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Geek Culture / All numbers are equal

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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:07 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 10:10
or are they?



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dark coder
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:11
It's good to see even moderators are posting useless threads now.

BatVink
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:11 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 10:12
I think you posted before I put the image in place. This is as geeky as it gets, somebody will have the answer but at a glance it looks legitimate.

Benjamin
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:12 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 10:24
I second dark coder's comment.

Quote: "
Mod: 1+5 = 8!!
Mod: Holy crap!
Mod: New thread!!
"


Having said that, the answer is quite simple:

a = inf * (1^5) / 0 + 19.3
b = 1 * (3-2) / (4/(2*2))

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dark coder
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:21
Well now that I read it through it does make sense.

Zombie 20
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 10:40
oooo math

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 11:26
Can you really factorise the right side like that? That's where the "magic" happens.

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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 11:34 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 11:44
The factorising step is accurate in the way it has been evaluated.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:02
But the first cancellation step is nonsense of course.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:02
That's the kind of math I use when I balance my checkbook. My wife loves it and trusts me


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5Louiz
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:04 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 13:10
Useless thread? This is, actually, very interesting.

This happens because we do not specify the value of a and b, so they are null.

We can not say that a = 1, b = 2, and that a = b. But a (null number) = b (null number).

Following this logic and distorting the maths, somehow, I guess we could reach something like:

a*b³ = a

But this is very interesting anyway.


Cheers.

BatVink
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:09
I am no maths wizard, but I am reliably informed that the method of cancelling the (b-a) on each side is perfectly valid.

5Louiz
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:10 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 13:11
Posted at the same time ^^

Edit:
Quote: "But the first cancellation step is nonsense of course."


I think not:

a*(b-a) = (b-a)*(b+a)

a = ((b-a)*(b+a))/(b-a)

(b-a) at the numerator and (b-a) at the denominators are equal binomial expressions. So they can be cancelled.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:23
The cancellation step looks like where the drama begins, but it looks valid to me. I mean, if you divide both sides by (b-a) then it's right, isn't it?

If a=1 and b=1 then this is true enough


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:25
BatVink:
Man, long time since I did any equations but I checked and yes, that factoring is ok

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5Louiz
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 13:34 Edited at: 16th Nov 2007 13:36
:: ignore this ::

IanM
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 14:11
The first cancel is where the problem is - if a=b then (b-a) is zero, dividing by zero is not allowed.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 14:44
!!! That makes perfect sense IanM. That's exactly what's wrong.


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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 15:23
That's the one. I have to confess, I didn't spot it when the problem was given to me.

ionstream
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 15:49
Also I think theres a problem when you multiply each side by b, raising the power of the polynomial and increasing the number of solutions, then when you cancel (b-a) you eliminate the legitimate solution. Bleh math .

That's not as bad as you think you said.
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 17:20
Quote: ""Wait, what's going on?""

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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 18:54
IanM:
I was thinking about divide by zero, but not on that line. Congratulations, you win a cookie!

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 20:15
[Head Explodes]


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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 20:21
Quote: "[Head Explodes]
"
Neat a piece of head.


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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 20:23
Ah, no sorry, that wasn't my head.
Maths is hard.


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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 20:23
Then what did I pick up............


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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 20:24
Well...


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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 21:15
This is what i missed when i went out for a smoke during class???

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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 21:19
Quote: "Then what did I pick up............"


Just.. wow...


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 21:27
ab = b^2

is the same as a^2 = b^2
is the same as b^2 = b^2
etc etc etc.. Just thought that might have significance

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Corky
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 21:36
A kid figured this out in my school once, it took him like 10 trys to figure it out, he is a total math wizz. I myself am not that good at math.

IanM
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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 21:42
Divisions are always the first thing to look for when you see one of these proofs (or square roots, but that's the same thing).

Now, what's this I've just stepped on INH? Whatever it is, it's rather small ...

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Posted: 16th Nov 2007 22:40
I was talking about my cat, Actually.


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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 00:36 Edited at: 17th Nov 2007 00:37
Quote: "I was talking about my cat, Actually."
I knew it was too furry to be a......goldfish.


