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DarkBASIC Discussion / 2D Articulated Skeleton

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Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 16:09 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 16:59
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Last night I decided to try and make a 2D object with limbs. Here is some cool stuff that I made along the way

Here's the final version of the first limb system I made.
Click on the joint you want to rotate and move the mouse horizontally.


After making that and finding that making a gradient is pretty easy, I played around with the idea. Still can't get a diagonal gradient across the whole screen


After messing around with that I messed around with my 2D limbs
I call this the Spiral Whip! Can't seem to get it to curl into the centre



Finally, here is my stick man skeleton: I haven't added any joint angle limits yet so he's "flexible"
Click on the joint you want to rotate and move the mouse horizontally.


Work In Progress:-
3-Axis rotation of limbs
Animation memory and playback
Editor to create and animate custom 2D models

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Latch
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 19:16
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Pretty neat!

Now how about an array that stores the frame number, the limb clicked on, and how much it is rotated? Then, run through the frames to create an animation.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 19:27
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That would be cool, and make for a really easy animation tool
I've run into a problem though, I'm going to have to add a 3D aspect to this so that the stickman can turn around.
Will give it ago and post back with my progress

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Latch
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 19:40 Edited at: 5th Aug 2007 19:41
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Fake rotate around y axis



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Libervurto
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Posted: 5th Aug 2007 23:15 Edited at: 5th Aug 2007 23:26
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Thanks latch
I'm a bit confused how to implement that in my code.
Ahh cack I think I'm gonna have to basically re-create 3D to do this Why does it keep catching up with me lol

Why am I getting no posts?
I thought this was an original idea.

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 01:08 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 01:20
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wow!!!
nice
personally, i'd store each image under a filename(input by a user)and then combine (sprites)them for animation.
i will use this for animation for my character in darknights i'll also come up with some code to import images!
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pcRaider
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 11:31 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 19:17
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wonderful.

it code is err ( in DarkBasicPro )
~dline( Joint(par,0),Joint(par,1),Joint(lmb,0),Joint(lmb,1) )
FUNCTION ~dline(l,t,r,b) : `sp is for dotted lines!


this code is better.
_dline( Joint(par,0),Joint(par,1),Joint(lmb,0),Joint(lmb,1) )
FUNCTION _dline(l,t,r,b) : `sp is for dotted lines!
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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 16:53
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@PCRaider
Thanks
I've just been using the "~" so I know it is a function and not an array.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 16:55 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 16:56
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@DD
Your idea would work but kind of takes away the point of it being an articulated skeleton.
This WOULD be good for modeling animations wouldn't it
That's a good point, I'm gonna make a horse version

The model has shoulders but I'm gonna remove them for now until I put some rotation limits in.

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 17:44
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i worked on it last night.
i'll up load my little improvement later
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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 18:22 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 21:37
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here it is!
(slight change added)

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 21:23
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Here is what? lol

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 21:25 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 21:29
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lol, is this supposed to make it look like the computer is working hard

I kind of already said I didn't want to do it this way. Anyway this would save the entire screen! Might as well press PRINT SCREEN
But it does work

If I use an array to store animation I can play it in real time without any additional files, and I can go back and edit the animation easily

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Libervurto
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 21:32
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@Latch
Thinking ahead,
I'm going to make an animation array for storing the joint rotated, the angle of rotation (X,Y,Z), and the duration of the "animation step". Do these sound right to you, and how do I change the duration of the animation. I don't really understand how CURVEVALUE works or whether I should use it.

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 6th Aug 2007 21:34 Edited at: 6th Aug 2007 21:36
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Quote: "If I use an array to store animation I can play it in real time without any additional files, and I can go back and edit the animation easily"


didn't think about doing it that way.....
Quote: "lol, is this supposed to make it look like the computer is working hard "

actually it is!
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Sinani201
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Posted: 7th Aug 2007 06:39
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Quote: "lol, is this supposed to make it look like the computer is working hard"


I love doing that when I make games. I say that's it's loading even though it's not, so I use the wait command

Did someone say 3D scanning on my desk, or was that just an AdBot?
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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 7th Aug 2007 20:03
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Quote: "
I love doing that when I make games. I say that's it's loading even though it's not, so I use the wait command "

What he said!
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Latch
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Posted: 7th Aug 2007 20:13
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Quote: "@Latch
Thinking ahead,
I'm going to make an animation array for storing the joint rotated, the angle of rotation (X,Y,Z), and the duration of the "animation step". Do these sound right to you, and how do I change the duration of the animation. I don't really understand how CURVEVALUE works or whether I should use it."


