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Geek Culture / Need help with upgrading a computer :0

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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 00:43
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Hi, I am trying to upgrade my computer so that it runs FPSCX10 at an above standard rate, the problem is that i am semi computer illitirate >___>

Well anywho, I am looking to buy a new graphics card, A motherboard, A dual/quad core processor and maybe A new power supply (If i can find out what power the stuff needs :S )

So first :/ the graphics card, a geforce 8800, 320mb superclocked.
http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/125117 What the hell does superclocked mean and could you translate the other technical stuff also :/ anyways, i was wondering if i should go for the 320mb or the 640mb (I plan on buying a 9 series when they come out, so the card only has to be effective for about a year or so)

The next thing, the motherboard. I know that for an intel proccessor the motherboard has to be compatible, which wouldent have been a problem but i am running an ATI based system at the moment :\. On the site www.Ebuyer.com i saw that some of the motherboards had a maximum ram limit, which was a shame because i thourght that even with 2 slots it could take a maximum of 4 gig of ram (2x2gig sticks) So my second problem is finding a cheap motherboard that will preform well and that can hold 4 gigs of ram and support a dual/quad core processor.

My final-ish problem, a dual/quad core. Initially i was going to go for a dual, it came in at around £50, but then i saw a better dual and a quad core processor that were both around the £100 mark ($200 ish) now i wouldent be too bothered but i dont plan on upgrading my processor for A long long long while so i thourght it would be wiser to go for a quad. My main problem is that i dont get all this GHZ stuff when it comes to processors, is a high number good? is a low number good? is a 2x1.8ghz good :S i seriously dont know, and then theres the 2x2 2mb things, WHY OH WHY DOES A PROCESSOR NEED A STUPID 4MB THING, WHAT THE HELL DOES IT DO (crycrycry) i would be greatfull if someone could link me to a good core and explain what all that stuff means.

And finally-finally what kind of power supply would i need to run all of the above (+ around 2/4 gigs of ram and 4 fans). And the final-final-final thing is, where could i get a cheap copy of vista from, and whats the difference between basic, home and premium. :S

Thanks in advance if you can help me out, i apriciate you reading this massive wall of text just to give me some advice ^___^

~SquelchyTom
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gamebird
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 01:18
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1.The geforce 9 series is aimed to be released in november. So it would actually be a lot better to wait unless you want to waste $300+. The 8800 GTS 320MB should be plenty unless you have an extremly high resolution monitor (think very expensiveish). On the other hand some people say that eventually games will need 640MB on lower resolutions too. But in my opinion it would be much better to wait for the geforce 9 series.

2. Unless you plan to use a 64-bit operating system, use 2GB. The most windows 32-bit (the regular one that runs most games and programs) can recognize is about 2.5 to 3.5 GB, depending on the motherboard and other things.

I can't finish answering because I have to go, but it looks like it would be a lot easier if you just got a brand new computer, or built a new one.
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GatorHex
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 01:21 Edited at: 30th Aug 2007 01:23
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If you don't know what you're buying how are you gona put it all together?

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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spooky
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 02:12
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For all the info about that graphics card did you think to visit their website? No I though not.

It tells you that you need at least a 400W power supply.

The following link explains the 'superclocked' but looks like it's just marketing speak rather than the card being overcloked.

http://www.evga.com/articles/283.asp

As already mentioned the 640mb version is only useful if you have a huge monitor. Anything else and the 320mb is more than adequate. Many reviews say the same thing.

I too am just about to fork out for an 8800 GTS 320mb as it looks the best deal and should last a fair while. The 9 series cards could be ages away and will cost a small fortune when they finally appear.

The dual/quad choice is a bit more difficult. Unless you have software that utilises lots of cores then why bother with quad core. They also produce more heat. The E6750 is touted as the best all round cpu and is also dirt cheap. The slightly faster E6850 is quite a bit more expensive and produces more heat and you probably won't notice the difference.

