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Geek Culture / Let me share a revelation with you!

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Mnemonix
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Location: Skaro
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 13:21
It has come to my attention after aproxiamtely 6 months of frequenting this forum that if a newcomer comes along they basically have no chance.

Newcomer comes along, he doesnt know how this forum works, he posts something he spent a lot of time and learning to produce and everybody on the forum will list at least 10 things that are wrong. If they cannot find any programming flaws people will contradict models, or texture alignment or anything.

Why do a lot of people on this forum criticise people about their work and i have seen very good work being criticised. It is probably because most of the time the work being displayed is better than their own.

I might be wrong in this matter, I know there are many positive statements that go in this forum as well and it does have a good helpful community so people can find out about programming issues and get them solved.

I value other peoples opinions here, good or bad, against me or with me.

Just dont make a flame out of this post
"We are getting aggravated"
"Yes, we are"
adr
21
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Location: Job Centre
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 14:08
Have you ever come across a programmer who isn't pedantic, arrogant, or overly-critical?

I don't want to sound like an old fart, but it's generally the younger forum-goers who haven't developed the tact, or "office-politics" required to get you through life

indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 14:11
thats an enigma of life mate.

Imagine a million situations that temper the mood of the responder whos aim or objective stems from the output of there current situation they are in.

Frustration can stem from other things tho like diabetes yet its no excuse to be rude or insulting for sure.

A little mickey or jeer is quite healthy but its hard to assume whos on the other side, most of the time its not a friendly jeer but an assumed ideal of who that person is on the other side from there output.

a book is compiled in our minds just like the forum posts, Everyone has a similar picture but a far greater diversity of character is the result in the response.

MrTAToad
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 14:50
I wont (usually) point out programming errors unless there are bugs in it (or there is an easier way of doing it). I will, however, point out spelling mistakes (Indi - tho ?), and if its already been done before.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
BatVink
Moderator
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 16:36 Edited at: 9th Jun 2003 16:38
Sometimes, people need a prod, and that's difficult to do in a Forum, without sounding condescending.

For example, if someone asks:

Do I need to add ENDIF to the end of every IF clause?

the simple way to find out is to do it! You'll find dozens of examples of questions where no effort has been made whatsoever.

On the other hand, there are people in here that will virtually write the entire code on someone's behalf. Very helpful and knowledgable people. Unfortunately, there are others who take advantage of their generosity.

That's where the problem starts...born givers and born takers. I guarantee you'll find contributors whose posts are made up of 99% questions, with little or no contribution back into the community.

Here's my suggestions for the takers:

1. If you achieve something, don't keep the new knowledge to yourself (Empire Building), tell everyone. We'll learn, you'll feel good about yourself.

2. If someone tells you how to do something, thank them, and tell us all how you took their advice a little bit further to improve it. We'll learn, you'll feel good about yourself.

3. If you are a beginner, don't be afraid to ask lots of questions, but tell us how you've tried to solve it yourself first. We still might learn something, and you'll still feel good about yourself.

Thanks in advance.
All the Best,
StevieVee
Dave J
Retired Moderator
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Location: Secret Military Pub, Down Under
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 16:47
I'd have to disagree with you Mnemonix. When I came here I asked about 5 or 6 different questions right away and all received positive and helpful replies.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Andy Igoe
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 9th Jun 2003 18:15
Yes you are right we should ease off the noobies, they only count in the event of a tie anyway.

Pneumatic Dryll
Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 18:42
@Mneumonix

It depends how you take criticism. We were all newbies once. If I want a guaranteed apraisal of my work, I go to RGT. But I get fed up of "yeh.. thats cool", and no advice or criticism. I like the fact that you get help at Apollo and you get an honest appraisal of your work.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
HZence
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 01:49
Everyone's a critic.

MikeS
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 02:02
Recently we have gotten many more newbies to this forum.5 or 6 new ones in the last 3 days.I say we just help them out when we ask questions,they'll learn, and we'll feel better about ourselves.

My point is help the new guys out, unless it becomes really ridiculous, don't solve everything for them.(like if it's a code) get them started and point them to the tutorials.(if they're really new.)If they still need some help, go ahead and help them.

I still consider myself a newbie at programming with the DB language.



