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Geek Culture / Programming Best of the Best.

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Deathead
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 17:56
Hello! I emailed Rick V about this and he said exactly...
Quote: "Hi,



You are best asking the forum members, this was a community thing that grew. I have no real opinion on it.



Rick


"

So Here it is!

So I'm asking you the forums members if this is a great idea?

-Go onto the forums its nice! Join now!
Lucifer
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 18:12
no


Silly!
Deathead
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 18:14
It would be nice for a explaination.

-Go onto the forums its nice! Join now!
Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:09 Edited at: 11th Oct 2007 19:10
No.

You haven't really explained what the hell you're on about.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
dark coder
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:12
Well assuming this is the same thing as on the FPSC boards I don't see the point. Just seems like a pointless way to show off(cough e-penis). If someone's a good programmer then they will be known so by making good games / demos, what more do you need?

Veron
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:14 Edited at: 11th Oct 2007 19:18
Oooooh, you want a BOTB, like the FPSC one? Except for programming? I suppose it's a good idea, yeah.

EDIT:
Quote: "show off(cough e-penis)"
Now people are going to start posting pictures!


Kentaree
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:20
I agree with DC on this one, who knows who's the best programmer? Probably the members who post the least because they spend more time programming?

Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:33
bad idea, that's not what TCG is about
The forums are about sharing ideas and learning, maybe people would start holding back more if there were awards going around.
What is it worth anyway apart from bragging rights?

You could maybe do it for who has given the most to the community every month or something. I don't like the "BOTB" call it something else.

GatorHex
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:36 Edited at: 11th Oct 2007 19:47
I read it as Bot-B a slight better version of Bot-A

But hey I'm crazy

I was thinking a list of the best / most playable games rather than a programmer award (nothing that requires an Alienware to execute!)

Something average joe public can download and he doesn't end up thinking "this runs slow on my PC, must mean DBP is slow"

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
David R
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:40
Programming is a wide discipline - how on earth would you quantify being the 'best' at it?


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Grandma
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:49
Quote: "Programming is a wide discipline - how on earth would you quantify being the 'best' at it?"


The ones who require the least amount of caffeine to get the job done?

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:51
That's the second coffee joke you've made in the last 20 seconds!
Go get a life!

Grandma
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 19:55
Hehe, i just came back from a great adventure and had to release some insanity on geek culture so it doesn't interfere with my programming.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
Jeku
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 22:06
I have half a mind to write a coffee-themed platformer.

Best programmer? That's incredibly subjective. Best game? A little easier to quantify--- Metacritic is a good example of that. The best games tend to have the highest score.

Who are the judges for your idea?

tha_rami
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 22:19
Who are for the FPSC BOTB?


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Dr Manette
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 22:27
We'd spend too much time/energy arguing over our favorites... really, what's the point? We all know who the "best" programmers are, there's no need to widdle it down to one. And it all comes down to preference, really.

tha_rami
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 22:44
Quote: "We all know who the "best" programmers are,"

Thanks Dr. Manette, never knew you thought I'm so good at programming .


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:01 Edited at: 11th Oct 2007 23:04
No, Sorry RABI he was talking about me. You can obviously tell by the subtle misspelling of whittle (widdle). The d's obviously show he is in support of Agent Dink.

Dr Manette
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:05
.... or I spell badly

Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:05
Oh come now, don't be shy. You know I'm the best.

Zombie 20
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:34


*clears throat*

I'm the worst so now whatcha gonna do hahahah!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:39
It's good for the FPSC community, but the DBP community is different than that, it's really a show off thing, but you could always give them when somebody achieves something, but not a 'best of the best', because that's never true in the programming world, but an award or something. I mean I wouldn't be against that, though I'm happy without one.

I mean, when I started the TGC 3D modelling challenges, the whole point was never to label about being the greatest modeller, but giving people something to work towards and a motive to improve their skills and it works, this programming thing in theory works like that if the idea isn't about being 'the best' but awarding people for a piece of decent work that they deserve recognition for...

but then we already have a system for recognition, there's the link bar at the top and the newsletter, I remember getting psyched when I saw one of my threads in the newsletter.

All I can say, programming isn't a competition. That's what programming compos are for...

I shot the sheriff
BatVink
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:54 Edited at: 11th Oct 2007 23:56
BOTB is not about being the best at everything. It's about having something worth showing that inspires the rest of the community. It could be a nice tech demo, or a full-blown game. It could be good game music and sound effects, or great implementation of AI.

