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I have no clue where this should go, as it has nothing to do with game theory, and is not a wip. Thus, I decided to put it where I would get the most feedback (I think). If a mod wants to move this, that's fine.

It's also a point to my website, where the game's I've made and am making are. I'm going to be completely redoing the site sometime around the holiday season.

Anyways, some of you might remember that I was making a game called Old School. Well, I've secretly been making an improved engine for it, along with a remake of Links Awakening, which is purely for my own use, and my friends who I have met in person.

old Old School Screens




So, I'd like to know if

A) People think this is worth remaking into a full game,
B) If so, what kinds of things people would want to see,
C) and whether I should have a story for it or not. Right now, I'm thinking of a virtually non existent story, that barely explains why Kreg (the main character) is the way he is.

I'd like to note I'm a lot better with computer art now, and that I'm thinking of something that is basically like this only an assault on the visual senses. I'm also thinking it will have a lot in common with FLCL (like a guitar instead of a hammer)


Here's a link to the old demo, from the version that got a mention in the newsletter. I recommend replacing the music file with fast paced rock music, preferably The Pillows music (from FLCL).

DEMO LINK

There are problems with the downloads right now, so don't be surprised if you don't get a percentage while it's downloading. If people are unable to run any of the programs, I can post them here as well.

I also recommend downloading the Dream demo, and if you like it, checking out the Dream wip thread.

Dream:

Well well, old school. Was surely a very interesting title and I'd love to see much, much more of it!

A story? Yeah. The princess got kidnapped by a green, evil dragon... oh wait.

Just make clear the world is in danger .

Well I've never heard of Old School, but I like your art style for it . A) Depends on if you think it's worth it. I don't know how much work it would require to redo the engine on it . B) I don't really know the game so I can't answer . C) Some kind of story, doesn't have to be particularly deep or anything.

Well Gil, he does have a

DEMO LINK

Looks a lot like the guy is an edited Paper Mario sprite, you might want to change it a bit more.

I find a good way of getting the style of a sprite less obviously is to put it in gimp and draw on a new layer on top of it.

The style is nice though, is there a layered effect to the background scrolling? (can't download it atm)

@tha_rami, heh, well Kreg isn't the typical hero. He's a wandering guitar player, who goes through vastly different worlds blowing up robots.

@Gil Galvanti, you might have missed the top of the post, but I've already started the new engine. I was more asking if people thought the game was fun enough that I should really put my time into it once Dream is finished. I really recommend trying the demo before anything. And this isn't the standard "every game should have a story". I'm a huge fan of a good story in anything, so I've got pretty good reasons for considering having it be pure game. It makes more sense when you play the old demo with the music replaced with some fast rock (Pillows if possible, and if so the song Advice is the one to go with).

@Chris K, Err, well no, it's just done in the same stile. I do all my own art. The new Kreg looks rather different (He looks like someone who's pretty cool), and is done in my style of art. I've got a lot of plans for the art. There is a layered effect in the background, which is due to the fact that the game is 3d, using 2d images. The camera has some 3d to it as well. It's pretty cool in motion, though it will be much moreso in the new version.

Dude it simply must be the Paper Mario sprite, the gloves, shoes, nose and ears are exactly the same.



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edit: Mouth wtf was I thinking...

Mouth? Everyone knows Mario has no mouth because that would overgo the pixel-limitations of the early days of Mario. Personally I just think it's heavily inspired on Paper Mario, and I don't really care about that since it clearly isn't Paper Mario, and it certainly has a great feel and style.

People can be influenced without blatantly ripping off something, even if it is similar.

Also, if you have an engine and are willing to work on the game, then do it. But i personally would concentrate on the story, if everything else is done then you want a good solid story to match a decent game engine.

YES keep making this! It's like the Paper Mario of dark basic! I would personally like to see this become the most solid platformer ever made in DB. Get the basics down right, like with jumping and the hammer and stuff, add in some cool moves, and maybe make a small storyline, kind of like a rescue someone type thing, and you'll have one of the coolest games of all time.

Btw, he does look a bit like Paper Mario.

Good luck!

