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Geek Culture / Which language?

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Cyber Dude
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 16:46
Hey. Some of you may have seen me posting in the DBP related boards latly. Im learnign DBP buy only for myself. SO im going to learn a second language aswell.To help me get a job when im old enough becouse i dont wanna be working at tesco all my life on minamum wage.

I just cant choose. I really like the sound of Vb i know one command in it but i made an app im pretty proud of for 1 line. I know mroe C++ i know like teh basics and a few commands but nothing compared to what i did in VB. I was wonderign if terhe was any other languags you guys think i should concider. Please i really cant choose one.

Ive am also intrested in making some DLLS for DBP when im better in whatever language i use.

I also thought of getting DGK as well as using DBP. I was to go with DGK i would probly use VB becouse: if i wanted to make a terrain creator i wouldent have to worry about the inferface and onyl need to program the inportant stuff instead of worrying how the UI looks.

It dosent matter what language you guys suggest i can just grab a free compiler get an EBook and see if its for me.

Thanks,
Cyber Dude
Cyberish

Cyber-Cyberish
Jess T
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 17:17
Go with C++.

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Cyber Dude
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 17:41
Quote: "Go with C++."


Can you tell me why i should?. I men i know a tiny bit allready. But iw asnt too keen on it maybee if you can perswade me too . Also forgot to mention im intrested in web languages like php/flashh and stuff liek that aswell.

Cyber-Cyberish
Jeku
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 18:30
If you want to get a job in the game industry, learn C++ as it's industry standard.

David R
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 18:39
Quote: "If you want to get a job in the game industry, learn C++ as it's industry standard."


When stuff like that is said, it always makes me feel better that I bothered to learn it


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Chris K
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 18:41
Yep.

Can't get a job as a programmer unless you know C++.

Same goes for being an artist and Maya/Max and Photoshop.

Also if you want to be a designer a lot of people want you to know Lua.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 19:22
Quote: "When stuff like that is said, it always makes me feel better that I bothered to learn it "

Especially if Jeku is the one saying it.

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Jonny_S
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 21:08 Edited at: 24th Sep 2007 21:16
Quote: "Can't get a job as a programmer unless you know C++."

I disagree, you most certainly won't get a job as a games programmer without a good knowledge of C++. Outside of games programming its quite possible to get a job working with other languages, my uni has a work placement opportunity with Birmingham Midshires which requires knowledge of VB.NET no C++ necessary. Most/Some (Just incase someone wants to get picky with my choice of words) business solutions prefer speed of development over the speed of the actual program which is why VB and now VB.NET/C#/Java/etc are quite popular choices outside of the games industry.

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Chris K
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 21:21
Yes I meant programmer in the games industry.

I can't see it changing for a long time, either, I mean games are always going to need the speed. People still write little bits of C and ASM when they think C++ is too slow.

If someone writes some unbelievable compiler for C# or Java or something that is just as fast as C then maybe, but I still doubt it seeing as every games studio already works in C++.

Maybe if an indie developer made a massively succesful game in another language, and then started a studio that only coded in that, and then kept having megahit after megahit until they were the size of EA or Square Enix, and then if about ten other companies did that too, then maybe the industry standard might change.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
Cyber Dude
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Posted: 24th Sep 2007 21:45
Yeah ypur write C++ is my best chance to get into teh agmign industry. But how hard would it be to find work?. I mean if im not going to get a job in it becouse terhe are no jobs tehre is np point really. And im only young still. Ive got a good 5 years to learn it on my own so i can take my time.

Cyber-Cyberish
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 04:07
C++. Almost everything, from the Operating Systems, to games, and standard applications are done in C/C++. C++ is a better version of C, IMO.

http://www.cppreference.com
http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/

Have fun.


Cheers,

-naota

DBP, $80. DBP's plugins, $320. Watching DBP Crash, Priceless.
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Satchmo
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 04:13
Quote: "If someone writes some unbelievable compiler for C# or Java or something that is just as fast as C"


If only Lee would write an unbelievable compiler for dbp that's just as fast as assembly....

Your about to get pwned.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 04:16 Edited at: 25th Sep 2007 04:17
If only Lee would write a compiler that's at least half as fast as C...

DBP, $80. DBP's plugins, $320. Watching DBP Crash, Priceless.
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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 05:45
Okay let me add an asterisk to my comment.

You can get a job programming mobile games if you know Java But, other than that, stick with C++

Jess T
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 07:06
Quote: "Can you tell me why i should?"


