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Geek Culture / Career-wise

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Zotoaster
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Location: Scotland
Posted: 2nd Oct 2007 23:19 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2007 23:20
I'm in my last year of Secondary school, and moving on to Uni afterwards. The "best" uni for computer things in Scotland apparently is Paisley university, but I was just reading through the website, and it seems pretty shabby. There's one computer game tech course, and it's just general things about game development, i.e. you do some 2D things, some 3D things, you make some 3D models, etc. I.e. everything is just a taster. It's the only university I can think to go to in the UK, but I think I could do better than that. I mean, if I do go there, it will get me a job, but, without sounding arrogant, I want as top-level, next-gen, cutting-edge job as I can get. I know, I sound like I want too much, but I think I am talented (definatelly more than my teacher, at Advanced Higher level), and I am drastically improving. Infact, if anything, I am already university level - in Advanced Higher, the highest course you can do in Scotland, you dont even learn how to use Functions. ¬_¬ I can only imagine what kind of crap I get taught in university. "Here's how to make a function!!!!" and everyone will be very excited with themselfs and I'll be falling asleep. I mean really, if you dont learn functions in this level, then you *must* learn them in uni! That's degrading!

Anyone have any recommendations? I dont want to make a stupid choice that will have me making games that people will be playing while they're waiting in queues for the rest of my life

Cheers

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2007 23:28
I feel the same. I can code in three languages. Why the hell am I allowing myself to be dictated to by a teacher who can't use Office, for goodness' sake, and thinks she knows it all? She had to call out a technician for a broken mouse! Really, I don't doubt I could do better. GCSE level ICT is rubbish. Even when I was doing DiDA, it was a little poor in places. After an unfortunate house move at the end of Year 10, though, I'm now on a useless GCSE course. The work's easy. There's just so much planning junk, usually typing 5-10 pages for a simple catalogue cover, that it's a wonder anything gets done at all. Maybe the best thing would be to make sure you know the ins and outs of C, build a killer portfolio and jump straight to work? Certifications are hard to come by if you live in the middle of nowhere. Which is the best description of Uttoxeter.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Jonny_S
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2007 23:37
Don't go to a crappy uni, honestly if you know you can get into better then do. I got into some good uni's (not oxford or the sort but in the top 15 uni's in the country) but backed out at the last minute and decided to go to my local uni (in the bottom 5 uni's in the country ). I pretty much regret it every day I have to go in to that sh*t hole now. Uni isn't all about the education (its about cheap drinks and fast women), but you can get that at all unis so you might aswell get the best you can since your the one who is going to be lumbered with the debts afterwards.

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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 00:12
If I were you I wouldn't only go to a Uni that has game programming courses. A good computer science or related degree will be all that you need to get an entry-level programming job in the game industry.

And I wouldn't expect to get the most kick-ass position doing exactly what you want right off the start. You will most likely start as a grunt and move your way up--- that's how it is for nearly everybody who just graduates, regardless of your skill, unfortunately.

Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 00:18
I agree Jeku on both your points. I dont mind starting at the bottom off the ladder and climbing up. What worries me the most is where I will stop climbing.

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 00:28
Bradford is supposed to be the place to be for media-based degrees. They hold big festivals every year now.

It might be worth contacting Game Republic, they can probably put you in touch with people who can make recommendations based on actual experience. I can give you a name there if you drop me a mail.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 01:49
You could come to the US, we have some more here . Where I am planning on going next year has a great new program, including a special "gaming track" in Computer Science, that still counts as a Bachelor of Science, but just focuses on games http://www.ecs.baylor.edu/computer_science/index.php?id=43233
and an entire section of campus with brand new buildings and dorms devoted to Engineering and Computer Science
http://www.baylor.edu/cll/index.php?id=39597

Anyway, obviously I can't help you much, considering you live in the UK and I in the US. I do think that you shouldn't go to that school that you're talking about, but rather go somewhere where you can focus on one thing (like game programming), and then work your way up, you can't start at your dream job .


Sopo the tocho
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 01:58
Most game developers company's looks for experienced people usually 3 years or above with degrees.After UNI you should search job first in a little company instead of a big one for acquire some experience.


Intel Pentium core 2 duo T6600 2,6 mhz 4mb, 4 gb ram 600 mhz ddr2
GatorHex
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 02:31
If you want a total gaming degree come to Bolton Universty

http://data.bolton.ac.uk/courses/course_search.asp?keywords=games&template=university

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Jess T
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 03:39
Quote: "I can only imagine what kind of crap I get taught in university. "Here's how to make a function!!!!" and everyone will be very excited with themselfs and I'll be falling asleep."