Basically, it would tell newcomers that someone knew what they were talking about, rather than someone opinionated telling everyone they knew what they were talking about and misleading Joe Programmer. And that happens frequently.

For example, some people post bad tutorials, sometimes ones that don't even compile. If someone with a BOTB badge posted a tutorial, you know they have applied their knowledge successfully already.

Inspire
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Posted: 11th Oct 2007 23:57 Edited at: 12th Oct 2007 03:14
EDIT: Didn't see BatVink's post.

Deathead
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 00:10
I agree with Batvink.

-Go onto the forums its nice! Join now!
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 03:14
I created the idea of the BOTB because the FPSC Showcase board was overcome with "look at my cool game" that consisted of dozens of objects that were thrown about the giant room without rhyme or reason. The few gems that were sprouting up here and there were constantly being pushed off the front page; so I wanted a place that was "untouchable" (meaning uncluttered) with which to showcase games and demos that were above-par and really showed what FPSC was capable of.

It had been mentioned that if it went well with the FPSC crowd (which it seems to have done), then it might move into the DB crowd. That would be up to someone else, I imagine.

The BOTB was never meant to be for 1 or 2 people only; it was created for a growing membership of above-par FPSC developers....there is no limit on the number of entries. It wasn't meant to create an "elitist award"; it was created to recognize and encourage FPSC developers to push the envelope with the software...and to show others that you can build an enjoyable experience with it.

As far as criteria goes; there is no set-in-stone way of getting accepted. I encourage candidates to look at previous entries to see what I'm looking for. If I don't think your game/demo is up to snuff; I'll try to tell you where you can improve, and ask you to re-submit later. I also look for games that use FPSC in a "non run&gun" manner; such as Umbra. I draw a great amount of input from comments on the developer's threads as well; sometimes I chime in myself.

Since the badges have come out, I've seen a number of people wanting to be recognized. The first thing I hear them say is not "I'm going to start submitting levels until I get something accepted"; but more along the lines of "I really need to improve my game design before I try to submit".

Having said all that; I agree with most here in that I don't think a Programmer BOTB is possible, at least not in the manner that I have run the FPSC version. I think it would be entirely possible to have a DB BOTB; only there would probably need to be a little more laid out as far as criteria, and one of the DB Mods would be better off running that one (as I have little experience with the language as of yet).

Of course, it's entirely up to the developers here; which is why this thread (and the resulting discussion) is a good idea.

-Keith

Phaelax
DBPro Master
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 03:23
I have a better suggestion, how about we grant a special award(like a forum badge) to the member deemed most valuable/helpful. We could have everyone email their top 5 choices, at which the top 10 most elected would be presented for a final poll. I could probably make something to auto count the names in the emails to build the final poll list.


KeithC
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 04:00
Wouldn't that just turn into a popularity contest?

Inspire
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 04:04
Exactly.

jasonhtml
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 06:13
instead of making this a contest, wouldn't it be easier/more fair for the mods to just select a few games in the WIP and Program Announcements and give the post a special "badge?" (it would be like a sticky, except a different symbol). Geisha House would be a good example of one of few games that would deserve this badge. and for a post to receive it, it would have to be absolutely clear to the mods that the game deserves it.

this would also help with the problem that is often discussed: how to keep bad WIP posts from crowding the top of the WIP board? well, with this, basically all great games have a "reserved" top of the board.

what do you guys think?

tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 06:24 Edited at: 12th Oct 2007 06:25
Me slaps jasonhtml. Stupid idea.

I have a good idea, though:
nstead of making this a contest, wouldn't it be easier/more fair for the mods to just select a few games in the WIP and Program Announcements and give the post a special "badge?" (it would be like a sticky, except a different symbol). Geisha House would be a good example of one of few games that would deserve this badge. and for a post to receive it, it would have to be absolutely clear to the mods that the game deserves it.

this would also help with the problem that is often discussed: how to keep bad WIP posts from crowding the top of the WIP board? well, with this, basically all great games have a "reserved" top of the board.

(yes, this means I like your idea)

BTW: The BOTB thing could be used for jasonht... uhm... my idea.


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Dr Manette
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 07:10
Yea, I like that idea a lot better. There are quite a few threads we deem sticky worthy, and a special "badge" will make all those great wips stand right out.

That idea sounds better, imo cause we're awarding the person for a specific achievement and not for being overall great. A set of "requirements" will be needed, though. Otherwise, bias of one genre over the other might create problems.