Sorry, was in a hurry, but these guys have explained it for me

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Cyber Dude
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 12:12
No probs im convinced with C++. Just wondering how the games for the xbox and ps3 are made. Obvisly with C++ but does it use Dirextx or custom one?. Also can i ask again how easy it is to get a job in game development. Im pretty intrested in getting a job in game programing but even app will be fine by me as long as i enjoy it.

Cyber-Cyberish
Jonny_S
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 13:43 Edited at: 25th Sep 2007 13:45
Go to uni and get a degree, at the moment you'll find most programming jobs specify a degree in computer science or the equivalent. Although you said you had a good 5 years to learn, so the whole 'you need a degree!' thing might have died down by then, especially since the worth of a degreee has decreased so much.
Console games are created using dev kits that can only be obtained from the console manufacturer, you could go the homebrew route though, do a google search for "*name of console* homebrew" I'm sure something will come up.

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Cyber Dude
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 13:49
Thanks Jonny_s, i can only find one prolem. When i sya ive got a good 5 years to learn i mean its around 5 years until i can go to university. So getting a degrea might not be the easyist thnig at the time .

Cyber-Cyberish
Jeku
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Posted: 25th Sep 2007 21:37
Quote: "especially since the worth of a degreee has decreased so much."


How so?

Jonny_S
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Posted: 26th Sep 2007 13:59 Edited at: 26th Sep 2007 14:00
Because so many people get a degree now, a degree no longer makes you stand out above the crowd. Most jobs that I've looked at want a degree & 2 years experience or something of the sort, of course there are jobs for graduates but they're not as easy to come by. Also from what I've see from some of my mates who decided not to go to uni by the time I'm finished and have my degree they will be at the same or higher level than me and that will be without the thousands of pounds of debt.
The fact is that uni's are offering a wider range of courses and allowing much lower entry requirements. I don't know what its like in the US but a kid at my school passed one of his 4 final exams and got the lowest grade you can get (an E), yet hes gone to uni and is doing computer science, thats a joke! It was the same for me aswell, I got into a *good* uni but they even told me that a few years before I wouldn't have made it onto the course, they had only recently dropped there grade boundaries. Uni's are all about how much money they can make now imo.

sorry for the big post , feel free to tear it apart, there are probably holes in what I have said, I began to rant quite a bit.

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Jess T
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Posted: 26th Sep 2007 15:30
Quote: "Because so many people get a degree now, a degree no longer makes you stand out above the crowd."


That doesn't make the worth of the degree any less!

Quote: "Most jobs that I've looked at want a degree & 2 years experience or something of the sort"


That's true, that's why in my spare time at Uni, I do professional websites, make indi games, and generally just beef up my resume so that when I go for the job, I can say "Hey, I've done all this as well as doing my degree!"

Quote: "by the time I'm finished and have my degree they will be at the same or higher level than me and that will be without the thousands of pounds of debt."


And without all that extra knowledge. If you're working a job, you're doing a single task that they've got you assigned to for 6 months, mean-while, at Uni, in that same 6 months, you've just learnt about 4 specialist topics. When they're hiring, if you can show you've learnt all that stuff, you're the one they'll take over someone who's only been working.

Quote: "allowing much lower entry requirements."


Here in Australia, the 'entry requirements' aren't based on grades.
We get a University Admission Index (UAI) which basically ranks our final grade from school against all other students in the state with 100.00 being the highest, going down in .05 decrements.
When you apply for your Uni course, they get everyone's applications together, and order them from best to worst. They just take people off the top of the pile until the course is full, or there's no more applicants.
So, in essence, an Australian degree can never have its entry requirements lowered

Quote: "Uni's are all about how much money they can make now"


Now? They've always been about making money. All institutions are. But, the lecturers and Professors who teach there are about imparting knowledge and hopefully giving someone the kick-start they need to becoming the next biggest thing in their field.


Anyway, if I go for a job straight out of Uni, and I'm up against someone with no degree, they'll look at mine and think "Hey, a High-Distinction student (85%+), graduated with Honors, and has done professional work on the side. Hired."

... At least, I hope so

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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Sep 2007 20:42
Quote: "Because so many people get a degree now, a degree no longer makes you stand out above the crowd."


Still, nothing beats a real degree from a real university

Jane Doe
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Posted: 26th Sep 2007 22:03
Jonny_S:

Quote: "Because so many people get a degree now, a degree no longer makes you stand out above the crowd."


Then not having one would be more likely to make you stand out below the crowd.

