
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.
c. I couldn't care less about story lines. They never really grip me anyway."

a

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Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 17:41
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Thanks for the answers. I thought I'd answer the questions myself to perhaps encourage some debate.

1) Game difficulty ->
b. I like games to gradually increase in difficulty and be challenging towards the end

I really like to settle into games with some easy missions at the start which allow you to build up your skills gradually as the difficulty ramps up. I really don't like having to reload very often. I don't like playing the same bits over and over again trying to complete them, especially if they're linear and play the same way each time. If a game is linear and scripted, it needs to be challenging, but pretty much passable first time (usually) without reloading. Games that offer different methods to complete a challenge or are drastically different each time can be harder and require reloads, because you'll be having a different game experience on the next attempt.

2) Controlling skill elements ->
a. I like games to involve lots of skill with the controls, so that skillful people will always be better than less skillful people, and the game rewards time spent mastering the game controls.

The most rewarding game I've ever played is Live For Speed. It takes 10s of hours to really start to master it, and probably pushing 100 hours to be really good. Even then, when you play online, there are people that are always faster and are just naturally more talented that you know you'll never beat. It's the same as real racing. Put me behind a wheel as I'll never be a patch on a top rally driver.

These games allow you to truly master them, achieves something and become "at one" with them, as cheesy as that sounds. You get a real sense of accomplishment. Games that can be mastered more easily and put people on an even playing field can still be fun, but you'll never get the same challenge and addiction. Examples of games like this for me would be Live For Speed (from a realtime control point of view) and Total War series (from a mastering war strategy point of view).

3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
b. I like games to have these elements, but only to add a small challenge on top of the core gameplay.

I like to have to consider these elements and budget for them. I don't want infinite ammo. I want to be forced to use short bursts on my machine gun, or only empty my minigun if I know I can fall back on my shutgun shells. I don't mind time restraints, so long as they're reasonable ones. I dont like time attack racers where you have 2 seconds to get to the next check point, but I think games where they say "here's a mission and you have 20 minutes to complete it" which allows you some thinking time and freedom is ok. It encourages a bit of tension.

4) Gameplay Pace ->
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.

5) Realism ->
a. I price authenticity and realism highly, and expect the game to behave much like it would if it was real.

I'm one for realism in games that are based in a real world. So I find it frustrating in FPSs when you unload a clip into someones face and it doesnt kill them. This is the main reason why I never really liked HL2. I was shooting people in the face and they weren't dying. That's horrific in my opinion. I'm happy to accept monsters and robots won't die from head shots, but put me in an environment where I feel it's real and present me with unrealistic things, and I won't be happy.

Again, I hate arcade racers like Ridge Racer. Cool cars, lush environments and then completely devoid of physics and realistic car handling. If you're going to put me in a car in a realistic world, make it handle like a car, otherwise make a hover-racer like wipeout, or a game like mario cart where I can accept it's for fun and not supposed to be real.

6) Story ->
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.

I rarely find game stories gripping, so I'm not too fussed about them, although a good story can add something to the game. I like to have a good story in there, but the gameplay is far more important and a game that plays well doesnt need a good story imo.


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Dazzag
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 18:22
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1) Game difficulty ->
c. I like games to be fairly easy so that I can relax and enjoy them from start to finish
Sad I know, but I feel better overall about a game if it is fairly easy.

2) Controlling skill elements ->
c. I like games to have minimal skill requirements so that they're instantly pick-up-and-playable.
This is overall. Some games that are very complicated put you off, but games you really want to play will make you have to learn to play more.

3) Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions ->
c. I like games where ammo and time challenges are pretty irrelevant so I don't have to worry about them, and can concentrate on the core gameplay.
Just want to blast away. You don't see them running out of ammo much in the Matrix...

4) Gameplay Pace ->
b. I like games to mix-up the pace, so there are moments of frantic action mixed with slower paced moments where I can relax.
Bit of both is good. Better if it is planned out and not random, so you know what to expect if you play it again.

