Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / Games and Money

Author
Message
aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 05:31
I have a question. If I wanted to sell a game how would I make it so that the user got the game after they bought it and that No on can steal it?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 06:10
You don't.


Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 06:34
There are a number of different ways to do it.

Your best bet is to have people buy the product, and once you've received the money, you email them a password and username for a hidden section of your website.

You're going to have to be at least moderately knowledgeable in web programming before you attempt it, otherwise, see if you can get a CMS out there that does it all already for you

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 07:46
thanx Jess T.

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 07:58
Here's how you do it:

Make the game really sh*tty on purpose, so now one really bothers cracking it. That should do the trick.

Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 08:12
What I meant by my response is that there are almost always ways around it .


tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 09:16
When something is human-made, a human can desengineer it. End of story.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 10:32
Quote: "When something is human-made, a human can desengineer it. End of story."


fairly sure the words you were looking for were "reverse-engineer"
still it's true, you can't 100% protect from hackers

what you can do is create a system that makes it more difficult than is worth to crack.

it might sound odd, but Halo 2 for Vista took 2weeks to crack; where-as Peggles took under a day. the fact is the more popular your game the more likely someone will figure out a way to pirate.

So far Valve have one of the best anti-piracy systems.
Not because it's uncrackable, but actually more because it can detect when someone has cracked it; and then ban that user.

The downside of their system is you *must* be online to play their games, even if they're offline games. Or atleast the ones they care about preventing piracy (ie Half-Life 2)

How they do it is the game is stored in an Encrypted folder/file, which the free parts (the bits that are available for demos or just the main cacheable section) are fairly unprotected. That important parts, that change it into a full-game are protected via a user-end hashkey and a server-end hashkey.

The user-end one is linked to your hardware, meaning you can't simply copy the files across without having the exact same hardware. Preventing a simple copy once unlocked, the server-end one prevents Steam from running the game if the user-end and server-end keys are damaged or missing.

It's fairly simple, but quite difficult to break without a real-time cracker.. if such a thing is detected then that users account is terminated immediately pending an investigation as to why.

A system I've been personally tinkering with on/off for a year or so, is one where the files are stored in a hidden hard disk partition that is expanded as and when it is needed to. The protection system runs from this hidden partition, and is hardware based protection thanks to AES. Can't say that I've got that particular system working well, as XP/2000 tends to corrupt the primary partition with it; but it works nicely under most Linux and Vista variations.

The simplist system that really would be enough for most independant games, that I'd go with would be similar to Steams. Only rather than online; just check against the hardware once the online unlock has been verified. It's fairly simple to get the serial number of hard-disks and processors, I believe Extends actually allows you to do that too. Throw in the authentication key and MD5 hash.. safe enough to deter most unless it gets extremely popular.

Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 20:41
I don't think Valve has the greatest anti-hack system...I think they simply made people realize that if you're gonna play something very good online on a regular basis, you might as well just fork over the money for it. Same goes for other online games. Not really worth it coming up with a new work-around every time and risk being banned.

aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 20:50
Ok. Now how do I copyright it so it is illegal to redistribute?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
hessiess
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2007
Location: pc!
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 21:17
Quote: "A system I've been personally tinkering with on/off for a year or so, is one where the files are stored in a hidden hard disk partition that is expanded as and when it is needed to. The protection system runs from this hidden partition, and is hardware based protection thanks to AES. Can't say that I've got that particular system working well, as XP/2000 tends to corrupt the primary partition with it; but it works nicely under most Linux and Vista variations."


its quite easy to find every partition on the disk, Werther its hidden or not

learn blender, you will never regret it.

Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 7th Oct 2007 21:32 Edited at: 8th Oct 2007 05:32
Quote: "Ok. Now how do I copyright it so it is illegal to redistribute?"

I don't think that has anything to do with copyright, more like the terms of use. Copyright is automatic whenever you create anything, it's automatically copyrighted (at least in the US).


CattleRustler
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Aug 2003
Location: case modding at overclock.net
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 00:36
Quote: "it's automatically coprighted by (at least in the US)."

thats true to an extent, but if you want to actually prosecute anyone for any infringements, be sure you have actually filed a Copyright with the gov.

My DBP plugins page is now hosted [href]here[/href]
Xenocythe
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th May 2005
Location: You Essay.
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 05:30
No, make it a great game, but make it about $10

Thats how Starcraft is.

But see, they associate one serial key especially for each purpose.

NO ONE has cracked starcraft broodwar, that I know of.

But its so cheap they decide to buy it anyways.

Meh. Signatures. Lame :p
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 05:58
Quote: "NO ONE has cracked starcraft broodwar, that I know of."

I got it cracked, then loved it so much that I bought it. That's about my policy. Get it, like it, buy it. Get it, don't like it, drop it. I actually buy games I've completed, yeah. Odd, isn't it?


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Raven
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 08:32
Quote: "its quite easy to find every partition on the disk, Werther its hidden or not"


You can see it there, but accessing is a very different matter.
NFS is very good for secure data in private.

Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 10:28
Quote: "NO ONE has cracked starcraft broodwar, that I know of."


Considering that it doesn't even come with a CD Key I can imagine it's as simple as making a copy.
Which is possible, as I have made a copy of mine.

Nintendo DS & Dominos :: DS Dominos
http://jt0.org
Jeku
Moderator
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 10:34
Quote: "That's about my policy. Get it, like it, buy it. Get it, don't like it, drop it."


