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The darkbasic language reality check.

A basic language on the most abused virri riddled operating system.
A language with mistakes all over the place and new ones with each upgrade.
Professional software works out of the box, it doesn't take multiple years ( and still is not ready ) to wait for it to work as intended on the box, its why other products get the term professional packages without having to spew the word professional like its a Feature.

A language with professional in its name that has no commercial titles, after ten years of development.
No standard library of code (std lib), after ten years of development, paid customers make their own ram shackled sites and databases for glory and fame amongst other fools sucked into the whole, get rich mmorpg fame game.
A forum with areas that are abandoned, like the code base and the code snippet area is managed by a few good apples like TDK who try to make the best of what's presented.

No team requests are allowed for smaller kids, which creates a divided membership so TGC can suck the blood money from little boys and girls of the dreams of becoming an mmorpg rich god.
Let the kids make mistakes, they will learn quick enough who to evaluate project time on.
Members who suffer from god knows what, but they are always right.
Idiots and trolls, plus demented mental illness cases like you know who, who claim to work for blizzard, and other companies like the creators of lara croft, yet cant write a simple script for a podcast, let alone complete a single project in ten years.
The same cases who then ask me for work yet fail to supply an examples.
The ability of the community to focus / rejoice and lament in other idiots to fame other fools who dont like books or say stupid things.


No real support to protect your media. Media is copied to the hard drive anyway.
No default installer, no real copy protection.
Hopeless support for error messages.
No real updates of the debugger in years.

A language with a million plugins from others who have worked out to suck money from little kid dreams of building games, yet they have no real game engines themselves as they soon realize its not feasible.
A ram-shackled system where things like classes or types are unique to the language in regards to the features implemented by the core developers, lack of a core programming enviroment expressed by heaps of other languages.

A language in 2007 with a plugin to do multiplayer that hardly works and not from the original developers, yet every second joined developer wants to do multiplayer.
Native support for Lan gaming and not internet based play, when clearly its been around for years in other languages.
Model formats that are not supported on the boxed cover, clearly a breach of consumer confidence and lies about what the product can do.

Core elements to game development like collision are best left for third party developers.
Essential programming features swept aside for hope of new cool features that never evolve.
The BSP format and plugins abandoned by the developers with no real support for how they work.

Moderators who think the rules are above them and flagrantly abuse the polices, Fools indoctrinated by their countries patriotism with broad brush strokes about other countries people and beliefs.
Little boys being baby sat by other little boys on a forum creating us vs them posts, this product vs that product, as if they have shares, designed the product or even have a vested interest in it.
The lead web developer leaves for another company but leaves the forum a shambles, has no real public communication skills and communicates to you as if his chocolate starfish smells like roses.

A forum that stalls when you press the back button in certain areas.
A forum with obvious money making advertisements in the middle.
A forum thats lost a great deal of information from its first inception, yet each time its restarted the older information is vaporware.
A forum and community thats joked about by other forums and game developers for its lack of professionalism and continuity.
A game development forum that lacks an audio section after ten years.
A game development forum that lacks a game music forum area and leaves half of the interactive multimedia elements to be ram shackled around the forum areas as if its an afterthought to game dev.
A game development language that lacks a 3d editor that works seamlessly out of the box.
A company that changes its policy on educational copies, when clearly I could have introduced many students that I now teach as a professor at a university, yet I lack the co -operation to even expand the core language in that enviroment.

The lead developer runs off to program a new fps engine halfway through building the core product for teenage dreamers but it gets 30 fps if your lucky in 2007 when other engines are maximizing the fps limits of direct x.
A segregation of users in two different areas of the same language, when the fps dreamers think they are elite in using an engine that gets 30 fps in 2007.
A bunch of forum mods who work in that area that are also segregated into thinking the product is completely segregated from the alternate community when its the same language.

Promise of a DX 10 and obvious signs that the core developers haven't spoken to the community in their own forums for years, despite the fact they take the cash from you for a product that leaves you in the proverbial dark.