(Current)-Conquest of the Continent Announced!!-
(progress)-concept/story/goals finished-
(misc.)learning m-shape&ts5 (as current as)6-9-03
Misanthrope
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 03:59
I still think honesty is the best policy, and sometimes there's just no way to say certain things nicely. You can't fix something if you don't know it's wrong in the first place, after all, and if the newbie doesn't want honest appraisals of their publicly shown work, then he/she shouldn't even post said work in the first place.

This is just my personal experience, but the way I feel about it is essentially that I don't need the adulation or approval of internet forumgoers to self-actualize...and the sole reason I would post something is precisely because I would want people to give me a honest appraisal of my work. If it sucks, I need to know, because I can't fix the egregious suckage otherwise. If there's nothing wrong with it, then that's great...but what I'm expecting is honest critiques.

Anyone who submits work for public consumption, like writers, painters, poets, sculptors, or 3D artists, runs the risk of being harshly criticized. It's a fact of life, and it's something that everybody should understand and accept before publicizing any work.

Mindless, gushing praise can be nice at times, but not when it's obviously insincere. I also find it pointless to submit work for public perusal if everybody else on the forum in question is still struggling with the basics. I have to actually go to Polycount and other places for technical information because there's really not very many people on the 3D Canvas forums who I consider qualified to offer me peer-level advice and commentary.

I realize I probably just said something that made me sound incredibly arrogant, so let me present a real example. This is a model that I did in 3D Canvas Pro, and it was intended to become a cut-fold-and-glue 1/60th scale paper model of a science fiction VTOL gunship. In order to be practical for a tabletop wargame, it needed to be easy to construct, so I went with a lot of flat, angular surfaces in a relatively simple overall shape.

This is a 3D Canvas render of the finished model for the assembly instructions:

http://www.amabilis.com/gallery/Mel%20Ebbles%20-%20feiqiu_001%20-%20Large.jpg

And this is the exact same model, printed, cut, and assembled off my inkjet printer a year and a half ago:

http://www.papyrusminiatures.netfirms.com/ultinomicon/feiqiu.jpg

I posted that model on the 3D Canvas forums and the responses were all "Cool! Great! Wow!"...but those responses were also given to others who posted untextured blobs or chrome delights, so I felt like these forums weren't quite objective or honest. And that's the primary reason I don't normally post my works in a public venue.

For the sake of completion, this is a quick and dirty articulated mecha I did to help Richard Borsheim test 3D Canvas's v6 subdivision surface modeling capability. If I had the time or the desire, I'd love to put a simplified (1x subdivision, this model is at 3x subdivision) and textured version of it in a DB/DBP game.

http://www.amabilis.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/Attachments/mels_bug_current.jpg

Again, I get nothing but "Wow!" and "Cool Bug!". I'd have loved to see just one person complaining about how it looks top heavy and how the center of gravity is so far backwards that the loading on the two rear leg joints would be grossly out of proportion to that of the two front leg pairs. Or even just pointing out that the interval spacing between the three pairs of hip joints are too close for a real hexapod walk cycle. Then I'd feel like somebody was being honest.

But my modelling is generally oriented towards CAD/CAM rapid-prototyping and tabletop gaming. Every once in a while I do make a 3D game model for no good reason other than because I can, and because it's neato to see something you made yourself come to life onscreen.

Anyway, I digressed too much. But my point was just that honesty should be the best policy for feedback, and if the poster can't handle that, then they shouldn't post. My two dollars.

-Misanthrope
Misanthrope
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 04:10
I also forgot to mention that I feel the exact same way about any code I post.

-Misanthrope
HZence
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 05:14
Okeydokey then...

Soyuz
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 11:59
So maybe there should be two showcase areas. One for people wanting honest opinions no matter how harsh or demoralising, and another for people who just want some encouragement whether their work is impressive or crap.
actarus
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Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 10th Jun 2003 16:09 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 16:10
Soyuz both wouldn't help.

I think people are missing the point in comments and critiques.

It's supposed to help improve.That's all.


While most of us criticize models and code performances,actually just a few of us CAN take those critiques with humility and transcend them into positivity.

What makes me full of it is those modelers/coders that get all flamey as soon as a mistake,lack of style or any other error is pointed out as if the freakin skies were to collapse on them...That's what keep them for evolving further and the only thing I can say is...Too bad!

Personally,critiques helps me alot...But it only does when you are able to toss your little pride aside and stop being a stubborn closed-minded mr.perfect.


My 2 Cents.