Tackle the interpolation between frames later. Duration and all that should not be on your list of priorities. First thing, figure out how to store the joint information and relate it to a single frame. If you have 20 limbs, somehow the frame has to know what the positions of all 20 limbs are. Dark Dragons idea starts to sound pretty good in terms of management - but it depends on the goal. If it's just a 2d animation of the limbs then a series of images (stored in memory that can be saved to disk if you want to) captured after all the limb adjustments and stored in an array like
frame(num)=imagenumber should do.

Then it would be pretty easy to paste the images after running the frame array through a loop. However, this method means a lot of work in positioning limbs each frame, then capturing the image, plus it doesn't allow for any real editing. But no matter what, you will have to position the limbs and capture a frame anyway.

Now another way would mean creating a sort of limb animation engine. I would recommend storing the screen x and y for the end points of each limb in your joint array, along with an x,x1,y,y1 and z,z1 values as well as xang, yang, and zang. The method would be to use the 3d coordinates to convert the limb position to 2d screen coordinates.

I would have a series of functions:
add_limb()
remove_limb()
edit_limb()

xyz_rotation()
screen_x()
screen_y()

add_frame()
remove_frame()
edit_frame()

When you reposition a limb, inside the joint array, you would update
the x y and z angles. A rotation calculation is performed using the length of the limb and the starting x,y and z position. The rotation will give you the x1,y1, and z1 position which will then be stored. From these two sets of cartesian coordinates, you calculate screenx,screeny and screenx1,screeny1 to get the end points of the limb.

After all the limbs are positioned how you want them, you then enter frame mode in which all of the limb information is stored for the frame. You can do it in a couple of different ways. Since you have the screen coordinate endpoints recorded in the joint array, you can just have the frame array setup something like this:

dim frame(max cells,numlimbs,3)

frame(1,1,0)=joint(sx1)
frame(1,1,1)=joint(sy1)
frame(1,1,2)=joint(sx2)
frame(1,1,3)=joint(sx3)
etc.

This method stores the screen position of all the limbs at any given frame. Pretty low overhead and no additional calculations needed. It also allows you a bit of editing on the limb position within the frame itself. Again, drawing the limbs in real time will be slow, so running each frame offscreen and capturing it as an image then running the images would be faster.

You could expand the frame array to store most of the same indexes that are stored in the joint array. Essentially, you'd be copying the state of the joint array for each frame for each limb. This would allow you full editing to the same extent that you could do on the joint array itself. This method takes more overhead and requires rotation and screen conversion calculations to allow the frames to be editable.

After all the calculations to get to the final screen coordinates, for the animation I would use Dark Dragons suggestion and capture images. Trying to do the 3d and 2d calculations on multiple limbs in BASIC and drawing each limb in real time, would be unecessarily slow. The first thing to try is just see if you can set up a frame array and capture 2 or more frames of all of your limb positions.

Once you have an idea of how you can store a frame that represents all of the limb positions, then start thinking about interpolation. Interpolation is used to take some of the work out of drawing every single frame and to help with even transitions between key frames. If the joint movement is all rotation, a simple method of interpolation would be to have a start angle and a destination angle and divide the difference by the number of frames in between the two angles adding that difference to the first angle each iteration.

ex limb is at 10 degrees at frame 1 and by frame 11 we want it at 90 degrees

11-1 = 10 frames
90-10 = 80 degrees of difference
80/10 = 8 degree change per frame
frame 2=18 degrees
frame 10=82 degrees

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Libervurto
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Posted: 7th Aug 2007 21:55
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@Latch
Another way is I could and another dimension at the beginning of the joint array of however many frames I want and then the angles of each specific joint would apply to that frame.
Thanks for the tips

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Latch
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Posted: 8th Aug 2007 03:19
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I should have seen that when I wrote
Quote: "You could expand the frame array to store most of the same indexes that are stored in the joint array"


Makes more sense just to add the extra dimension - a little less round about.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 21:44 Edited at: 13th Aug 2007 21:48
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I've been looking at Spore videos (seach for Spore, it looks awesome ) and this has spurred me on and given me new ideas for how to use my skeleton.
I want to know how moving a limb would make the skeleton move along, so you could actually make a real walking skeleton.
I'm going to add a "joint-type" parameter (head, feet, hands, 60deg joint, 180deg joint, etc) so you can make realistic "animals"

My vision for this project is a skeleton being dropped out of the sky, falling in a heap and then picking itself back up and walking along!
That'd be so cool
I would love to make a program where you could make a random animal and it would "learn" how to walk on its own depending on where its feet were. Is this possible?