Exactly how it is/was with me and my course. As you probably know, I do a Games Technology course at Uni, and I'm finishing my 3rd Year now. In first year, it was all 'introductory' stuff (basically, all the high level math I'd already done in high school, and then all the introductory programming stuff I'd done in my spare time). It was boring as hell, but it was good because I got top-notch grades, and enjoyed my first year at Uni.
After that, it got harder. I stayed on top of things because I already had that knowledge down. But for those that struggled with the introductory stuff, they did even worse and by the end of the semester, our class size was cut in half. It just got harder and harder from there. It's great!


Quote: "Why the hell am I allowing myself to be dictated to by a teacher who can't use Office, for goodness' sake"


Tell me about it!
My 'Computer Science' teacher in High School was a complete idiot. He was trained and qualified as a Music teacher, but somehow he got a job as the Comp Sci teacher. I think it was because at one stage he ran his own 'website' business. It was more like, he learnt how to use FrontPage from a 2yo, then charged people for it. Painful!


Quote: "A good computer science or related degree will be all that you need to get an entry-level programming job in the game industry."


Ahh, but if you find the right course (mine, for example), they do basic Comp Sci stuff, but then assume you know the rest and skip straight ahead to the advanced stuff so they can throw game-specific things at you. For someone like me, or you, it's ideal.


Quote: "Most game developers company's looks for experienced people"


Unfortunatly, yeah.
If you're lucky, though, the Uni can hook you up with an unpaid internship that counts toward your degree, then if you do good, they'll offer you a position.
That way, the company gets a free worker, you get experience and course credits, and possibly a job out of it. Win-win.


Zotoaster,
One thing I can't recommend enough is research the course first. Find out the classes in each, the level of experience required before acceptance, etc.

And, don't be afraid to move away. It's a bit daunting at first, but you'll get on great, and if you pick the right course, it'll pay off

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
GatorHex
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 03:57 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 03:59
Tell you the truth forget University, make a cool demo and rock up to that guy who made Crackdowns place, I hear he's got a big multi-milion pound advance for his next project and he's hiring in Dundee.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 10:50
Quote: "If you're lucky, though, the Uni can hook you up with an unpaid internship that counts toward your degree, then if you do good, they'll offer you a position."


Or even better try to do a co-op position for paid We do that at work---- the student comes in and works his butt off and gets paid (not nearly as much as "real" programmers, but good for paying his next semester's tuition). It counts toward a class in most Uni's, so I would definitely recommend that. I personally know a few of those who have returned to work with us full time after finishing their degree. Highly recommended. I see no drawback at all.

Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 11:39
Quote: "Ahh, but if you find the right course"
Better hope they don't blanket chuck out any CV without a BSC Comp Sci on it. That's what we used to do. Get a hundred CV's a month and it is less time consuming that way. Chuck all that. Been off for 5 years after Uni working as a taxi driver? Chuck. Have a silly name? Instant interview...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Jonny_S
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 12:38
Quote: "Or even better try to do a co-op position for paid We do that at work---- the student comes in and works his butt off and gets paid (not nearly as much as "real" programmers, but good for paying his next semester's tuition). It counts toward a class in most Uni's, so I would definitely recommend that. I personally know a few of those who have returned to work with us full time after finishing their degree. Highly recommended. I see no drawback at all."

Thats what they do at my uni (although it is compulsory), and if you get on well in that year they often offer you a job for when you've finished your degree which is excellent imo.
The first year of uni is a pile of crap wherever you go, you'll find if you know alot about computers you'll know it all already, but remember a CS degree isn't all programming. In my first year I learnt some hardware stuff and this year I'm learning alot about software design which I thinks really beneficial (the programming is still a walk in the park though ). Infact I hated last year so much I was close to changing courses, however I think I've picked the right modules this year (in terms of what I want to do when I leave) and its certainly improved.
imo you should go to the uni you feel most comfortable at, get some work experience if they offer it and try and do a broader range of modules than just game dev, as jeku said a standard CS degree is probably better than a games specific degree.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 13:38
Most programming courses aren't geared up for people who already know programming, but don't get too cocky. I flew through the programming modules in Uni, but there's a lot of other stuff that's covered that's not as intuitive, and will need work, it's easy to think you know everything, but you might be in for a surprise too.

Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 13:59 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 14:10
Read the interview with VALVE in this months EDGE magazine - you don't have to go to college to get a job in gaming. Its just more acceptable to the people around you (eg: parents, teachers).