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
John H
Retired Moderator
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Location: Burlington, VT
Posted: 10th Jun 2003 16:41 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 16:45
The only thing that bugs me is when a newcomers comes along, and as Steve mentions says something like "Whats a LOOP do?" where you can just read the manual. I think we would have HALF as many questions if newcomers just sat down and read the manual, and tried out the commands so they would learn them.

It also bugs me when newcomers come along, and head STRAIGHT to the team request forum and post something like...

Hey I have this great idea for a MMORPG, im new to DB but im sure if enough good programmers and 3d artists and stuff help out we can make a really great game!

Personally,,,I think there should be big red flashing caution signs on the "Team Request Rules" post, as since that was posted I have seen 5 (tops) team requests that followed the rules (not to brag but mine was one of them.) That has been irritating me lately, as people CONTINUE to post nonsense requests even after Rich made such a nice rule post. No one follows it. I really think we should start enforcing that rule a bit more, as right now, the only thing we can do is say "Please edit your post" I think if people continue to post this rubbish team requests, we should simply give them a warning, and if they dont edit their post, then delete it! There is no sense in having a rule if it isnt inforced!

I also want to bring into standpoint something said in one of the first paragraphs of the team request rules, even before the rules are said!!

Quote: "
We will delete posts that do not conform with this
"


That is not being done! I think that if we ask someone to edit their post, and by the next time they post in that thread, the post is not edited, then they can say BYE BYE to that post! There is a full fledged warning in the rules, so if they had read them, they should have seen that, and abided by the rules.

So what do you guys say? We HAVE to start enforcing these rules! We dont want this to turn into a law that is there that is never enforced! This cant turn into a "Well ya thats a rule but no one ever gets punished for it" I think we have to start showing some muscle, and put a foot down!

Are you with me!!!!!

CHEERS!!!

RPGamer

Yes I was letting off a little anger here, but seriously, these team requests have been getting on my nerves...a lot

Current Project: Eternal Destiny
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Go to the Eternal Destiny Forum!
Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 16:52
It annoys me how people can spend so much planning an important post asking for help and then all these other people come along critisising the main post and not helping whatsoever, thus messing up a perfectly good thread. I quite agree with Mnemonix because all people seem to do here is just boss people about and have a go at them. If you want to pass critisism on someones post then how about e-mailing the person instead of just annoying them and getting in their way? If they dont have thier e-mail address on thier profile then dont say anything. If you dont want to help, then dont reply to posts

You didn’t kick them, you just pushed them with your foot at a very high velocity!
actarus
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 17:48
...and please,stop posting single smiley or lol posts...what a waste.

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
Ian T
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 17:50
Sorry guys, but that's just how a little thing called life works... I myself have reversed those habits and actually snipe at old-timers quite a bit. Very few as old as I am of course...

Misanthrope, you might fail to notice that lots of people don't look for errors. A lot of people aren't pedantic. Accept a compliment for what it is, and take people's word for it more-- if you trust friendly comments that little, then honesty won't get you anywhere!

MrTAtoad, don't correct indi please . He's been spelling like this ever since I saw his first post, and I doubt he'll change! It's not too hard to get used too.

What really bugs me is awful grammatical and spelling errors in peoples' posts-- and then them taking corrections (which they should be glad for, just like constructive criticism) as attacks...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 18:39
What annoys me is people correcting language and grammer in posts, the language we should be focusing on is DarkBASIC. This is not an English class.

I myself am reasonably elloquent, although my spelling is not great and my grammer is sometimes replaced by typists fever I have never been corrected for such errors.

However it bugs me when I read a post, that perhaps was not too easy to read but makes a valid point or question, then somebody else says learn English instead of addressing the issue.

This forum is international, even English culture is fairly international. English is the language of the forums but it is not the primary language of every user. Personally I would be happy if DarkBASIC was extended to include a meens of communication on a day to day basis as certainly it is easier to think in than English!

A good case in question is Dr Occult. I can understand individual words that he types, but the sentences to not conforum to a language I understand. However my understanding is that he makes valid points and is technically adept.

Now lets presume that I need a technical question answered and Dr Occult answers it for me, but I cannot understand the answer. Do you A) Insult Dr Occult for his spelling and grammar or b) Help me bridge the gap between English and the good Dr.

Another very recent example: "I have a bag editor". The post was written by an Italian who was having trouble with the editor. Clearly he didn't speak English very well and was probably using an internet translator.