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 13th Aug 2007 21:48 Edited at: 13th Aug 2007 21:52
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That'd be cool!..

i'm in full support of this!
is it possible??
yes it is!
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Sinani201
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 07:19 Edited at: 14th Aug 2007 07:20
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I know...
You could make a battling game!!! Make your "thingiemajike" (thing-ee-muh-jike) and train it. Then battle you friends over the InterNet or battle computer AI's.

Did someone say 3D scanning on my desk, or was that just an AdBot?
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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:23 Edited at: 14th Aug 2007 20:41
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It's a shame you can't rotate sprites in DBC or I'd be able to make a media version.

My thinking is that if my animal has feet and hands, it can work out that its feet must be on the floor to walk, I'm gonna try and make one that stands up on its own. I have a feeling that the walking part will be very difficult.

Quote: "it code is err ( in DarkBasicPro )"

do you mean that using "~" in the function heading returns an error in DBP?

@Latch
What do you think of this idea?
Finding the logic difficult to work out, I was thinking the animal would have a default position, then "somehow" it would use its hands and feet to stand up into the default position.

My original thought was to have the program work this out for itself but having the player create the movement would be cool too.

The problem I am pre-empting is how I would move root joint based on the other limb movements, it would require his hands and feet to "push" or "pull" his body along.

This is starting to remind me of ROBOFORGE

Why is everything I do so complicated

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:41
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@sinani201
nice idea, might try it...
@obese87
i thought you could make an image rotate with a hidden command....
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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:42
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Quote: "i thought you could make an image rotate with a hidden command...."

You can but not all graphics cards support it (why it is hidden), and that includes mine

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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:44
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ohh....
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Dark Dragon
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:45
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Quote: "Why is everything I do so complicated "

dont ask me!
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pcRaider
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 20:57
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Quote: "
do you mean that using "~" in the function heading returns an error in DBP?
"

Yes

Quote: "
My thinking is that if my animal has feet and hands, it can work out that its feet must be on the floor to walk, I'm gonna try and make one that stands up on its own. I have a feeling that the walking part will be very difficult.
"

You can realize it.
You know a toy of an animal, and, as for it, animals walk.
A robot controlled a computer comes out in the same way.
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Pixelator
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Posted: 14th Aug 2007 21:47
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@ OBese87
Quote: "'ve been looking at Spore videos (seach for Spore, it looks awesome ) and this has spurred me on and given me new ideas for how to use my skeleton.
I want to know how moving a limb would make the skeleton move along, so you could actually make a real walking skeleton.
I'm going to add a "joint-type" parameter (head, feet, hands, 60deg joint, 180deg joint, etc) so you can make realistic "animals"

My vision for this project is a skeleton being dropped out of the sky, falling in a heap and then picking itself back up and walking along!
That'd be so cool
I would love to make a program where you could make a random animal and it would "learn" how to walk on its own depending on where its feet were. Is this possible?"


yes, this is how they are doing it in spore, and that hasn't crashed yet!!! I hope spore isn't too expensive...

The problem with the gaming community is people think that the resolution of a game defines how good it is. I am not afraid to make a game where the main character is 50x50.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 14:17 Edited at: 15th Aug 2007 14:18
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Quote: "yes, this is how they are doing it in spore, and that hasn't crashed yet!!! I hope spore isn't too expensive"

Errm... yes but I'm not exactly Will Wright
£25.99 from Amazon.co.uk out March 2008.

I'm starting off with the most basic thing I can think of.
A two limbed micro-organism. My theory is that by rotating one of the limbs this will create a rotational force that will rotate the whole animal. Then by rotating the other limb you balance out the rotation, and since the force has nowhere else to go it is transferred into forward motion.
Does this sound right?

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Pixelator
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Posted: 15th Aug 2007 18:34 Edited at: 15th Aug 2007 21:15
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25.99 British pounds = 52.445221 U.S. dollars for anyone who is curious how many dollars that is.


[edit]

@ obese87
I actually dont think that would work because the forces are against each other the force would bend the body of the creature.

The problem with the gaming community is people think that the resolution of a game defines how good it is. I am not afraid to make a game where the main character is 50x50.
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Sinani201
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 22:53
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Quote: "25.99 British pounds = 52.445221 U.S. dollars for anyone who is curious how many dollars that is."


I know it's 52 dollars, but how many cents?

Did someone say 3D scanning on my desk, or was that just an AdBot?
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 17th Aug 2007 23:03
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It doesn't matter. Rates change all the time so chances are it'll be more expensive when you come to buy it.