Getting into games is really about TALENT and being able to work effectively with other people - being a teamplayer. (And be able to knuckle down and take orders - whether you agree or not.)

Arrogance is overated is usually a sign of insecurity rather than confidence.

You will NEVER know it all.

EDGE also has articles about colleges and adverts for jobs/college courses every month.

From my experience you learn very little that is genuinely useful in the workplace at college anyway - which is why job ads use the word "EXPERIENCE".

Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 14:08 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 14:10
Quote: "Its just more acceptable to the people around you"
Not in my experience (people can be ex-fridge salesmen and fellow programmers are happy as long as they are good).

Overall it's a seriously easy way to filter a tonne of CV's without expending hardly any money or effort. If they have a BSC Comp Sci degree then you are much more likely not to get a dud. Not totally definite of course (I've had a couple of right spanners), but then thats where the 2nd phase comes in (IQ type tests to pass otherwise no interview).

At the end of the day when the company is getting thousands of pounds a day from you for programming/design/etc etc then they want to minimise the amount of wasted interviewing/training you have to do and maximise the amount of useful programmers who come out the other end after 3 months and can actually, maybe, come close to also getting in thousands of pounds a day. Eventually...

Quote: "you learn very little that is genuinely useful in the workplace at college anyway"
Very true. Especially if you were quite adept originally. I pretty much didn't turn up for 2 years, still got a degree, and went on to run a development team with close to 30 developers and 30 technical support programmers when we were at our strongest. College didn't hardly help at all, except to get me in the door. Oh, and the social side of things helps you become the person you need to be to succeed. Plus living on your own helps give you a lot of those nice life lessons that really help.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Redmotion
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 14:16
Quote: "people around you"


Well, I kind of mean't teachers and parents. I think Modding is a much better way to gain USEFUL knowledge and experience for game based employment, but what parent in their right mind is going to let you tinker in your bedroom for two years with no piece of paper at the end to say you did something!

Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 14:20
Quote: "Well, I kind of mean't teachers and parents"
Ah, right. Good point. Although in hindsight there isn't anything better to do. Absolutely great time. Stuff lectures mind...

Quote: "I think Modding is a much better way to gain USEFUL knowledge and experience for game based employment"
I personally think it's the best way for any programming. But I'm talking about getting in the door. Different kettle of fish really. It's not impossible without a degree, just makes it easier. If you are complete genius or really lucky then scrap all that. Infact do your own company. But for the vast majority of us, even the ones who are really excellent, then best get a degree first. Luckily it's a hell of a blast and really easy to pass Of course if I would have had the same debt as people do now then I may have reconsidered....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Jonny_S
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 17:47 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 17:50
Quote: "Most programming courses aren't geared up for people who already know programming, but don't get too cocky. I flew through the programming modules in Uni, but there's a lot of other stuff that's covered that's not as intuitive, and will need work, it's easy to think you know everything, but you might be in for a surprise too."

That was the point I was trying to make. What I find worrying is I don't consider myself to be a great coder, yet next year I'll be trying to find a job programming...that scares me. Thats why I said go to a good uni . Saying that I'm still firm in the belief that you learn alot more by doing rather than studying, currently I seem to lack the doing part .

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 18:59
Although sometimes people with degrees will be more suited to a job, they are often just good at tests and remembering things. Whether they can use them or have any talent at all is a totally different matter.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 19:10 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 19:10
Quote: "Whether they can use them or have any talent at all is a totally different matter"
My old manager is the best programmer I have ever met. He never went to Uni but started in the punch card department (programmers give you boxes of cards to load).

On the other hand he is also the same person who insisted on BSc Comp Sci degrees for a CV to be considered and IQ tests with 95% pass rate required before an interview.

The basic idea is that while you may still employ some lemons to what you want to do, and you may miss some real diamond programmers (perhaps better than anyone you will ever meet), the overall ratio of decent enough programmers for what you require is much higher when this idea is followed. Our ratio went through the roof when we did this (plus a 3 month test). Lucky I got in when they employed people they like (although I do have a BSc Comp Sci degree) as I suck at tests. No patience.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
BiggAdd
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 19:36 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2007 19:43
I was thinking about this last year also. I decided to do Engineering. Then after i graduate, i could either continue with the Engineering side or go into programming etc. But i don't know yet.