I think you will find most motherboards that support dual/quad processors should have at least 2 ram slots capable of supporting 4GB in total, although as said depending on windows, the motherboard and the bios, windows may not see it all. Some recent tests do show though that 4GB over 2GB gives a slightly higher fps in games, but it's all down to how much you are prepared to spend.

Sounds to me though that you could end up buying lots of incomaptible hardware and you would be best buying a prebuilt system.

Boo!
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 14:01
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Quote: "If you don't know what you're buying how are you gona put it all together?"
I have a friend who built my last system.

Quote: "For all the info about that graphics card did you think to visit their website? No I though not.
"
I did and i have a 400w psu allready, but I wanted to know if the card + the core + the motherboard would need a higher power supply when they are all in the same machine :/

Thanks , what is a good GHZ thing for a dual core? is 2x1.8 good :/
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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 14:35
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get a 600-700W
400W wont do much these days


http://www.myspace.com/pictureperfecttheband
http://www.unleashedgames.biz.tm/index.htm
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hessiess
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 18:04
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im building a new computer too

im going with the q660 processor, mainly becose i do alot of softwere rendering, most games are single or dubble thredid, so the quad wont be much of an improvement for gaming at the moment.

learn blender, you will never regret it.

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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 19:20
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thanks hessiess :/ but will future programs take advantage of quad cores? :0

Quote: "get a 600-700W
400W wont do much these days
"
:/ Does the power supply effect preformance?
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hessiess
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 22:13 Edited at: 30th Aug 2007 22:13
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Quote: ":/ Does the power supply effect preformance?"


no, if you haven't got enough wattage to drive the components than thay will cut out wen doing anything demanding. or refuse to work alltogether

the only apps that currently take advantage of that many cores are ray trace/ scan line renderer's and some video encoders.

i dont know if future apps will take advantage of there processors, but i assume thay will

learn blender, you will never regret it.

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gamebird
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Posted: 30th Aug 2007 22:44 Edited at: 31st Aug 2007 18:43
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If you have 2 cores, 2.5ghz (2.5 billion operations per second per core) or higher is what you really need for running games, programs, or gamemaking applications at good performance. A quad core is good too, and with the proper computer you can overclock the Q6600 to 3ghz from 2.4ghz. This means the Q6600 can last for a long time (future programs will use all four cores) and will go plenty fast. If you are going to be developing games and can get a quality system for overclocking then get a quad core.

A dual core at 1.7ghz will run many applications slowly.

Based on what you have said I think you will get a much more stable and capable computer if you buy a new one. Stay away from alienware, they were bought buy dell. I have found an excellent computer manufacturer called digital storm, at www.digitalstormonline.com. They have low prices, amazing support, and build high quality desktops and now they also build gaming laptops.
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 14:49
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oh i see :/ I will possibly use the custom build feature on that sight instead, however there is another thing confusing me.

This processor is a 2.66 ghz, http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/130484 i think it is reasonable, however if there was a choice between the two, should i go for this one (which is a 3.0ghz i think:S:S)
http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/130483

is that actually a 3.0ghz as it is cheaper than a quad 1.8ghz :S

thanks
~SquelchyTom
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 14:58
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4x 1.8ghz=7.2ghz.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Veron
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 15:05
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I've got a QX6700 CPU on the Intel 680i chipset, and it works like a charm. No matter what you throw at it, it'll munch it up in record time. My GFX card isn't even half-decent though, so i'm looking into the GeForce 9 Series of cards... when they come out.

Oh, and, if you're interested in running the GeForce 8800, it's a reccomended minimum of 600W I think, not sure though.

Good luck!


[center]
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gamebird
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 18:41
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@nex - That is not actually true. Not all applications are quad threaded, or even dual threaded. In fact, many programs will only be single threaded. The reasons you get a higher clocked quad core are:
1. You will run single threaded applications faster on a single core.
2. You will run dual threaded applications faster on 2 cores.
3. You will run quad threaded applications faster on all cores.
4. You will future proof your pc by being able to run programs that support quad threading.