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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 01:42
Here's another proof that all numbers are equal, the logic slip is quite hard to spot...

- Imagine a set of numbers x1, x2, x3, ... xN, ie. a set of n different numbers, let's assume that they are all equal, as in, any set of size n has all the numbers equal, so x1 = x2 = ... = xN

- Now consider a set one bigger than that (size n+1) - x1, x2, x3, ... xN, xN + 1, we can split this into two sets of size n: x1, x2, ... xN - and - x2, x3, ... xN + 1, so we have, x1 = x2 = ... = xN and x2 = x3 = ... = xN + 1, which means that x1 = x2 = x3 = ... = xN = xN + 1.

- ie, if it is true for a set of size n, it is true for a set of size n + 1, which means it is true for a set of size n + 2, etc for any sized set.

- Well, clearly it is true for the case of n = 1 (one number is the same size as itself) which means it's true for 2, 3, 4 etc...

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IanM
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 11:36
I don't get that one at all - this one reads to me as if it just plays tricks with language to make a false statement at the end.

Quote: "a set of n different numbers, let's assume that they are all equal"

Different numbers, but they are all equal?

Quote: "Now consider a set one bigger than that... we can split this into two sets of size n"

Ok, so far.

Quote: "if it is true for a set of size n, it is true for a set of size n + 1"

Ok.

Quote: "Well, clearly it is true for the case of n = 1 (one number is the same size as itself) which means it's true for 2, 3, 4 etc..."

Yes, but we're not talking about numbers now, we're talking about sets of size n, and only if those sets contain identical numbers.

Is that the trick? That people 'forget' that they are talking about sets in that last statement and not numbers?

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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 13:09
I'm glad IanM confirmed what I said early in the thread:

Quote: "But the first cancellation step is nonsense of course."


I didn't give the reason because I thought it was obvious: YOU CAN'T DIVIDE BY ZERO.

Nearly all these "proofs" that 1=2 or whatever rely on violating that rule - there are other rules that you can violate as well with similar results.

@Chris K

Where's the logic slip? All you have said is that all numbers in a particular sequence of numbers are equal to each other. Where's the problem with that?

Or are you referring the dodgy use of notation:

Quote: "which means that x1 = x2 = x3 = ... = xN = xN + 1."


which ought to be re-written unambiguously using subscripts or array notation, e.g.:

Quote: "which means that x(1) = x(2) = x(3) = ... = x(N) = x(N + 1)."
Dave J
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 14:10
Quote: "I didn't give the reason because I thought it was obvious: YOU CAN'T DIVIDE BY ZERO."


Sure, sure.


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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 14:17
b-a = 0
ERROR 203: DIVISION BY ZERO.
I had one I never figured out, it was 0 = 1, ill give it if i can remember it.

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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 14:46 Edited at: 17th Nov 2007 14:47
Step 4: dividing by (b-a) is of course division by zero.

but hey, whatever floats your boat!

[edit] heh, obviously i posted without reading the entire thread

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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 15:02 Edited at: 17th Nov 2007 15:04
it's stupid
in the factorizing part you are multiplying a*0 and (a+b)*0
both are 0 but that doesn't mean a = a+b

[edit]
OK so you're saying a=0 and therefore b=0
but it still doesn't work 1a=0 and 2a=0 doesn't mean 1=2
I sound really pissed off don't I haha

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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 15:36 Edited at: 17th Nov 2007 15:38
@ Ian M, Green Gandalf

It's a type of proof called Proof By Induction, if we can prove something for a specific case, and then prove that if it is true for some case, then it is true for the next case, then we have proved it for all cases.

Say, if we managed to prove that if you had ginger hair, then all your children must have ginger hair, and then we found someone with ginger hair, then we would have proved that all his descendents ever will have ginger hair.

I'll start again...

Firstly, imagine any set of size 1, that just contains one number. Clearly every number in any set of size 1 is equal, for any set of numbers, of size one, every member of the set is equal.

Now let's assume that it is true for a set of size n, ie, any set of numbers we choose, as long as there of n of them, every element will be equal in that set.