Try and stay away from the "Woolly" courses. Like media studies, advanced wall painting studies or football studies. Aim for decent degrees, like Computer science, Engineering, medicine, dentistry, law... etc. At least then with that degree behind your belt,if you dont make it into the computer business, pretty much any employer will want you because you have proven your intelligence by doing a hard degree.

It also depends what uni you go to. Make sure its a Red Brick and not a polytech. Places like :
Manchester, Liverpool, Cambridge, Oxford, Durham etc.

Sig removed by BiggAdd because he is everywhere.
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 19:44
Media studies are useless no matter where you are or what you want to do.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
mjuricek
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 20:48
you could easily sing up for computer science degree and try some online courses in game development (westwood college i think offers some).
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2007 23:40
Quote: "From my experience you learn very little that is genuinely useful in the workplace at college anyway - which is why job ads use the word "EXPERIENCE"."


Okay, from experience here, I have applied at a LOT of game companies. Not a single one of them asked for experience and not a degree. I think a lot of you have wide-eyed ambitions to create a killer demo and skip the schooling, landing your dream job at a game company. This is a pipe dream, and is VERY rare.

All of these companies I've ever looked at, and have ever applied for, in these past 3 years have required a degree, with experience as an asset. It's never been the other way around.

GatorHex
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 11:47 Edited at: 4th Oct 2007 11:52
MSc Hons, BSc Hons, MCSE+I and 10 years + experience. Even I struggle to find a job, currently looking

Everyone and his dog want a job in computing these days and it wasn't just plumbers who came over from new Europe they have many decent scientists and hackers too Very competitive these days.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Dazzag
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 13:36
Yep, it's not the best time for programmers. Every bloke and his dog seemed to be qualified these days.

Wouldn't be too surprised if the job advice people back in school are advising to get into plumbing and the like now. Learn the skills when you are really young, do your own business, be loaded pretty sharpish. Thats what my idiot mates did after school. Ho-hum...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 15:05
If you're look at universities, don't ever just apply for one, it's a foolish thing to do. Try for 6 of different entry requirements, so if all goes down the whole with the 'top notch unis' you still have a backup route (assuming you're not pants).

One I'd probably add to consider is my own university - yes I would wouldn't I . The University of Derby seems to have some pretty modern facilities and seems pretty damn decent for their Art, Design, Humanities and Technology departments.

One of my flatmates is doing Game Programming as his course, he seems to enjoy it and from what he says it all sounds pretty decent, I also spoke to Baggers yesterday who is also studying Game Programming here, he seems to enjoy it too. Tutors all round seem to be very supportive, which is something you need, as are the university facilities. The course seems to start you off with C# with console programming, and move towards C++ for something more in depth.

The library is fairly large with plenty of computers, the atrium has a free wireless network and the student halls get a free broadband connection too, also everything is accessible in the city within walking distance, I get to uni withing 25 minutes, to town with 10 and a Sainsburys is a short walk away. The town has a lot of clubs, not just chavvy ones, the styles of music vary place to place, indi, hip hop, dance, emo, rock, alternative, metal, punk, ska...and so on. The university student union has plenty of clubs and societies, including a Computer and Gaming one where people are using XNA to program a game.

Of course a note on the halls, you're guaranteed a place in them and they are fairly decent, I already mentioned the free internet connection, you can either have en-suite or standard, you get a wash basin and mirror to tart your self up in your room, the rooms are a decent size and you can even apply to have quiet or not so quiet accomodation (Though you may not always find the quiet is quiet).

Plus there always seems something going on - so make sure to check these things out, I mean a degree doesn't get you a job in the industry, it's what you've got to show to the employers and you'll need a university or/and city that offers ways of doing practical things, for example one of our societies is a radio station run through the internet world wide and I've joined it, something like that will impress employers. So really education isn't everything, it just gets your foot in the door, it's what you can do, your experience and what you've got to show for it.

That's just something to consider, even if you don't pick Derby, hope that gives you something more to look at when looking for universities.

Also, don't let distance from home scare you, a train journey is never ridiculously long in the UK...unless it really IS that far, if you must aim as low as the midlands.

One last thing, programming and the computing industry seems to be very competitive, so when you're at uni, make it your number 1 hobby, make it your biggest requirement, make sure you do things all and around the subject outside of class that can offer you recognition - when coming out, this can really stick out against competitors who have only a qualification.

I shot the sheriff
Dazzag
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Posted: 4th Oct 2007 16:37
Quote: "don't let distance from home scare you"
Heh, I didn't phone home or allow myself to be contactable (was 1991) for just over 3 months when I first went to Uni. Ah, the good old days

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."

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