A 3ghz dual core will prabobly last for a while only because its 3ghz. The reason quad cores are more expensive is because they are actually 2 dual cores put together. This is a cheaper way to make quad cores and does not effect performance in any way.

@veron - if you overclock your QX6700 cpu you can get it equal to the QX6800 (the QX6800 is a pre overclocked version of the QX6700). But be forewarned if you don't have a prebuilt system with a warranty that covers overclocking you will void intels warranty. That is how they make money.
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GatorHex
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 18:45 Edited at: 31st Aug 2007 19:08
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Quote: "4x 1.8ghz=7.2ghz."


a 2 x 2.66 will outperform it easily for running single threaded tasks like most games and DBP!

Probably beat it multithreaded too because you only get 70% efficiency on each extra core due to thread handling overhead!

The new 2.66 1333Mhz FSB version is also way cheaper

If you are way crazy, you can buy a Dell PowerEdge Tower server with 8 cores (2xQuad Xeons 2.66) in it for about £2000, stick 2x8800GTX in it and you would have a nice beasty to show off to your mates! It's on special offer so no doubt the 3Ghz version is about to be released

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 23:32
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ah i see :/ so an application that only takes advantage of one core (say the core was 2 times 1.5ghz) then it would run slow, but if it was an application that took advantage of a dual then it would run at 3.0ghz which is fast. But quad cores are semi obsolete as only 10% of applications use all 4 cores, and on there own the cores are often low, maybe around 1.2-5ghz (for example) so if the program only used one core it would be worse than a single core in comparison.


Am i right :/
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gamebird
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Posted: 31st Aug 2007 23:58
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Quad cores are the future (currently). They used to be bad because of low clock speeds compared to dual cores, but they are now just as fast, or if not, faster than dual cores. They are the next step up from dual cores and future applications will take advantage of all four cores. They are also excellent at multitasking. And they are the sort of processor that people would use to create applications, games, graphics, etc.

Don't get a quad core if you are upgrading only, but if you get a new pc then definetly get a quad core. That is one of the best ways to future proof your pc. There is no point in getting a quad or even a dual core that runs below 2.4ghz however unless you don't want a good pc that will last for a while.

I recommend you stay away from dell, their pcs are sometimes $4-500 more expensive than a better pc made by someone else. But if its a special offer and you have good support from dell in your area then go ahead. But I would still recommend Digital Storm. They have amazing support and will do stuff for you with the pc. Ex. they will dual or triple boot the pc, all you have to do is ask. They will even edit the bios to make a nice menu for you to select the os from. And they have a community forum you can post on to help you create your custom pc.

@Gator - Wouldn't two quads get extremely hot? Even with water cooling?
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GatorHex
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Posted: 1st Sep 2007 00:03 Edited at: 1st Sep 2007 02:34
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Something like an Apache webserver which spawns a thread for each user would benefit from lots of cores as it's like having a server farm in a single PC.

Even though DBP is single threaded I was toying with the idea of running zones in seperate DBP exes. Give each zone a different port number it should work, a player should be able to leave a portal in one exe, get the port number of another, and connect to the other exe and continue playing there.

Quote: "@Gator - Wouldn't two quads get extremely hot? Even with water cooling?"


They are based on the old Pentium-M used in laptops. They use less power and so give off less heat

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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gamebird
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Posted: 1st Sep 2007 00:12 Edited at: 1st Sep 2007 00:13
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Quote: "Even though DBP is single threaded I was toying with the idea of running zones in seperate DBP exes. Give each zone a different port number it should work, a player should be able to leave a portal in one exe, get the port number of another, and connect to the other exe and continue playing there."