The original editor abandoned for years after the core company took a chance on a developer who left the company after his profit or some other freakshow reason, just plain up and left.
The original editor sometimes destroys code, no warning of this "feature" in any new updates, yet you find out quickly that there are alternatives and they are third party after you spent a lot of time developing.
A failed business relationship with that developer from another country who made the editor that is still in use today and is not updated, yet still shipped and supplied with the core product.

A help system, thats got more innuendo then the holy bible, no real updates in years.

A programming language aimed at kids, with no intention of the help system or half the features aimed for kids.
Forum members who are more interested in what they had for lunch last week and what they thought their cat was thinking about.

External plugins that once reviewed and tested work until its updated again.

Shader support with more holes then swiss cheese, and constantly breaks with every professional update.

Competitions that promise a computer to young developers but then find out they really only got a box with a cpu and some ram etc. Nvidia and TGC, shame on you for that one.

Kids who cant afford the base product, but magically appear with a full version of a $3000 package like 3d studio max, and then ask how to do something very obvious in the larger 3d package.
Obviously a clear cut case of warez and warez community usage.

Clearly produced to make a profit and lacks key features other game developers have, which oxymoron's the term professional, and breaks with every update.

An operating system that decides to release the same core software product direct x 9, but instead of following standard protocol with version numbers,
they switch to monthly update release names, then abandons it all for another version they try to pimp you as a major upgrade that cant go back, yet is proven its a money grab.
A core language super seeded by the developers of the Operating system, going head to head with this language, clearly out performing and clearly with a much larger budget.

Hardware support of video cards in the first instance is doubtful if your paid for v.card will be supported in the future.
A new operating system that requires so much bloated junk you need to spend more and more, yet other systems with 400 mhz and higher still run on other systems.
A core graphics library that was supposed to eliminate the need for coding on different graphic cards, doubling back on itself in a matter of years.

Lack of support for the game development language to be used in a much tighter environment like the xbox.


Sure it feeds the developers, but the rest is a joke and you keep paying for it.

A great bedroom banging, hobbyist language that shows you a dream but lacks any real support in a professional capacity, great for prototyping and single player games, lan and multiplayer games are ramshackled.

Its obvious this place is for kids and deluded fanbois, enjoy it, im out of the forum.
The community here cant tolerate proper criticism, its full of ego driven ladder climbers.
A ladder leading nowhere.
Not my problem, thanks to a very select few who I did connect with and learnt some stuff.

Im sure some mod is going to lock this, its obvious I havent used a swear word, and proven what Im saying is legit, I gave it a ten year shot.
However the game dev spin doesnt wash with me anymore, especially when someone speaks the truth about the mess this place is in.

Go Ahead and lock it, you only prove the reasons above why to avoid this development language and community with its hypocrisy.

You don't have to agree or like what I have said, Its one persons opinion who is leaving for they dislike what they see and have experienced over many years.

all i can say is wow... i remember the days when you were actually helpful. are you feeling alright??? the first occurences of your angry posts and retarded complaints, i brushed them off because i thought you just had a bad day... but this absolutely tops it.

I think somebody needs a hug.

Indi-Bro whats going down with you lately..has someone punched you in the gut or something? e-mail me if I can help in anyway.

I cant say I agree with everything he's said, but a good chunk of it is true. Probably the reason I haven't touched DBP for the entire summer.

Yea..but I don't care about that anyway..I still says its a fun product, I..I'm more worried about Indi. He's still human after all and I want to help.

ya, but if one is THAT nit picky about something like that, how can you possibly live life without going crazy??? some things we just have to live with.

I see now that the only one here with a real ego is you.

I e-mailed you.

I too agree with most of the stuff that's been said, without the myriad of plugins developed and being developed by the community DBP would be almost unusable for any serious projects. Not sure what you meant by "with a plugin to do multiplayer that hardly works" because both Benjamin's mutliplayer plugins and Barnki's work nicely for me, I haven't tried CR's one however.

You are looking at all the negatives. There is a lot that dbpro offers that just can't be had anywhere else.

But when you hit on the negatives, you sure do it honestly. I can't argue with a single point you made.