It's still illegal, so don't gloat about that too much on this forum

Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 11:22
With DBPro it's actually quite tricky to reverse engineer, but really people will look for the machine code that shuts down the program and change it so the program bypasses that section or even change the section itself, the nature of DBPro executables makes this difficult for crackers to find and change safely. If you had multiple checks in the program (say every time you load a level), then it would make it fairly difficult to crack.

Using non-standard encryption for your serial keys is an idea as well, there's a lot to be said for not knowing the ins and outs of this stuff, makes things like key generators much harder to make. Then if you keep an eye on the crackers and find out what keys they use and ban them, you can whittle down the chances or at least waste so much of the crackers time that they get sick of it. It can depend on how vigilant you are with updates really, make it a pain to have a cracked copy.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
Dazzag
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Cyprus
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 11:49
Another option is to make some aspect of it online requiring the user to setup an account that (even automatically) logs in when the game runs. Can be high scores, a way to view extra levels, a multiplayer game, anything really. Anyways, when someone logs in with the same account that is currently online then logoff (and kick them out of the game) the old login. Doesn't stop piracy, but if they play the game enough then is enough to annoy the hell out of the original purchaser. Of course if you only play the game in the daytime a person in the UK could share your login with an australian to play while they are asleep, but league tables and competiveness will hopefully keep them to their own accounts. If the game is good enough obviously. You could even let them play without a connection, but nicely make it so they miss out on a load of cool stuff from being connected.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Keo C
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 17:30
Quote: "I got it cracked, then loved it so much that I bought it. That's about my policy. Get it, like it, buy it. Get it, don't like it, drop it. I actually buy games I've completed, yeah. Odd, isn't it?"
This is why companies release demos.

Uhhhhhhh.... I forgot
aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 17:34
so wait... How do I make it so it is illegal to redistribute?

Next question in queue: How do other people here do it?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 19:08
Quote: "so wait... How do I make it so it is illegal to redistribute? "

Quote: "This game is not for redistribution. WARNING: This game is protected by international copyright laws."




Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 19:27 Edited at: 8th Oct 2007 19:28
Quote: "It's still illegal, so don't gloat about that too much on this forum "


Kind of like jacking a car and then sending payment to the original owner once you discover the new ride gets you babes.

aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 19:28
Quote: "Quote: "This game is not for redistribution. WARNING: This game is protected by international copyright laws.""


So wait... Do I just put it there?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 19:29
Erm... Unless you live outside of the konwn solar system,* yes.


*Note- If you do live outside the known solar system, international copyright law is not applicable.



aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 19:44
what do I do if I do live out of the known solar system?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
bitJericho
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 20:39
Quote: "Kind of like jacking a car and then sending payment to the original owner once you discover the new ride gets you babes. "


That would be so awesome though


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 20:56
Kind of, yes, but honestly, I don't think that analogy goes here. I like to see it as a testride - and hey, at least I buy the good games... I love the game industry, so I'll pay for what is worth it. That's the problem with games, no refunds or switching here after 24 hours after purchase here in the Netherlands. I usually play demo's too, but I've been tricked too many times with a fun, dynamic demo and a boring, been-there-done-that game.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 22:17
Quote: "what do I do if I do live out of the known solar system?"

I beleive all laws out there involve carrots so... eat a carrot. Everyone ill know what you mean.
.....................................



Jeff032
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Aug 2007
Location:
Posted: 8th Oct 2007 22:50 Edited at: 8th Oct 2007 22:51
If I understand how copyright works in the US, it seems really dumb in my opinion.

1) If it's tangible, it's copyrighted by you the second you make it.
2) Of course, the fact that it's copyrighted doesn't mean anything unless you send a $45 and a copy (which they get to keep) to the US government, otherwise you can't sue anyone who copies it.

So I wonder...who in the government got first dibs on Halo 3... j/k

Space Game WIP
Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 18:50
Thank goodnes I'm an Engrish fellow.



aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 20:13
I, unfortunately, have anotehr question. Would anyone here actually buy anything if I siad something like 'sned money and then ill give you whatever?' I mean really.

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 20:24
No. You'll need a trusted sales protocol: Paypal, ShareIt... Something like that.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
aluseus GOD
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 19th Mar 2007
Location: I\'m here. Now I\'m there. I keep moving
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 20:40
is it free?

Not even a strait suit, you, caramel, the recycling bin, uber code, and chuck norris combined can keep me safe from me. Mostly cuz I exist.
tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 20:44
I think ShareIt demands a percentage of profit.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Agent Dink
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location:
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 20:49
Paypal takes a percentage as well, but it's not very much really. They take roughly $5 for every $150 transferred to you.

Insert Name Here
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2007
Location: Worcester, England
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 22:49
Ohh, not bad.



Dr Manette
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 17th Jan 2006
Location: BioFox Games hq
Posted: 9th Oct 2007 23:26
Starcraft has been cracked, believe me, I've seen the cracks.

@tha_rami,
I thought you had more moral fiber =/

@aluseus GOD,
Using paypal is a good way to go, and trusting an already setup online store works well too. Also, depending on the game, publishing is an option, which cuts back on some of your responsibilities. Unless you know what you're doing, don't try and create your own store.

tha_rami
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 10th Oct 2007 04:57
Moral fiber? Hah. I don't know.

I think the whole question is controversial enough, and anti-AUP not to discuss it here. If you want to continue this one, I dropped you an e-mail.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-19 09:32:44
Your offset time is: 2024-11-19 09:32:44