@Chris K, hah, I KNOW he looks like Paper Mario. I HAD the Paper Mario sprite right next to him when I drew it. I WANTED the look of Paper Mario, so I redrew what I thought gave the feel of Paper Mario. I didn't even trace it, and if anyone tries to tell me I just edited the sprite I'm going to get offended. That was what I meant when I said I made it in the same style. I've never played Paper Mario, so it would have been rather hard to imitate the style without the sprite right in front of me. If it make you feel better, I can tell you again that I've spent a lot of time figuring out how I want the new Kreg to moves and look, and he is completely in my own style. If you haven't noticed, I'm an art person. Not in the gaming sense, I'm actually in college as an art major.
You're probably not trying to offend me at all, but I don't like being badgered about something like that. I do not and NEVER will plagiarize. Seriously, it's hard to find something that pisses me off more than being accused of plagiarism (which is what it is, once I tell you I didn't take someone else's work). Once you're able to download the demo you'll see that kreg is not just a manipulated image of Paper Mario.

Really, the reason Serge made me so angry was because he was plagiarizing. I can't express how angry it makes me.

(tries to calm down)


@Oolite, I understand why you recommend having a story, it something that every beginner should learn is important. I literally have more stories and story ideas that I've written down that most people here will write in their lives. Thus, I have good reason for considering not having a story. I'm not exactly a newbie.

I'll try and explain the situation here- I am of the opinion that the new Old School will benefit from having little to no story. I am here, asking people to try the old demo (preferably while replacing the music with some fast rock/pop), and come up with a good reason that I should or should not have a story. If someone agrees with me, I'm hoping they can explain why. That's the kind of feedback I'm asking for, the kind that's really going to effect what I do.


(tries to calm down a little more)

I'm sorry, but I just wok up after a night of partying, and I've got no block up to make polite conversation viable. I'm sure I'll regret posting so angrily later, but I really wanted to touch on the fact that I don't plagiarize, and give a better idea of what I was looking for when asking

I am glad that people posted, and I’m glad for all the feedback except of the accusation. Please don’t feel like I’m going to lash out at anyone for posting, just don’t accuse me of stealing other peoples work.

PLEASE download the old demo, especially if you want to argue whether or not I should have a story.

Unfortunately, copying something as exactly as you have is still plagiarism, even if you drew it from scratch yourself and didn't edit or trace it.

I'm not sure of the exact definition of it, I imagine it's kind of a grey area, but in my opinion your sprite is too obvious a copy of someone else's art. You couldn't have made it look that similiar without the other sprite to copy.

I mean seriously, look, they fit exactly on top of each other:



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edited for clarity.

I just played the demo and thought it was really cool, seems you've emulated almost all the features from mario, other than Yoshi . It's very rare for platformers to be made in DBP especially of this quality so I don't see why not. Also why not have the standard Mario story, only change it a bit; like Princess nectarine gets kidnapped by King Browser and you must make your way through fungus kingdom to rescue her.

Edit: Also if you looked up plagiarism in a dictionary "1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work." While yes it is a close imitation he is by no means claiming that he invented this Mario like character for that he would have to accuse Nintendo of copying him and most likely claiming he designed the character first.

It isn't becuase he used Mario as a reference. He has not called the main character mario nor has made the name mushroom kingdom. And he looks different, so its not Plagiarism.

Just played the demo it's really nice, the music is particularly good.

It was a little bit choppy on this PC, I'll try it on my PC later.

Haven't seen many 2D DB games (other than my own). Much easier to make it professional quality without the pesky z axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Giana_Sisters

^My brother has that game on his commodore. I never was allowed to play it though, i had to settle with watching him play it.

Oh boy, that takes me back.

@ Bizar Guy

I also think you should continue, the game sure has potensial.

@Chris:

There's a lot of difference between copying áll and basing a character on another character.



Come on, that's a clone to cash in on Super Mario. Not a sprite that resembles another because the other was used as inspiration. Kreg doesn't resemble Mario in other way if you ask me.

@Bizar Guy - Just so you know, I think your character is too close to Mario, too. I'm not saying you traced it or anything like that. Just for the record Nintendo could still go after you, regardless of your intentions.