Well.. except for the part about lolcats. If I wanna pretend my cat is thinking, I sure as hell will.

Anyways, you'll be missed around here.

Something has really flipped his world upside down.

If you're gonna go then you should just go, but no.
Instead you've made one of the trademark "I'm leaving " posts, that indicates nothing more than you've decided to throw your dummy out of the pram and feel you need to cry until someone picks it up for you.

Good ****ing riddens if you ask me!
Just a shame that no doubt you'll end up coming back.
Seriously think you need some professional help, and stop laying waste your problems on other people all the damn time.

Hope to hell that the other forum users realise not to do the whole "oh don't go" bit, and do all that ego stroking you so obviously crave .. but knowing this community they probably will anyway.

Raven-True I've seen back posts of people doing this and coming back but I don't think anything said here is casuing this rant..it has to be something on the outside.

all i have to say is

indi: youve really helped me and alot of others out in the past and i thank you for that, it'll be a shame to lose you

Well I guess some of the stuff is true. But he is going of the rail in other parts. If your just going to complain then leave.

I agree with a lot of what he said, but lets be constructive about this: If DBP no longer meets the needs of this community, where should we turn? Where will you go now, Indi? And is it a place we may want to follow you to?

One good thing for TGC - this tread has not been locked.

I read over it again and I must say I don't really care for what he said..db does not show you a dream and then not give you the tools to do it..its all doable.

And why do you care about what people are saying about tgc's community? We're a lot better than most forums i've been in, many many more nice people here a few are even funny :p. Come on indi think it over one more time, maybe pop in to say hi once and a while, just because you're not doing db anymore doesn't mean you have to leave us you know.

I have to agree with certain elements of the post you made there Indi. The TPC's, Help documents, the IDE situation and various other points.

Some other points I disagree with but that is down to my interpretation on the facts and down to personal opinion.

One thing I would say is the OS attacks aren't really justified as do you target the biggest OS to run your software off so you can get more people to use/buy the software or do you just go for a lesser mainstream (I know MacOSX is raising popularity but) OS that isn't going to generate as much revenue?


Cheers,
Rich

I'm just shocked. I don't understand whats happened . Indi was great as a mod and a member. His posts were very helpful. I just can't believe he's left and what he's said. After all the purchase of TGC products are optional and you could use other software from other companies.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and express themselves.

Indi's points are all supported by other facts and opinions that he deems valid and relevant so the thread seems fine to me.

Of course it could create a bit of tension but that's a seperate matter.

rich

almost seems like its not him huh, but everyone has a limit to stuff I just want to know what it is that drove him nuts.

But you don't know him. No one really knows each online so saying a comment like that, while true for what we 'see' of Indi, isn't really valid. You/I/We don't know what Indi's like.

Probably because he got fed up with the community, fed up with members, fed up with TGC..... Your guess is as good as mine!

very true..very true. Well I hope it never happens to me to tell you truth because I love this place.

Double post Accident

I really don't think that sounded like indi at all. In fact I think his account has been hacked. Or maybe I just can't believe that you of all people would say things like you just said!

totally agree with some of the points stated, i have only used the trial.

the model support is hopeless, only direct x works 'correctly'.

the language is very difficult for a total beginner to programing to learn, mostly becose of non existent documentation. i have little expiriance, and still find irrlicht and c++ far easier to understand

only supports 1 api dx9.0c.

lacks multi-threading.

the only resen i still reed this form is to help bigeners with 3d medaling, and there are rarely a few interesting threds

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There's dicks where ever you go. Like me. Get used to it. Besides, if DBP was really for making full-on games, it would cost £3000 and therefore only full dev teams could use it.

If you ask me, it's extremely easy to use (with the exception of error messages - these need work, Lee!) in comparison to any other language I've used, in terms of result/work. You need something like 2 pages of garbage to put a coloured triangle on screen in Bloodshed C++. To texture it, it's even more.

Geez Indi, any more fish in that barrel that you care to shoot?

You talk like your some martyr, have been fighting the good cause for years, yet I don't remember you addressing any of this to TGC in 10 years or whatever. You got yourself in a mood and this is your way of justifying YOUR failings mate.