Now consider a set size n + 1
{ x1, x2, x3, ..., xN, xN + 1 }

We can have two subsets of size n:

{ x1, x2, x3, ..., xN }
{ x2, x3, x4, ..., xN + 1 }

So if every element in a set of size n is equal we have:
x1 = x2 = x3 = x4 = ... = xN
and...
x2 = x3 = x4 = x5 = ... = xN + 1

which means that-
x1 = x2 = x3 = ... = xN = xN + 1

ie. if it is true for a set of size n, it is also true for a set of size n + 1.
We know it is true for n = 1, so it must be true for all n.

ie. A set of any numbers of any size, has all elements equal, or... all numbers are equal.

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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 17:17
@Chris K

Thanks for the clarification - I thought you were adding 1 to xN when you wrote xN + 1 - hence my comment and couldn't work out what you were trying to show.

Induction only works if you can prove that the next case follows from the previous case in EVERY case - but the crucial case N = 2 doesn't follow from the case N = 1 since the subsets don't overlap. In other words your "proof" falls at the first hurdle.
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 18:07
Yep.

The subsets don't intersect.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 18:12
I figured it!

1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
1 + 3 = 4

So, by absolutely subtly incorrect logic you get:

1 = 2
2 = 3
3 = 4

Except the reasoning fails near 42.
40 = 41
41 = OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ
OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ = OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ
OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ = OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ
OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ = OMGT3HAW3S0M3N3ZZ


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 17th Nov 2007 20:20
I think that's a DBP compiler error with numbers to base 42.
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 21:56
Quote: "Imagine a set of numbers x1, x2, x3, ... xN, ie. a set of n different numbers, let's assume that they are all equal, as in, any set of size n has all the numbers equal, so x1 = x2 = ... = xN
"


CASE 1.1:
-----------
Let the set A = {x1, x2, x3 ... xN}
You initally start with the assumption that the set A contains all numbers different.
You then state that the same set A has all numbers equal.
In symbolic logic terms your first assumption can be expressed as
(A) ^ (~A) ... (1)
where ^ is the logical AND operator and ~ is the logical NOT operator
Statement (1) is known as a contradiction.
You cannot extend your proof beyond this first statement because it has a truth value FALSE


If you now start of with the assumption that the set A has all numbers EQUAL, we have
for x1 = x2 = x3 = ... = xN = K where K is a constant
Set A then reduces to A = {K, K, K ... K} where all N elements of the set have the value K ...(2)
Since set theory requires that no two elements in a set can have the same value the set A further reduces to A = {K}
The cardinal number of the set A is 1 - where the cardinal number is the number of elements in the set.
("size of the set" is an improper way to describe the number of elements of a set)


Quote: "Now consider a set one bigger than that (size n+1) - x1, x2, x3, ... xN, xN + 1, we can split this into two sets of size n: x1, x2, ... xN - and - x2, x3, ... xN + 1, so we have, x1 = x2 = ... = xN and x2 = x3 = ... = xN + 1, which means that x1 = x2 = x3 = ... = xN = xN + 1.
"


If you now consider another set B = {x1, x2, x3 ... xN, xN+1}
and obtain subsets B1 = {x1, x2, x3 ... xN} and B2 = {x2, x3, x4 ... xN+1}
using the same logic as in statement (2), we have
B = {K}

i.e. The inductive proof immediately collapses, if you assume that the numbers are all equal because you get the same result for N =1, N=2, ......
viz. the sets B1 and B2 are not subsets of B of cardinal number N , where B has a cardinal number N+1
All three sets B, B1, B2 have a single element K and all therefore have the cardinal number 1
But we know that for a set containing any single element, that element has to be equal to itself.
You have therefore NOT PROVED by Induction that a set of N equal numbers, would result in a set of N+1 equal numbers, but that every number is equal to itself, which is a tautology in any case.
The inductive proof is therefore not valid for the set of EQUAL numbers for all values of N.