Several people made fun of the postee's English and incorrect choice of words, personally I tried to answer the guy in his native language, and yes I made fun out of my Italian in the English section of my post but I addressed the issue, and hopefully in a humerous way. Which is a step above just posting a flame that the guy had said bag instead of bad.

Pneumatic Dryll
actarus
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 18:41 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 18:43
-What really bugs me is awful grammatical and spelling errors in peoples' posts

I suggest NOT coming on RGT or even near Vprime's posts then.

Plus,have you ever thought that English isn't the only language in the world and some people here aren't necessarly fluently speaking or writing it(for instance me being French...yes a frog) and that most of us don't really care how elaborate or grammatically advanced the sentences may sound or get or is your little 'Me,Myself and I' world too tight for even considering this?

Quote from you...(sarcastic?)

-Anyone who knows me knows that my personal secret weapon is correction of spelling/grammer and sarcasm. Have you been tracking me, sir


Can you find how many grammar errors there are in your sentence?

Not to talk about the blatant use of the same word twice...A sign of a bad use of English itself.(but here am I using this 'correcting' also)

You're probably still learning it all though so it's understandable.

Still,you don't come from any better place to tell someone they can't spell or combine words.

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 18:46
'However it bugs me when I read a post, that perhaps was not too easy to read but makes a valid point or question, then somebody else says learn English instead of addressing the issue.'

Sorry that was me . I have changed now though

You didn’t kick them, you just pushed them with your foot at a very high velocity!
Arrow
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 22:22 Edited at: 10th Jun 2003 22:23
What it basicly gets down to is ignorance. The few noobs that expect to make the next FF in a week, and the more experanced coder who look down on others without reason. If people would stop and think before posting, we wouldn't have these kinda problems. The greatest shortage in the world right now is common sence and desency.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
Shadow
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Posted: 10th Jun 2003 22:53
They probably say "learn English" because they can't figure out what the post is trying to say (+ they aren't very polite)
MrTAToad
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 01:30
Thats quite true - sometimes its takes ages to work out what they're trying to say...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Mattman
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 01:57
I'm a noob, just joined forums last week and got helpful, wonderful replies from almost everyone!

---Mattman
"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done." Andy Rooney
Misanthrope
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 02:19
Mouse: "Misanthrope, you might fail to notice that lots of people don't look for errors. A lot of people aren't pedantic. Accept a compliment for what it is, and take people's word for it more-- if you trust friendly comments that little, then honesty won't get you anywhere!"

Yeah, Mouse, but like I said in my post, compliments don't really mean very much if a screenshot of a successful MAKE OBJECT SPHERE command gets just as many glowing compliments as a very complex boned and animated model done in 3D Studio Max with all the bells and whistles.

And you're right, a lot of people are not pedantic nor do they actively look for errors. But still, my point is that there are times when you just don't know how much the comments are worth if there's no good way to quantify what "Awesome" or "Lame" means when it's used all over the place. "Awesome" on Polycount or Flipcode isn't quite used for the same level of praise as it is on a budget gametool forum. That's my problem with most of these forums, this ambiguous objectivity on the part of the responses.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but my dad had an interesting saying which he related to me once: "Regardless of whether your dog loves or hates your cooking, just remember that something that happily eats its own turds has no business being a food critic."

-Misanthrope
Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 02:32
Misanthrope..I to believe as you do. I get edgy when I see sh*t praised...however I've stopped myself lots of times because I realize I can get allot better too..and on occasion I've posted work to get 'WOAH!' and just to feel vindicated ...ok I've confessed!!!

Mnemonix:
Yes your right...those poor little newbies just jump right in the fire!! Those that get back up stay..those that can't take it are just normal. I'm a big fan of 'think before you speak'..just most people dont do that. Oh well..life will conitune and the sun will rise tomorrow...and the next batch of newbies just waiting to cast themselves upon spears of harsh critizim are waiting outside the door...

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 02:58
I'm a big fan of 'speak before u think, then use Edit button to re-speak after a re-think'! lol!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 03:03
Been there done that, got the T-shirt

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 03:18
a t-shirt with an Edit button?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Arrow
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 08:14
That would be a nice bit of pop culture, I'ld buy it along with a NES controler t-shirt.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
The admiral
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Posted: 11th Jun 2003 10:06
Its how new programmers learn...no pain no gain.

[href]www.vapournet.com/~flyer[/href]

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