Interesting idea- would that be possible with native dbpro? I'm guessing it wouldn't be.
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spooky
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Posted: 1st Sep 2007 02:27
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There is also an interesting bit of code in link below that lets you decide which core to run your DBPro program in.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=111731&b=6

Boo!
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 1st Sep 2007 19:30
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well gamebird :/ i put your advice to one side as i was intent on upgrading, but then realised where you were coming from, my only worry was that i had a pc allready, but i totally ruled out the option of selling it, which i may well do and then combine it with the money i was going to "waste" on upgrading and get one of those custom pc's that you suggested. However the company is in the USA and if it went wrong thats a long way to ship back to check over if you catch my drift :/ well either way i am crossed between buying a custom, or upgrading
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Foxy
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Posted: 1st Sep 2007 20:09
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Sorry if I say anything that has been said, it's 2:30am and I'm nearly asleep. >.>

I recently bought a new PC, pre-built from eBay - too much trouble building one yourself, considering the extra postage costs of sourcing your parts from different places.

Anyhow, the system I bought consists of the following:

Processor:
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 - clocked at 2.4ghz. Quad means four, so a quad-core chip is essentially a chip with four normal chips squashed into it so instead of being able to handle 2.4 billion processes a second, it can essentially handle 9.6 billion (in layman's terms).

I've been looking at the system resource monitor in Windows, and noticed that having the four cores, the system spreads out the system tasks between the cores, and almost assigns a core to each high-power program that you start yourself (just an observation but meh).

Motherboard:
GigaByte GA-P35-S3. This motherboard handles dual and quad-core processors, has 4 RAM slots, 1x PCI-e 16x slot, 3x PCI-e 1x slots, 3 PCI slots, supports SATA-2 hard disks, and IDE devices.

This is the second GigaByte motherboard I've had and I find them sturdy and pretty darn reliable. The four RAM slots will let you go up to 8GB, and of course, the PCI/-e slots are card expansion slots for graphics cards/modems etc. SATA/-2 and IDE are data transfer methods used by hard drives and optical drives like a DVD burner.

RAM:
4GB of 800mhz DDR2. The 800Mhz merely denotes how fast the ram will process the data sent through it. Think of the actual memory (4GB) as the size of a bottle, and the Mhz as the size of the neck of the bottle, if that makes sence.

Graphics card:
GigaByte nVidia GeForce 8500GT with 512Mb of memory. Supports DirectX 10, and has both a VGA output, and a DVI-dual output.

This card seems to handle whatever I can throw at it, without flinching. The 8800 series are a good couple steps higher still, so if you go for one of them, bear in mind you'll need to have a LCD monitor to go with it, but the power they will have will set you up for a while yet.

Misc stuff:
430W power supply. Runs all of the above fine.
500GB SATA-2 7200rpm hard disk.
Asus 20x DVD-burner.
ThermalTake Soprano gaming case.


This system set me back $1390 AUD, so it'll probably be in the order of 500-600 quid.
The power this thing has is pretty darn amazing, so if you were looking at something like that, you probably wont have to upgrade for a while.

I *was* Durdge39.
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Squelchy Tom
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2007 00:20
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thanks ^___^ that really helped :0
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gamebird
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2007 05:37
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@Squelchy Tom - You may be right about company location, I forgot They are just the best company I could find, but then again I live in the U.S. Here are some companies to stay away from however:
Cyberpower
Dell (unless you get good support or find a [rare] good deal)
Alienware (prices are slightly less bloated than dell's, was bought out by Dell)

@Foxy - 1. How did you test the 8500GT? The 8500GT is the cheapest and worst graphics card you can buy in the latest series. I would advise buying a geforce 7 series gpu instead of the 8500gt. One 8800GTS 320MB is better than 2 8600's. And the 8500GT is worse than that!

2. What you said about the ram isn't necessarily true. DDR2 ram is dual pumped, so whatever speed it says it is, divide by 2 to get real ram speed.

3. I hope for your wallets sake that you have 64-bit windows, because otherwise you system will only recognize about 3GB of it.

Quote: "The power this thing has is pretty darn amazing, so if you were looking at something like that, you probably wont have to upgrade for a while."

I hope I don't burst your bubble, but the geforce 8 series can not actually run directx 10 at acceptable framerates. The new soon to come out geforce 9 series will be 2 times better.

But I do like your motherboard. It should last for a long time and allow future upgrades.
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