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Geek Culture / Lil' bit of Math help?

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Manic
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 21:20
Ok, I haven't done any maths in years, so i'm not too familiar with it all, and even then i only did it to GCSE level...

so I was wondering if someone could give me a hand understanding what some symbols mean;

what's the function of the n & i over each other in brackets in this equation;



what happens to make the n & i come out as 5 and 10s in the equation when the total of P is 5?



sorry, i'm not being particularly clear here...

I understand the rest of it, but i don't know how that one part works, can anyone clue me in?

Much appreciated!

Manic

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calcyman
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 21:29
I think it looks like the binomial expansion.

To produce the 5 & 10's, look up Pascal's Triangle on Wikipedia. You should find it on the 6th row.

Those tall brackets (which look like vectors) are a function of probability. If you get A above B in the bracket, it means:

A!/(B!*((A-B)!)) [! means factorial]

You can substitute anything in place of A and B

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 21:32
n over the i basically means how many i's it can take... hard to explain really. 5 choose 1 (5 over a 1) = 5, because 1 goes in 5 times. 5 choose 4 is 5 too, because 4 can go into 5 5 different ways.

I think the equation for it is as follows (I might be wrong):

n! / ( n!(n! - i!) )

The ! is a factorial. The factorial of 4 = 4 + 3 + 2 + 1, if you see what I mean. (or is it multiplication?)

I have to catch up a bit

"It's like floating a boat on a liquid that I don't know, but I'm quite happy to drink it if I'm thirsty enough" - Me being a good programmer but sucking at computers
calcyman
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 21:37
Quote: "The factorial of 4 = 4 + 3 + 2 + 1, if you see what I mean. (or is it multiplication?)"


Yes, it is multiplication, (4! is 24)

Quote: "I think the equation for it is as follows (I might be wrong)"


You're not wrong, the formula is correct.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 21:55 Edited at: 13th Nov 2007 22:02
What you have there is a way to calculate probabilities.

t= probability of event occurring (p)
1-t = probability of event not occurring (q)

The Brackets with n over i is pronounced "n choose i". You will find a button on your calculator (if its scientific) looking like nCr.

nCr = n!/(r!*(n-r)!)

n! = 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8 x 9....... x n

B(t) means Function B in terms of t. But B really stands for Binomial, as this function is a Binomial expansion.

(a+b)^n = E(nCr)*(a^(n-r))*b^r

That big E you see in your picture is Called Sigma, it means "Sum of terms". The P's don't play a part in the formula but just are there to tell you which term it shows. so P0 is the First term.

So if P0 then : (n choose 0) * (a^(n-0))*b^0
which equals: a^n.


The way you get the numbers like 5 10 etc, is as said before. It is pascals triangle. Which creates the sequence of numbers, instead of calculating (nCr)

so if I had (a+b)^5, I could say (5C0)*stuff + (5C1)*stuff + (5C2)*stuff + (5C3)*stuff + (5C4)*stuff + (5C5)*stuff

If you calculate it, 5C0=1 5C1=5 5C2=10 5C3=10 5C4=5 5C5=1

But you can bypass calculating these numbers individually by creating a pascals triangle. You do this by starting with 1 (when n=0) and start a new row (n=1) add the term above the term you're calculating to the number before the number above the number you're calculating (Hang on what?) I'll try to demonstrate

n|
0| 1 <n=0 only one term of 1
1| 1 1 <n=1 first number (0+1=1) second number (1+0=1)
2| 1 2 1 <n=2 second number (1+1=2) etc...
3| 1 3 3 1
4| 1 4 6 4 1
5| 1 5 10 10 5 1 < As you can see this is the same sequence when you calculate 5C0, 5C1, 5C2, 5C3, 5C4, 5C5

Hope this helps and i haven't over complicated things.

Oh and tE[0,1] means t can only lie between 0 and 1 (But that is only for the probability binomial expansion)
In:
(a+b)^n = E(nCr)*(a^(n-r))*b^r

a and b can be any number.
Damn! wasn't quick enough.


Its finally here!
BiggAdd
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 22:10 Edited at: 13th Nov 2007 22:10
I'll explain what nCr means.

Say I have 3 cards A B C, and I want to figure out how many different arrangements I can make out of 2 of the cards:

AB BA
CB BC
AC CA

Now that is 6. But using 3C2, it doesn't matter about the order.
So AB is the same as BA. So there are 3 arrangements if order does not matter

so 3C2 = 3.

You can therefore calculate large numbers. Eg I have 30 football players, how many teams of 11 can i make if order does not matter?

so: 30C11 = 54627300

But if the order of the players matters, you can use a function called nPr (n pick r)

so 30P11 = 2.18 x 10^15.

Hope this helps.


Its finally here!
Manic
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Posted: 13th Nov 2007 22:13
cheers for the info guys, i'm gonna try and digest it and give it a go...

Having said that, i'll probably be back for more help!

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Osiris
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 00:21
The answer is....use a calculator!

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 00:34
Quote: "B(t) means Function B in terms of t. But B really stands for Binomial, as this function is a Binomial expansion.
"


Seems unlikely to me. I think we need to know what P0, P1, etc, are supposed to represent. Where did that formula come from? If they are all unity then B(t) is in fact 1 for all values of t since in that case you do have a binomial expansion, i.e. of [(1-t)+t]^n which is just [1-t+t]^n = 1^n = 1. You can only have a non-trivial function of t if the P's are NOT all equal.

I agree with what everyone's said about "n choose i", factorials, etc, though.
Manic
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 12:35
sorry, i guess I should have said what it was!

that equation is for the calculation of bezier curves, where each P is a control point for the curve.

B(t) is the resulting coordinate for that part of the curve.


I (think) I had an epiphany of understanding last night with regards to this, but it was too late to start on it, so I went to bed instead.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 14:07
Quote: "Seems unlikely to me. I think we need to know what P0, P1, etc, are supposed to represent. Where did that formula come from? If they are all unity then B(t) is in fact 1 for all values of t since in that case you do have a binomial expansion, i.e. of [(1-t)+t]^n which is just [1-t+t]^n = 1^n = 1. You can only have a non-trivial function of t if the P's are NOT all equal.
"

Well if it is an equation for bezier curves, it is exactly like the Binomial Probability.

The P's are most probably not part of the formula, just there to denote what term that segment is, Or the point it is.

Glad you figured it out in the end manic.


Its finally here!
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 18:19
Quote: "that equation is for the calculation of bezier curves, where each P is a control point for the curve.

B(t) is the resulting coordinate for that part of the curve.
"


Thanks. That makes perfect sense - and should be helpful to a lot of people (including me).

The simple Bezier curve uses n=3 so, if t=0 you get P0 (i.e. the first endpoint), if t=1 you get the final endpoint P3. The other two are the control points you can use to distort the line.

The other terms in your formula can be interpreted as "binomial probabilities" as BigAdd says - but are only used as convenient "weights" in this case (i.e. "weights" which add to 1 so you get a "weighted" average of the points P0 to Pn).

I'll definitely make a mental note of that formula ...
Osiris
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Posted: 14th Nov 2007 18:49
http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=google+calculator&btnG=Google+Search



RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.

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