...I know how much they match, and in case anyone doesn't know, this is the OLD demo, using OLD textures, and that the NEW Kreg looks NOTHING like Paper Mario. I mean this is seriously over a year old. People have pointed this out before, and unfortunately I'm good with hand eye coordination. I felt the best way to figure out the style would be to try drawing the same thing itself. I found a style I liked, and tried to emulate it. Just so people know, IT WORKED. I now know how to create a similar style, and like all styles I like, it has influenced my drawing somewhat. Though if you want to call it plagiarism, fine. It's not, but I'd rather drop it than try and explain how I'm not stealing an idea but learning from it. I'm sorry I'm good at drawing, even with the awful program I used to make the images for Old School. If Nintendo wants to send me a cease and desist for a year old engine demo, they can be my guest. The New Old School wouldn't apply, and I could send them proof.


I'll describe the original intent of Old School, from when I was making the version you're seeing in the demo. It was not a Mario clone, but a platfromer that was pure fun. It definitely feels similar to Mario in that it's more exploration based than speed, but you may notice that the health works very differently, and that you dont lose a power up until you die. The idea of the shooting chain ball and missile silo came from Mario, but those are just plain good ideas. I was working out effectively different enemy types, and Nintendo knew what they were doing. The story was going to be a huge parody of Mario though. The original story was going to be that Kreg was the son of the princess, who was taken captive at her brothers castle by a Dr. Eggman like character. I say that because I wanted all the baddies to be robots, and that's the first thing that came to mind. I was considering having that big baddy be a wizard instead.


In the new engine, there is literally a move for every possible arrow combination, though a few of them have yet to be implemented. All the physics are controlled, so you can expect consistency. The reason I'm thinking there shouldn't be a story is because then it loses any age relevance, and no longer needs to have any sense or purpose aside from fun- I can completely let my imagination run wild. I also want to have bosses on an FLCL like scale. That lack of story would add to the chaos, and make it feel more pure "game", which is what the purpose of Old School is. Games rarely have stories. That's a concept that came up in electronic games. This is the kind of game where I can think of no reason for a story rather than it's expected, which in this case is reason enough not to have it. There will be no correlation between level themes except that I think they all fit together in my head.

@dark coder, actually, I've used almost nothing from Mario . It does feel like it though. I mean, I'm not trying to avoid things that are like Mario, but I'm certainly not striving for them. And this was made in DBC. The new one will dbpro though, just because so much will be happening on screen. Adventure 19 (check the Dream thread for reference) though, will be made in DBC, at least until I feel I've accomplished everything I wanted to in DBC.

@Chris K, Thanks for trying, and I think it's a far cry from being a direct clone. Especially since I'm not trying to copy Mario at all, and aren't using the same game mechanics for most of it. It just happened that the paper like 3d game was a Mario one. I came up with the idea of flat 3d after making a number of platformers and realizing how cool it would look. I was originally against the idea, until I tried making a mini game that way.


I'll post one of the more recent drawings of Kreg. I think he's a pretty original character now, and is definitely recognisable.

Edit: Can we please drop the conversation about if I stole the image now? I've stated exactly what I did, and I'm not claiming to have done anything else. Nintendo obviously doesn't care that I made a very Paper Marioish character for a playground demo. And if they do, what will happen? Will they send me a cease and desist? I'm not even making it anymore! And if I have to remove it from my site, big deal. I'll have a playground demo for the new version up soon anyways. This new Old School is not at all mario, and you'd have a hard time saying I stole any of it. If people want, I can list where every idea I got came from, and then maybe if this gets popular enough, Gainax will sue me for using a guitar in the same way done in FLCL. Oh, or maybe Sega will sue me for using robots as baddies! Sorry for the sarcasm, but it's just silly to argue that I made a similar looking character a year ago that's going to be replaced with a much better version in a new version of the game. Of course, if people feel strongly enough about this issue, they can start a new thread about how this is worse than all the Mario and Zelda cookie cutter clones flying around the internet.

Seriously, I think it's more risky that I'm making a Links Awakening fan game, even though it's for my own use and no one else's, which is the equivalent of drawing a picture of Zelda and putting it in my sketchbook.