(N-1)/n*100<n2/n-n/2+n/4*2+100
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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 00:45
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Quote: "I actually dont think that would work because the forces are against each other the force would bend the body of the creature."

I don't think you quite understood what I meant.


1. The stationary position of the creature.
2. The creature moves both limbs inwards.
3. The creature is propelled forwards.

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Pixelator
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 03:53
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@ Obese87

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHh, ok.
Yea, it that case it would work!!! I thought it was shaped like this :
___
/ \

(Y=M*X+B)=(X=(Y-B)/M)=(B=Y-M*X)=(M=Y-B/X)
and if you can figure out what it means i will give you a cookie.
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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 11:59
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Pixelator:
Your sig, firstly, is A COPY OF MINE (kinda)! DIIIE! Secondly, Y,M,X and B all equal 0.

(N-1)/n*100<n2/n-n/2+n/4*2+100
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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 16:09
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@INH
Your sig is pointless!
it might as well be "n+1>n"
but I like the Serjo counter

@Pixelator
Your equation just doesn't make sense.
You are stating the value of each variable in each set of brackets, so it is effectively
Quote: "Y=X=B=M"
but that is impossible right from the first statement
Quote: "(Y=M*X+B) but all variables are equal so it may as well be (Y=Y*Y+Y) which is impossible!"

INH is sort of right
Quote: "Y,M,X and B all equal 0."

This is the only logical answer but they can't be 0 because then there would be divisions by 0.
My sig is better

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 20:00
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Quote: "it might as well be "n+1>n" "

Actually, n-1<n.
Quote: "is the only logical answer but they can't be 0 because then there would be divisions by 0."

O_o Didn't notice that!

(N-1)/n*100<n2/n-n/2+n/4*2+100
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Pixelator
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Posted: 18th Aug 2007 20:33
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I used the = signs between the equations as spacers, and that is why i had the parentheses. All the equations are just getting the value of each variable in the equation y=m*x+b by using the other variables.
Quote: "Your sig, firstly, is A COPY OF MINE (kinda)! DIIIE!"


To bad soo sad, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Besides, you dont even know the slope song!!!

(Y=M*X+B)=(X=(Y-B)/M)=(B=Y-M*X)=(M=Y-B/X)
and if you can figure out what it means i will give you a cookie.
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Sinani201
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Posted: 19th Aug 2007 02:39
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Can you stop going off-topic?

Did someone say 3D scanning on my desk, or was that just an AdBot?
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Libervurto
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Posted: 19th Aug 2007 02:50
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Quote: "Can you stop going off-topic?"

I agree, only 2D limb related stuff here please

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Pixelator
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Posted: 19th Aug 2007 19:44
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kk. is there a way to rotate an image by 90 degrees? I tried the hidden command rotate image but it makes blub(my little 2d guy) dissapear.

(Y=M*X+B)=(X=(Y-B)/M)=(B=Y-M*X)=(M=Y-B/X)
and if you can figure out what it means i will give you a cookie.
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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Aug 2007 02:50
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same thing happened to me
Latch was talking about FreeImage which has a load of image manipulation functions (i think it's a dll or something )
The only way I can think of doing it in code is to store the image in an array or memblock and alter the pixel positions from there.

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Pixelator
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Posted: 20th Aug 2007 19:12 Edited at: 21st Aug 2007 18:33
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Ty

[edit]
I don't have the enhanced version

(Y=M*X+B)=(X=(Y-B)/M)=(B=Y-M*X)=(M=Y-B/X)
and if you can figure out what it means i will give you a cookie.
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pcRaider
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 16:29 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2007 16:32
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Was the program completed?

Do you know Flag semaphore? (Characters)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_%28communication%29#Characters
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Pixelator
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 18:47
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Quote: "Was the program completed?"

no, abandoned, but oh well

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Libervurto
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Location: On Toast
Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 22:21
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I don't know enough yet to take this much further so I've left it here.
If anyone wants to use the code that's cool with me (credits please )

In programming, nothing exists
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Dark Dragon
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Joined: 22nd Jun 2007
Location: In the ring, Kickin\' *donkeybutt*.
Posted: 8th Sep 2007 01:05
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Hey obese87, You said you use arrays to store animation. how do you actually do this?
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Sinani201
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Location: Aperture Science Enrichment Center
Posted: 8th Sep 2007 03:41 Edited at: 8th Sep 2007 03:41
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you store the angle of all the bones for instance, if he made an array like this:



that bone would have ten frames. Every time the bone would be rotated, it stores the angle in the frame number in the array.

how do you make a sig?
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