This is the part where you bugger off and start using Blitzmax or some other god-awful platform and achieve nothing but self satisfaction, it's like watching a zombie turn in a Romero movie. People can't seem to believe this is you talking, I can believe it with no question - because this is not the first time that you've gone feral on us.

Wow, how can someone with such a cool avatar sink so low?

Strangely I agree with a lot of what you said Indi. Why? Well because I have come across some of those problems...collision code suddenly stops working on an update - so I now use an external plugin, using multiple shaders cause problems - I can't even have water running with a normal map shader running as well without an issue and my most recent problem is LUA related. I am tolerant of these problems, because I can work around them...more tolerant than I was of Hexagon 2's bugs, but then I'm fussy about what I use for 3D modelling and like that to work properly...and I can understand where you're coming from the DBP point of view because it's just like the Hexagon of programming. My current lua related problem stops me from progressing - so it'd mean a lot of working around it...so clueless of my problem (with no available forum advice) I am waiting until I can buy Unity or DarkScript to solve my issues - so in the meantime I've been playing with Torque.

Though DBP has a lot of positives, hence I continue to use it, for one this it's easy and quick to get results...but I have also discovered so is Irrlicht in C++ and Ogre as well - though harder than DBP they follow the same sort or principles.

However it's a shame you have a beef with DBP as I am quite happy with it despite its problems, but each to their own.



The community comments are the ones I disagree on...'Kids and Deluded fanboys' I consider unfair - fanboys are one of the most irritating types of people I cannot stand...And I'm comfortable with the people here. As for kids, yes they're here and they valuable to the community - though some a foolish, but they contribute as much as the adults - Xenocythe is one of the main 'youngsters' contributing and I'm sure you wouldn't say anything negative about him. I have found the community friendly and helpful and a number of members open minded during my years here - there have been disagreements and arguments, but that happens at a number of online communities and not just the fanboy and ones with kids in it - there was one on a 3D community that has been on for a while and recently solved and these were between grown men who are professional 3D artists. Discussions tend to be mature - though you do get people saying stupid things...with a community this size you're bound to find that and these people shouldn't reflect everybody else.

The community can take criticism...it just has and look out of all of your repliers and see who are offended and who aren't...And it's not because you made that comment - Cattle Rustler I've seen take constructive criticism over the whole incident you brought up - by insulting him and all that he didn't give you the same respect.

I've seen others accept criticism and admit they're wrong...though you have had some that aren't...but look upon society and see how many are open minded and those narrow minded, it's normal.

I know the community has its problems, I've tried my hand at getting people to 'behave' I even made a 'chill out dudes' thread a while back in hope I could rant about some of the 'negativity' going on during the time, it got locked and people flamed...However Soapyfish decided to make a similar thread done in a much more tactful and entertaining way. But since then I think the community has improved a lot - there were times I got annoyed with it, but it has picked up, I don't see as many flamers around (Though they do still annoy me, and I have told people off for doing it)

On the unprofessionalism, no it's not professional...the majority are hobbyists and I think that's good, plus people like to have a bit of fun - the whole point of a hobby - Dark Basic is more directed at hobbyist indies than professionals, even if you do have Dark Basic Professional. Personally I'd prefer it to stay 'unprofessional' it allows for a more relaxed attitude - people get help and produce the results they want either way...if we wanted professionalism we'd go to GameDev.net.

As for the mockery...you're very right, there are people that mock Dark Basic and its community - some of them are right in terms of immaturity and idiotism of the FPSC community that thanks to KeithC and his crew has improved (A FPSC customer on one of the 3D forums I surf made that comment) and most people I've seen mock DBC/DBP has actually been C++ elitists and often or not their argument is really outdated, kind of like using the features of MacOS 8/9 to criticise the latest release of MacOS X. As for those you've seen, I don't know, they might be different.

But again, flaws are unattractive and if you dislike them...suit yourself, it's you and we can't dictate what you want and how you feel.