5) Realism ->
c. I don't really care if that game is realistic or not, so long as it's fun.
Realism? Meh, who cares? I don't want to be out of the game after getting a slight wound, I want to survive a nuclear attack in my Exoskeleton goddamnit...

6) Story ->
b. I like a good game story, but it's not important for me to enjoy the game - it's just a bonus.
A story is more important if the game is more an adventure. But games like Max Payne where you basically are playing a more advanced space invaders I don't give a monkeys what is torturing his soul. Stuff that, blow away the bad guys through the window in slow motion

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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Dr Manette
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 18:37
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1.b
2.b
3.c
4.b
5.c
6.b


BioFox Games...http://www.biofoxgames.com
Life after death http://www.biofoxgames.com/comic/index.php
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Raven
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Posted: 27th Jul 2007 19:50 Edited at: 27th Jul 2007 19:52
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Q: Game difficulty
A: I like games to gradually increase difficulty as you play them, but this said while I want them to get more difficult it needs to be balanced with new features in the game.

Tomb Raider is a good example of this, as it progressively gets more difficult as you become more used to the characters movement; but it doesn't throw you in to something that requires more skill right away. Same with Killzone, enemies don't just get replaced by more difficult ones; but the more difficult ones are added slowly until they replace the easier ones.

Q: Controlling skill elements
A: I enjoy this aspect to be balanced, in a way that it is very easy to just pick-up and play. So you can do the basics of the game without reading any manuals or anything, however as you play further and get used to it that there are new things you can do or allow you to have different styles of control to do something.

Soul Calibur is a good example of this, because you can pick-up any character and just bash the buttons. Voila you can beat on each other; maybe discover a few move combos that work. As you get more in to the game though you learn more combos, the block deflect, etc. and this makes the game more enjoyable than it was origially as you can have some good epic gameplay. So while yeah it's pick-up'n'play it also provides the ability to be more skilled, and there is no guarentee that a button basher or skilled player will have any particular advantage due to other gameplay elements.

Q: Ammo, Time, Health etc. Restrictions
I like games to have a bit of realism to them, without making it so realistic it becomes either too difficult or frustrating.
So really this echos the difficulty of the game on the whole, or should at atleast. You balance this with the difficulty for the player, and is one of the most difficult parts of development for the engine balancing and level designers.
Focus for this should be based on style, and the overall difficulty wanted.

Q: Gameplay Pace
This should echo the story and style of the game.
Sometimes a game needs to be fast and frantic, others it needs to be slow and eerie. It simply depends on what is happening in the story, control system (if they can handle it) and what is happening at any given time. A good developer will have it simply echo the story and atmosphere they're trying to create.

Q: Realism
Realism should always be balanced with the entertainment value, in some instances can just plainly be ignored for the sake of a good game.

If the story has a realistic feel and you want that atmosphere for people to believe something is really happening then realism is necessary to be as much as possible without taking away from the fun factor.

An example would be Metal Gear Solid Series: while they're quite realistic in their setting and gameplay, the story and characters are quite fantasy; they can do things normal ppl just can't. This makes it quite awesome to watch the cut-scenes and enjoy the gameplay knowing that while it has that unrealistic air about it.. the actual gameplay is about as real as it can be without causing it to be too difficult.

Q: Story
Depending on the game being made, depends heavily on how much story is in there. With the exception of puzzle/traditional games, every game needs a story. Even if it's just a short blurb setting the scene. The more story you put in depends on how much you want the player to feel for the characters.

good examples for this is Half-Life 2, there is very little storyline; and the game on a whole is just situations to set the atmosphere. To me this failed to draw me into the game as much as if the game had something more in-depth to make me actually care about the characters (especially Gordon); where-as on the flip-side of the coin is Doom 3 that had too much storyline between areas so while you understood everything that was going on.. it just ruined the whole atmosphere to the game.

A game that has a very good storyline (in the same genre) is Killzone, because it's used to brief you between sections on what you need to do next; but also it's there to get you feeling for the characters and understanding the betrayal going on. Not so much story that it basically rules the game, but not so little that you felt like while the game itself was good; there was little point to everything.

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