Cyber Dude:

Speaking of languages, I’m curious as to what your native language is. What country do you live in?

- Jane
Jonny_S
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Posted: 27th Sep 2007 00:51
I was never arguing against getting a degree...arg I can't be bothered too sleepy .

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David R
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Posted: 27th Sep 2007 18:36
Quote: "That doesn't make the worth of the degree any less!"


Actually, it does - basic economics dictate that the more of a resource availible, the lesser its value


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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2007 18:46
It's not a resource...
It's the knowledge you learn from earning your degree. And unless you are like some of the dead-beats around my Uni who just barely pass to get it, then you should know a hell of a lot more for what you paid. That little bit of paper (The Degree) proves to anyone and everyone that you know all this extra stuff.

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Sep 2007 23:13
Quote: "Actually, it does - basic economics dictate that the more of a resource availible, the lesser its value"


Not when it comes to a degree. And it also depends on the school you attended. If you have a CS degree from MIT, it doesn't matter how many other people have it. But, if you have a degree from a University or Art school nobody has heard of, it might still be tough to find work.

I got my degree from a University about an hour outside Vancouver, and *nobody* here has heard of it. It's a little shocking, really, but at least I was still able to wiggle my way in.

Jess T
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Posted: 28th Sep 2007 09:28
My Uni's Charles Sturt University, which isn't one of the 'big' well-known ones, but they have campuses all over the world (even Canada ), so hopefully when I go for a job, they'll have heard of it.
That, and it offers a specialized course that isn't available anywhere else in Australia (until last year)

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David R
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Posted: 28th Sep 2007 18:16 Edited at: 28th Sep 2007 18:16
Touche. Treating degrees like a generic economic resource is kind of stupid I suppose, seeing as though there a are a bunch of different attributes dictating their value too... I take back my previous comment


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 29th Sep 2007 07:02
IMO a degree shouldn't matter, it should be your experience, and what you can do... I know this probably isn't the case, but still it would be nice if it was... If you could just up and program something proving that you have what it takes... Showing previous work and the such... That's my humble opinion though, unfortunately you must attend a school for what you already know to get anywhere in life, quite a shame...

On the topic of school, history is pointless.. A basic understanding of what happened is fine, but history shouldn't be what makes you graduate! Plus, what's the point in knowing what a noun is? I mean, if you know how to formulate a sentence, that's all that should matter! The only reason it would be useful is if you were a teacher, and how many people here wanna grow up/have grown up wanting to be a teacher? And why the hell is it so important to do 50 math problems on the same thing? 10 or 20 I can understand, but 50 is just pointless! *End of rant*



Cheers,

-naota

DBP, $80. DBP's plugins, $320. Watching DBP Crash, Priceless.
NG Website Aex.Uni forums
Jess T
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Posted: 29th Sep 2007 07:08
Aaron, In almost all modern cognitive models (ie, how the brain works), repetition is the key for long-term memory. 50x is going to get it into your head 5x better than doing it 10x (roughly).

As for english and history, etc, in schools. Unfortunatly, they have to cater for all eventualities. Some people may go on to be historians, journalists, etc.
I hated those classes as well, but that was because I was more interested in learning computer languages than the one I use to speak

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Jeku
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Posted: 29th Sep 2007 07:12
Quote: "unfortunately you must attend a school for what you already know to get anywhere in life, quite a shame..."


That's exactly what I thought heading into University, but boy was I wrong. I learned a lot (but forgot it all in the end).

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 29th Sep 2007 07:24
@Jess T
I heard that teaching something to others is even better for sticking it into your own head, therefor if an assignment is to teach it to another, it'd be quicker, and better for you. (Based only on what I heard)

Unfortunately schools don't cater to a person's own needs and thoughts. If you learn complex math through elementary (partly) and junior high (mainly), what's the point in doing it all again in high school, except for tests and stuff? IMO, a school model which caters to the needs of the student is better than an "in general" school model. Elementary should cater to in general, and so should junior high... But High School itself should not, as that is when you are preparing to get a job and must cater to that to learn mainly what is needed.

@Jeku
A university should be able to teach you a bunch of what you don't know, but I'm speaking of high school, as a university is optional, and a higher level of expertise. Anyways all I'm trying to say is that there's gotta be a better way for the education system to be implemented, my ideas are simply thoughts.


Cheers,

-naota

DBP, $80. DBP's plugins, $320. Watching DBP Crash, Priceless.
NG Website Aex.Uni forums

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