As for you leaving...after your attitude towards Cattle Rustler I kind feel reluctant to say 'It's a shame' for one thing your post was hypocritical of all of the things you've told members to do and not to do. You have contributed to the community and have caused tension amongst people at the same time...As you've got a reason to leave and it's your choice, I'll just say goodbye and good luck in your future endeavours.



Indeed, but you don't need that much coding in C++ to get that, there are plenty of SDKs out there that cut out the work almost as much as DBP does, like Ogre, Irrlicht, Truevision 3D and Dark Game SDK. You also have games engines like Torque out there. But I still like Dark Basic for its ease over everything else at the moment.

It's definitely Indi himself. I recognise the way he uses "your" instead of "you're"...

Though what some things have been said are true/partly true on his behalf...but he does sound like he's in a bad mood, just like when he did his attack on CR that I felt very unjustified. Though this does appear to be another attack worded in a different more 'my opinion' way, I can understand where some of his points come from, though I do not wish to defend him - especially as I think his criticisms on the community are quite wrong - just because we've had idiots and bigots doesn't reflect the community as I've said in my long post, I would think after 10 years of surfing the forums he would know what the 'real' people of the community are like - I mean after his recent behaviour, people are still understanding of him (like my last post was all about) and are being nice. (despite the odd comment)

it's riddance actually.

I for one can agree with Indi in several respects, though I haven't tried to get help from TGC or use help files much (since dbc) so I can't particularly vouch for those points. I do agree that TGC's products are aimed at the young dreamers, FPSC is a pretty average program, but it is fun to use to learn a few things about game development. For several years I have used dark basic and TGC's products, and I find myself very critical of modern games, as I have an understanding of the process by which they are created. A lot of times i see those cheap $5 games that look like they are made with fpsc and I laugh at how people think they can sell these products compared to games like bioshock.

DBC/P is not a professional development tool, I have never seen it as such, and I doubt it will ever be. I do support TGC products as a taster for people to get into games dev.

As for the community, yeah I agree on lots of those points... seriously guys what's with the cats internet craze? it sickens me. And there are many people on here that act like jerks, but there are also some great people, which I have enjoyed discussing things with. I always thought highly of you Indi and still do (even though you probably won't read this post), I bid you good luck on your endeavors and hope all goes well for you.

damn this is a fast thread, i read it, went back to the list and there was a new post already from seppuku, then when i entered the thread again 2 seconds after exiting, there was yet antoher post

Me thinks indi has been abducted by aliens...

edit:
2 new posts before I even finished!

Someone posted a link in irc, i dont post alot around here, but i thought i'd comment. As much as i hate indi like most people who have been here for a long time, I have to agree with ... just about everything he's said.

Most people on IRC dont program db anymore, most of us have moved on but its not to do with that, its to do with the fact that db has some inherent flaws that really mess up the experience, when i opened the box, i loved it really, it was easy and code was nice and pretty (im a bit weird) but it sort of worked, there were issues here and there but hey, they would get fixed right ?
But that never happened, more and more features got added on, features that mostly we're needed, what was needed was for things to be fixed! some things ... I remember reading bsp support on the box, and saying hey cool ! and ... then i tried it, only to find that it was a selling point, nothing more, it was buggy and totally unusable.
TGC scrapped the support as they said no one used it, no one used it because its crap.

Im ranting a bit here, but i must say as a user since db classic version something or other, I've sort of lost faith at this point. But one thing thats kept me going is the great user community thats here, especially on devhat / irc, there are some very talented people, the only issue is the language ....

Actually, there have been quite a few games of <almost> proffessional quality lately... For example that star wars game, and there's NOX, and some others as well.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said (possibly excluding the OS related parts).

I used DBP as a ladder to start C++ - rather than gracefully pushing me toward it when I had mastered DBP, however, I was shoved toward it; DBP asploded years ago in my opinion.

I've got to agree with his criticisms of DBP.

Updates that ruin your work, like in one update a random crashing bug got fixed, but deleting objects took 10 times as long. WHY? TGC should spend more time fixing these things.