CASE 1.2
-------------
If you now abort the set theoretic notation and just state the problem as
If x1 = x2 = ... = xN, then by induction it is true for all N
When you arrive at the statement x1 = x2 = ... xN+1
and further break this into two equations
x1 = x2 = ... xN and x2 = x3 = ... xN+1
it is true then that x1 = x2 = ... xN+1 and the inductive proof is valid for EQUAL numbers for all values of N and not for the SET OF EQUAL numbers for all values of N.
(Note that in this case the proof does not collapse even for N=1 because x1 = x2)




CASE 2:
-----------
If we now start with the assumption that A is a set of N numbers that are DIFFERENT
the inductive proof holds true.
It is also not true in this case that for N = 2 the subsets B1 and B2 do not intersect.
For N = 2, B = {x1, x2, x3}
B1 = {x1, x2} and B2 = {x2, x3}
As you can see B1 and B2 intersect at the element x2
In fact B1 and B2 intersect for all values of N >= 2
For N = 1 we have B = {x1, x2} , B1 = {x1} and B2 = {x2}
But since we originally assumed that x1 and x2 are different numbers, the proof by induction holds for the set of N numbers that are different, because x1 does not have to be equal to x2, and the sets do not therefore have to intersect, since we no longer have to show that x1 = x2
The conclusion is that for any set of N numbers that are different, by induction, any set of N+1 numbers will be DIFFERENT
The inductive proof is valid for the set of DIFFERENT numbers for all values of N.

CASE 3:
-----------
If you however decide to prove by induction the CONTRADICTION that the set of N different numbers that are all equal , would result in a set of N+1 different numbers that are all equal, you would first have to prove that 1 = 2 , for the inital case and then proceed further by induction. This is because CASE1.1 and CASE2 show that the method of proof by induction fails.
This brings us back to having to establish whether the first proof is valid.
viz.
a = b
...
a(b-a) = (b-a)(b+a) ...(3)
...

Note that in equation (3) the bracket term evaluates to 0, since a = b
To cancel the factor (a-b) on both sides of the equation we have to multiply both sides by the multiplicative inverse of (a-b), viz. 1/(a-b)
But since a-b = 0 , we are attempting to multiply both sides of the equation by the multiplicative inverse of 0. This is not possible as 1/0 is undefined. We therefore cannot proceed beyond equation (3)
with the proof.
We therefore cannot prove that 1 = 2, 2 = 3 and so on.
If we cannot prove for the inital case that 1 = 2 , we cannot proceed to prove by induction that the set of N different numbers that are all equal, would be true for the case N+1 also, since the inital case for 1 = 2 has not been established.

CONCLUSION:
---------------------
From CASE1, CASE2 and CASE3 we have not shown anywhere that the set of N DIFFERENT numbers are all EQUAL. How can we then, using proof by induction, extend an argument that isn't true in the first place.
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 00:43 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 00:43
I think the problem is here

1a = 2a
1 = 2 (cancel)

Can you cancel like that?
All I can see here is that a=0

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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 09:59 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 10:16
@Obese87

Yep. That is the main problem.
If you arrive at an equation
1a = 2a where a = 0
Then you can arrive at any other equation
f1*a = f2*a where f1 and f2 are any two functions distinct from each other, where a = 0
This would imply that any math expression is equal to any other math expression. This would be chaotic as I said, because the entire mathematical system as we know of it would collapse.

You are right in that you cannot "cancel" like that, because as I mentioned earlier that 0 does not have a multiplicative inverse.

All this raises a very interesting point.
If anybody was to prove that all numbers are equal, the entire
mathematical system we know of today would collapse, because the basic premise on which it is based, is that no two numbers are equal.
So the question arises. Should anyone in future try to prove that two distinct, different numbers can be equal?
To answer that question, we have to return to kindergarten First
Principles.
The teacher would place two plates A and B on the table and place an apple in each one of them. She would then place one more apple in plate B. Since the number of apples in plate A is not the same as the number of apples in plate B, we arrive at the concept of addition. She would further say that this concept can be represented by the + sign. She would then represent the one apple in plate A, by the number 1. Therefore, since each of the apples in plate B can be represented by the number 1 and we have the addition sign + to represent when we have added one more apple to the existing number of apples, the number of apples in plate B can be representd by another number 1 + 1
This number would then be represented by the symbol 2
Clearly then 1 cannot be equal to 2 because it can be seen that plate A and plate B do not both have the same number of apples.
This leads to the evolution of the number line, by induction, where each number is distinct from any other number.

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