Jeku
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 09:36
I don't think this is a good idea for a programming forum. I wouldn't doubt if some of the best programmers never post in this forum, for one thing

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 12:17
Indeed,I mean KeithC has given good reason as to why the FPSC forum should have it, but I think the programming side already has a decent enough system for recognition - though these ideas are good we already have the bar sitting at the top of the forum, sticky threads, the Newsletter, 20-liner and the Gallery. And I don't think we another drive for work.

But I mean I could be stand corrected, it may make some people work harder on their projects, but I think the majority of our programmers here would rather see their own project finished and looking good than to have a badge saying 'well done'.

I shot the sheriff
tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 12:31
I love shiny badges...


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Van B
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 12:32
What would be pretty cool is if, say on the anniversary of the newsletter, users could vote for categories - like most helpful user, best game, best 3D model etc etc - then they could be listed in the newsletter. Might be fun as even being nominated for something like that would be accolade in itself. The winners could then link to the award graphic in their sig if they wanted. I don't think that would take too much time, could even be based on the old puzzle compo forum code where users cast votes on their favorite games.

We're going down... in a spiral to the ground...
BatVink
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 14:16
But sigs can be abused.

Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 14:27
And people can get egos. I don't think it's a good idea.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Scraggle
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 14:31
I think it is a bad idea. I wouldn't want to display my award because it would be embarrassing to keep on winning it every month



Kentaree
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 14:31 Edited at: 12th Oct 2007 14:32
I agree with Ben. Besides, we all know I'm the best anyway

[Edit]: Damn you Scraggle!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 15:22
Quote: "What would be pretty cool is if, say on the anniversary of the newsletter, users could vote for categories - like most helpful user, best game, best 3D model etc etc - then they could be listed in the newsletter. Might be fun as even being nominated for something like that would be accolade in itself. The winners could then link to the award graphic in their sig if they wanted. I don't think that would take too much time, could even be based on the old puzzle compo forum code where users cast votes on their favorite games."


I suppose something like that would work better, I mean just as extra recognition on the occasion - and to show achievement - but the sig thing could be abused, but I don't see anybody that are taken seriously here that would do that and those that would abuse it would stick out like a saw thumb I think.

Though the community vote does have me skeptic - this in turn could be a popularity contest or people who put in their best efforts may not be as recognised as those with the best skills - say the Nutt and Bear games demonstrate effort and creativity but not necessarily the best programming or game making skills. I wonder if they won't be voted as much as say Illusion of the Tower or Dream - but to be fair people love the Nutt and Bear ones a lot, so I dunno perhaps it would be fair...

I mean I'm happy with anything as long as it celebrates people and doesn't work like a competition for the best of the best. Or as Ben rightly said, for the bigger ego.

The Rabi
KeithC
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Posted: 12th Oct 2007 15:25
I like VanB's idea. They don't have to have a sig; but the annual recognition in the Newsletter is a good idea. The whole point is to encourage development with tools made for the DBPro language (and other's sold through TGC). Some may say that this type of recognition won't make a difference in someone's game development (they were going to develop it with or without special recognition); but I think it is a motivator of sorts.

Like Batvink said earlier; people with this type of Badge/Recognition are looked at a little more favorably by people who are either new, or trying to make a similar type of game. Those developers may have a problem that they see has been solved by a BOTB (or whatever) member.

In fact, it may be a good idea (assuming the developer has the time) for a BOTB developer to write a tutorial or two on a specific aspect of their game that makes it stand out from the rest (such as a special script, custom model/animation, or method of lighting a scene just right, etc.). That could be a nice feature in the Monthly Newsletter (section titled "BOTB Tutorial Corner" or something), either every month or every couple of months.

Quote: "And people can get egos. I don't think it's a good idea.
"

I suppose that's always a possibility; but isn't that a broad assumption? Even when people have egos, they can still impart good advice and/or inspiration for others. I knew a guy at the Lightwave (NewTek) forum that was a great modeler....and had a terrible ego (which subsequently got him banned permanently); but many learned from him, whether they agreed with him or not.

There are two relevent points associated with the BOTB (or it's variation); recognition of individuals who excel, and showing the rest of us that we can achieve our goals in game development.

Sure, some of us thrive off of praise for our work; but there's nothing really wrong with that, is there? Many of the BOTB Developers have posted their work to be scrutinized by others for some time now; they took that advice, good or bad, and completed their vision.

These are good points from everyone here.

-Keith

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