What decade are you living in?

I can see where you are coming from, but you have to be damn confident that the rest of the game can carry the player through the whole game, without wanting more from it. Sure, back at the start of the industry no games had any viable story to it and they were(and are) still fun, but now, people want more than just the ability to attack enemies in 8 different ways. IF the gameplay itself is varied enough to make the player continue running right for more than a couple of levels, then i don't think a story is really needed.
After playing the demo, you do have a good solid engine to work with, i think it needs to be developed on a little more if you expect people to play through a whole game. Maybe some kind of weapon/character upgrade system, something to aim for rather than just the end of the game.

@Oolite, err, notice I said GAMES. Not VIDEO games. Games like tag and kickball and darts have no story. The mixing of games and stories does not mean that one relies upon the other.

perhaps you should have finished the quote.


Yes, there have been games with stories before video games, but if so the game was usually more focused on the story than the game.


I think you're missing the point of it being "Old School". People really didn't seem to get what that means. The idea is that this is a game for the games sake. Of course that means it's ALL about the gameplay. I'm also not ignoring any category here but story. And you're argument does fall apart pretty easily. Does Echoes have a story? No, yet it's one of my favorite DB games. Does tetris have a story? DDR? And do people play Halo or Gears of War multiplayer for the story? Of course not, and the multiplayer could easily be it's own game. I can go on, and if I do, you might start to see why I don't feel a story is needed in every game.

And, like Dream this game will also be a piece of art, I think. It will just be a GAME piece of art, with every bit of it going into making the game more fun to play. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer the new sonic games WITHOUT their stories, and Mario going to save the princess isn't exactly what I'm playing for.

And yes, there will be a reason to play through the whole game. It just wont be to rescue the princess. There will be no permanent upgrades either.

I have to go now- I'll post later.


Edit: Of course I'm confident in the gameplay. I wouldn't make a game that I thought didn't have gameplay that could stand on it's own (aside from story/adventure games, which are all about the story).

Here's how I think about it when I make a game. Every part should be able to stand on it's own, and yet be enhanced by the rest. For instance, I should enjoy the music even if I'm not playing the game, like the way it looks alone enough that I could just see it as a video or picture, think the gameplay is good enough that I would would enjoy it by itself, and enjoy the story enough that I could read it as a book or short story and still enjoy it. After all this, I want the combination of everything to enhance each part, and that is the most basic thing I strive for when making a game. The subtleties come later.

Now, a basic Mario type story does not at all stand on it's own, and I'd only use such a thing if it was intentional and there for the sake of something else in the game that justifies it. Also, a deep and enjoyable story would go completely against this type of game I think. I don't want people to have to think about any sort of cohesive plot or anything. I DO plan to add subtleties of course, and there will be plenty of commentaries and hidden meanings. But I see no way that a story could enhance what I see in my head, and would only give it boundaries I had to stay in. I did come up with a number of plots, and after a while I realized I was taking away the simplicity of the game by adding any sort of story at all.


Edit2: Now, you have heard my part of the argument. I'm not telling people to stop trying to convince me that I should have a story, but I want people to actually understand my position so they can give a better argument either way. I'm still open to having a story, but only if someone can point out a reason that I should have one, given my argument.

First off, i'm not trying to start off an argument, or a debate because i simply don't care enough to try, but it seems my words aren't getting out as they are intended.
You picked out examples of games, classics if you will, that have worked without the need for any story, but they were all extremely fun to play and from what i've seen so far, i don't believe this could stand on its own without having something to drive the player, like you said, upgrades, they need to be damn worth playing through the levels for. Maybe an element of backtracking is needed in the game, like metroid. As i was saying anyway, all the games you mentioned had no story but worked anyway, just think of all the sh*te thats come out aswell, not just classics, you just need to hope you fall into this "classic" category.
I'm not trying to persuade you to do anything, i'm not going to be upset if go against what i've said, i'm just trying to give you an insight on what i would do. I can play tetris for hours, but i've never gone to my mates and told them about something cool thats happened in it, thats what i would try to aim for, a memorable experience, rather than a fun short lived one.
I can't stress enough how this is just my opinion, if i offended, my apologies, i just don't want this thread to end up escalating and getting locked.