The editor deleting stuff? What on Earth were you doing to it? I've got a project working fine with 8 source files (7 of which are in a different folder) and nothing is wrong with it. It's probably got something to do with the fact that I am one of the few who doesn't use antivirus around these parts. I am also one of the few to never experience this phenomenon you call "data loss".

Unfortunately, i agree with most of it, but i've never seen it as a professional quality language, more of something i'd have fun with, if i was that serious about making commercial quality games i'd move to something 'better', but to be quite honest i can't be arsed to spend months learning c++ just because i have hopes that i'll have a commercial quality game out.

Besides the professional tag slapped on the front of the box, i've never really seen them target this product at anyone but bedroom programmers.

Indi has been around a loooooong time so I'm sad to see another focal member of the community leave, but he has clearly lost the plot or at least lost it as far as these forums are concerned. I've only popped back on the forums because I've been bored but since I've been back I have noticed this "Indi mania" people who have done as little as me on these forums going round blatently slamming indi and the mods doing nothing because they agree with it not because its correct behaviour. I don't really know whats gone on here, indi has clearly p*ssed alot of people off :p.
Back on to the point I agree with some stuff, but its a clearly biased opinion, its funny hearing indi talk about fanboys, when his opinion of Windows has a certain mac fanboy edge to it. I personally haven't touched DBP since I got it, not because I'm some elite coder (I'm worse than I was ) but because I just didn't like it. Its still fun to come back to the forums now and then and catch the latest gossip (which generally is about some person who everybody hates on the forums, who eventually gets banned or leaves).

That was a long..semi-serious post, now everyone go and have a beer .

[edit]
I just read some other posts and have a question...

Are you sure in your long stay on the dbp boards you've never made a post like that? I could swear on my dead cat you did, but still you make a point.

It might be labeled 'professional' but it's priced somewhere between a loaf of bread and a can of beans. It's cheaper than a medieval prostitute, and for that reason, I don't think you can expect too much.

This thread made Grandma sad.

Well Indi, if you need to leave this community, then we can't stop you, but just remember that altough some people here have seemed annoying to you, they have been fair. I've read alot of threads were there was obvious issues between you and others, and from my neutral perspective i'd say you have anger management problem. But who knows, i haven't been around as long as you. You might have started off on the wrong side of some locals and always had a little grudge, a bubble waiting to burst. Remember this is the internet, don't take things too serious that anyone would say. You got to know that some people just see other members as an avatar, not as a person, and as such could say "cold" things. Don't let it get to you so easily.

Good luck on the next chapter of your life.

Mods, don't not lock this because he said that it would prove him right - it won't.

He didn't jusify almost all of his points, many of them are completely wrong, it also contained many personal attacks.

He's a complete jackass who is frustrated with his own ineptitude. Maybe he will come back soon with a completed game better than, say, Echoes or Starwraith, made in one of the 'many better languages' out there.

Somehow, however, I doubt it.

Congratulations TGC Community, we finally drove him out

(maybe Rich can tell us how many times he has logged back in the read this thread since he claimed to be leaving)

Aye, I've made one along the same lines before and I'm still here.
Although to be fair, I made the post and didn't post for a few weeks to make a point about an argument I had with some of the other forums members about such posts.

When I did finally get sick of constant bashing on the forums by some members who most of whom are no longer around, and the rest post very rarely.. didn't make any such post. I left and requested that Rich, ban my account.. in an effort to make sure that even if I did get the urge to return I couldn't. He however simply deactivated it, and sent me quite an interesting email that I wish I still had actually.

About 5months later I returned with a new account, and despite a year or two of being fairly rare on the forums. I've come full circle and now just as active as ever.
Wish I could just leave this forum sometimes, but it really is more addictive than crack

You missed "bitter ex-mods that turned a molehill into a mountain". Harsh - definitely. fair - absolutely.



Locked, based on AUP points 3.1, 3.11, 3.12. The old "lock it and prove me right" approach doesn't deter me - sorry. My kids work on that theory, but they are all under ten years old.


A statement which just proves that your post is unfounded as far as the facts are concerned. When the first driving instruction title came out, it outsold Halo. There have been a whole plethora of other titles, both by TGC and others.