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Geek Culture / enharmonic white notes- musicians question

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indi
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:09
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Im currently studying music and a real beginner at that.
Ive purchased a keyboard and learning with this instrument first.

For anyone that has travelled down that road, can you say in your own words what these are.
From my understanding they dont literally exist but count as dual notes.

B# sharp
Cb flat etc.

Im jumping ahead as my learning book says to wait for lesson 3 for a better explination.
I would love to hear different theories in explaining it.


I reckon we need a musicians forum, its a major aspect of games AUDIO / MUSIC
It would help the majority of us to explore this dimension.
It would also cover a lot of posts that can get a place in the sun.

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:17 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 13:19
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I have no idea what they are. Never heard of them. Don't care! Mind you, I don't really see the use in music theory for digital composers. An understanding of scale and harmonies is about all you need, imo, and even then you should be able to work them out by ear.

It's subjective though. Some people like to do things "properly", and some people just mess about and learn as they go. I don't think there's a right or a wrong way since it's an expressive art form. So as long as the end results turn out ok, it's all good.

As for a music forum, I wouldn't say no. I would suggest an "audio" forum though for sound engineering/fx and music discussion.


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Veron
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:29
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I play guitar, and I might start playing drums as well sometime soon, it's good fun!


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indi
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:29
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Quote: " I don't really see the use in music theory for digital composers. An understanding of scale and harmonies is about all you need "


what do other professional and advanced musicians think of this statement.?

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 13:40 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 13:42
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Yeah, would be interesting to see what people think. It might depend on which area of composition you came from too.

I know my music GCSE at school helped get me started with a basic understanding of scales (i.e. tone tone semi-tone tone etc etc. skips on major and minor scales). That means I knew how to select notes depending on the key that should go together, but that was about it. I thought I'd actually developed me own scales later on, but it turned out they were real scales that I'd just figured out by ear. Same with harmonies.

I guess my point is, music theory can give you a head start and save on some self-learning through trail and error and experimentation, but I don't think anymore than the basics are really necessary. The majority of trackers I knew from the tracker days had no musical theory, and many are fantastic composers now.


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Grandma
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 14:30
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Quote: "I reckon we need a musicians forum, its a major aspect of games AUDIO / MUSIC"


I couldn't agree more if my life depended on it. geek culture is the closest you can get to that area, but music\sound FX isn't really offtopic in the sense of gamedev. So it still wouldn't fit there.

I would really like to se a section of the forum dedicated to sound FX/music. It is afterall 50% of the gaming experience we're talking about here.

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 14:39
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B# sharp is basically B#, sharped. So:

If you sharp a note you go to your right, If you flatten a note you move to the left (a semitone).

so B#,# is two semitones to the right, or C#./Db

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 14:41 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 14:42
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the flats and sharps are the notes between major notes except between b and c, and e and f. any sharp can be the next major's flat, like d# is also e flat. the scale/key really determines what the naming convention is for those notes at any given time. look into the cycle of fifths, and the scales of music to get a better idea.

I came from a musically talented family/background so luckily I have a natural "ear". I was able to teach myself to play four instruments, but I did briefly take guitar lessons when I was a kid. I didnt get much out of it playing-wise but I did learn some basic stuff like some theory, basic scales, pentatonic scales etc.

at the end of the day there's only 12 notes in all of music, its only the octaves that change. do what sounds right and you wont go wrong.

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empty
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 14:47 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 14:48
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Basically an enharmonic is a name of a note that is equivalent to another note. For example in the 12 tone equal temperament (the standard tuning these days) B-sharp = C.
The idea behind it is to stress the functionality of that particular note. While the note (pitch) is the same it can have different meanings in the harmonic context.

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:00
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Apparently even though it is widely excepted that B# == C they are not actually perfect 'sound-alikes' eg. different frequencys (but the difference is marginal)

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empty
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:02
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Quote: "Apparently even though it is widely excepted that B# == C they are not actually perfect 'sound-alikes' eg. different frequencys (but the difference is marginal)"

In the 12 tone equal temperament they're absolutely identical. That's the idea of that tuning .

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PowerSoft
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:06
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I see...learn something new everyday then

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GatorHex
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:15 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 16:27
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if you are on the white/ivory key C the black key up/right is Csharp but if you're on the D key and go up/left it's a Dflat even thought it's the same black/ebony key it depends which finger moves to it (or which direction the tone is going in) as to what you call it. Well I didn't do music at school but that's my guess from experience of messing around on midi keyboards

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:25
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theres no black keys between b and c, and e and f

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:40
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There is. You just can't see it because you are not powerful or enlightened enough young one.


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GatorHex
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 15:53 Edited at: 30th Jul 2007 16:32
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I think the white keys with black keys are called whole steps
the ones without black keys are half steps. So there are 12 half steps in an octave.

I suppose you could have all white keys as half steps (and do away witht he black keys) but then your hand wouldn't be able to span them. So i'm guessing the black half step keys were put in to shorten the physical distance of an octave so it fits in an average hand span.

so B#(half step up) = C
and Cb(half step down) = B
because they are half steps (don't have a black key inbetween)

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indi
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 16:38
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thanks guys

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 17:40
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I think it's tone and semi-tone rather than step and half-step, but that's probably me just being pedantic.


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PowerSoft
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 21:52
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semitone/tone '1 step' / '2 step'

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 22:09
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Quote: "semitone/tone '1 step' / '2 step'"


semitone/tone '1/2 step' / 'Full step'

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Crit
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 22:17
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If you are in a key signature such as B Major, every c on the staff will be a c sharp. So if you want to write a c natural, you would either have to use the natural sign or write b#.
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PowerSoft
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Posted: 30th Jul 2007 23:23
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CattleRustler. I know but i'm on about the actual keys themselves,

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Jeku
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 07:46
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I've always understood E# = F, Fb = E, B# = C and Cb = B.

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empty
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Posted: 31st Jul 2007 22:49 Edited at: 31st Jul 2007 22:50
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Quote: "I've always understood E# = F, Fb = E, B# = C and Cb = B."

Correct. As mentioned above: same note, different name. An example: Take the F# major scale. The key signature has 6 sharps and you'll end up with
F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E# (enharmonic to F), F#
Due to the harmonic context (a scale with 6 sharps in the key signature) we use E# rather that F because if we do not, we'd need to notate a natural sign in front of every "F" that occurs in the score. And that'd be messy.

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