No! You didn't offend at all. And yes, there will be a hook I'll go a lot more into detail about the gameplay when I post a wip thread (which wont be until after I release Dream). I'm also not trying to say there wont be a story, just that right now I'm of the opinion I shouldn't have one. I want to have this kind of argument/ debate, so I can get better feedback. I want people to tell me why I should or shouldn't do something, and you don't have to reassure me it's your opinion, because I'm assuming it is unless you say otherwise. I'm arguing on purpose, not because I don't appreciate what you've posted. Any points you bring up I'm thinking about, and even if I end up just trying to defend myself. It always make for a better game. If I just say, "ok, you can do that but I'm not going to", I'm just walking away from anyone else's opinion. I want opposition if someone actually feels that way, so that it's not entirely me thinking about the idea. If I knew people who could have a decent level of debate on this in person, I wouldn't have to go the the forum to do it.

If you'd rather I just said I'll take your post into consideration and then forget about it, you can pretend I did that and not respond. I'm going to argue a point though, because I WANT people to argue back.

Also, Tetris was just one of the examples. This would of course be a platformer, which in general people remember moments of a bit better than Tetris


Seriously, I'm not trying to have any flaming. I want an honest debate, in a way that will actually change the way I'm thinking about how I'm going to make the game. If someone thinks I should go with ultra realism instead of cartoony graphics, I want them to say so. I can't express how useful this kind of argument is.

And did you read the full post? I'm just curious because at the end I posted that I really do want people to try to convince me, if they disagree with one of my ideas. This isn't religion or anything, I want to get my ideas out, and have people get theirs out. People reading this and the people participating gain a lot from it. Open debates are a really good way of learning. This isn't flaming, as far as I'm concerned.

I had a big argument about the smart camera I was developing during the Nvidia Compo, and ended up using peoples feedback and debates to make a system that works really well, as far as I'm concerned. If that debate hadn't occurred, I would have never though of some of the things I did when I was defending myself, and would have never had a good idea of what people objected to about the camera in my demo.

So please, argue with me. If the thread ends up getting locked, it will be because there's a mod out there who thinks there shouldn't be any debates. This is a lot more worthwhile than the console wars flaming, and those have huge debate in them. The only problem is that most people seem to just glaze over what everyone else says. I'M not glazing over anything, I'm seriously considering what people say, I just want higher caliber arguments so that I can seriously start questioning my own decisions.

What i meant by this getting locked is that i didn't want it to escalate, i don't want to offend so i'm choosing my words carefully, because i know how things can (unfortunately) end up on this forum

Back on topic, i can't really say much more as i'd need to see your plans for the rest of the gameplay mechanics, i just wanted to stress that they really need to be completely solid to support themselves without a story, many platformer games work with little or no story, thats the nature of them, but if you want this to truly stand out it needs a lot more than whats on offer nowadays (and not just from the indie community).

Also, i just browsed your edits.

Woah long posts!
Is this an argument?

looks cool Bizar

I think Bizar Guy is right (sorry, no debate from me) - I only enjoy stories in a game if I can read them as short-stories or books - if they would be worthwhile reading as a book. Examples as Metal Gear Solid, Deus Ex, Starcraft - well, they just hit that goal.

A platformer on the other hand barely has a story. I can't honestly tell of any 2D platformer with an overwhelming story (mind you, it's 0:55AM) - either you need to save the world (Contra ect.) or a specific person (Mario ect.) or yourself (Uhm... what was it called) or a combination (Commander Keen ect.). Basically, most platformers rely on a single unique element (usually powerups: mushroom, pogo stick) and a specific style. In common they have fluid controls and a sympathic protagonist.

You need to have something to push the player forward, though. In most good platformers I tend to notice that the goal is progress and challenge. Each pack of levels is built in such a way that there is one 'memorable moment' and in a increasing difficulty that challenges the player at all times. Gameplay that promotes progress is good gameplay.

That being said, I think that you should aim for level design as your main focus.