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Geek Culture / Anyone done any development on the DS?

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 11:21
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One of my mates at work has just bought some hardware for DS development and has been setting up an environment. Now he's trying to get me involved so we'll have a little DS dev team. I don't even own a DS and was amazed (shocked!) when he told me it had 4mb of RAM. Back to the old skool in terms of efficient use of memory then!

Anyone else done any DS development? If so, any tips for SDKs or other tools?


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Van B
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 11:44
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This thread should proove invaluable...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=108888&b=20

It's something I've been meaning to research, I'd love to be able to make my own DS games, I only have like 200 ideas!

The hardware you need to get into this is absolutely minimal, like £30 and your away!, although I think most homebrew developers use emulators for testing.


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Jess T
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 13:12
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DS dev'ing is absolutely brilliant!

I'm even doing it for my Honors project

Woot!

I also posted some links here.

There was a thread somewhere where I posted a butt-load of gbadev.org forum links about getting started with DS homebrew, but I can't remember where it is... I think Jeku was asking about it, but then again, I have no idea

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 14:40
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Nice one chaps! Cheers for the links. Good to see other people giving it ago. I should probably start by actually buying a DS and going from there. I hear the music is MOD format? Back to the old skool once more, but that'll suit me for composing just fine.


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Van B
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 15:10
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There's actually a version of soundtracker for the DS, it's well worth checking out, can't remember the name though.


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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 15:24
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That runs on the DS, or makes mods for the DS?


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Van B
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 15:47
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Runs on the DS, was made for a competition but it's a fairly decent tracker - you even get a little piano keyboard on the touch screen. For making music on the go it would be a pretty decent solution, you would just grab the .XM files and convert them on your PC (I'm not sure if it supports MOD as well as XM, but modplug would be able to convert it for you easily). I think it's sensible to limit the complexity of the songs for the DS, so actually using the DS's own little tracker might be the best bet. I'll see if I can find out the name later, it's probably on GBADEV as I think it was an entry in their 2006 compo.


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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 16:34
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I quite look forward to making mods for the DS. I remember the old days of chiptunes and the like, where you had to bash out a tune in 64kb. Back then 300kb XMs were the average, so I'm sure I'll get back into the swing of things. Of course, as usual, that relies on us actually finishing a game to get far enough to actually need music.


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Chris K
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 16:41
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It's awesome, just got my 3D animation system working, so I can make and animate models in Milkshape and load them up on the DS.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Roxas
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 17:38
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Hey glad there is some others too
Altrough i knew already Jess T and Chris K is doing DS dev

I had coded somedays ago "Dual Engine"..
It was basically 3d engine for DS It supported already textured 3d objects (not animated) but lost all the codes in format.. Also i had the airhockey ds what i froze!

Im looking some ideas what to do next.. Not game! I would prefer more like useful app or so..


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Van B
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 17:54
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Icon editor!!!

I'd love a little icon editor for the DS, or a little pixel art package - there's 'colors!', which is a really nice art package if a little short on features, but there's certainly a place for pixel art on the DS.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 18:02
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I'm a bit of a DS homebrewer. I wrote SandScape, which I never completed as the touchscreen suddenly went all odd on me. I changed nothing. Just suddenly began messing up on DS Lites.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Roxas
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 18:28
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Quote: "Icon editor!!!

I'd love a little icon editor for the DS, or a little pixel art package - there's 'colors!', which is a really nice art package if a little short on features, but there's certainly a place for pixel art on the DS."


You know what... IT'S A EXCELLENT IDEA!
I really would try to make icon editor with grids and all
Similar what you see in most games eg. Mario Kart icon painting.. But more flexible (i hope)

I see if i can start making something soon


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Blobby 101
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 20:18
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i'm looking into DS homebrew as well, when i get my DS for xmas. what type of language does the DS use? i know i'm heading for a bit of a culture shock compared to DBPro but how much should i be preparing myself?


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DrewG
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 20:33
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@ Blobby 101

More than likely C and/or C++.

I'm going to play all this purchasing stuff safe by probably buying a Datel Games 'n Music DS card so I don't fudge something up by purchasing the wrong stuff over the internet. I'm interested in DS modding myself. PSP modding was pretty fun, when I did the SNES emulator and stuff like that on it.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 20:41
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The Games 'n' Music does not have an excellent speed or compatibility reputation.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2007 21:17
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I've started porting WordTrix to the DS about 6 months ago but stopped after some of my sprites were garbled on the screen. I was using an easy wrapper built on top of the regular API, and successfully loaded the entire English dictionary into the program and all my art from the PC version. The dictionary was a pain as everything has to be put into C files. You don't just load a text file, etc.

The garbled sprites were in a pattern... i.e. they were not random--- something like every 16th or 32nd sprite, so I probably missed something along the way. I really should pick it up again

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Jess T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 01:14
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Quote: "I hear the music is MOD format?"


Nope, pure 16bit PCM goodness

Infact, the DS doesn't even have a built in MOD player, you'd have to write one yourself (or use one that Van was talking about)

Quote: "It's awesome, just got my 3D animation system working, so I can make and animate models in Milkshape and load them up on the DS."


Nice, I reckon you'd get quite a few downloads if you started advertising that!

Quote: "Icon editor!"


Not a bad idea. The DS is set up perfectly for it, too

Quote: "what type of language does the DS use? i know i'm heading for a bit of a culture shock compared to DBPro but how much should i be preparing myself?"


C/++, but I would not recommend going from DBP to DS programming without any other C/++ experience.

You first have to learn how to do normal C programming, then on top of that, you have to learn how to use the hardware of the DS (not an easy feat in itself either!).
One at a time is your best bet

Quote: "buying a Datel Games 'n Music DS card"


Get an R4, or M3 Simply, they're both better, and neither of which can break your DS.

Quote: "I was using an easy wrapper built on top of the regular API"


PALib?

Quote: "The dictionary was a pain as everything has to be put into C files. You don't just load a text file, etc."


Look into DLDI patching your rom.
It allows you to use libfat (which is now part of devkitpro) to access card memory like a normal FAT device

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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 06:00
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Quote: "I hear the music is MOD format?"


Thanks for the reminder--- the MOD format *is* in fact a feature of PAlib

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 07:41 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 07:43
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I remember way back I was interested in GBA dev, but shortly quit after I realized it was way over any kind of skill level I have the potential to reach.

Respect for folk who can do DS dev though. That's too much thinking for me.

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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 09:20
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Quote: "Nope, pure 16bit PCM goodness"


But there is no ram on this thing? I could fill 4mbs of ram by recording me sneeze. Does it not even use compressed audio formats?

Well, so long as Jeku is right on the mod support from PAlib, that's ok. Otherwise music would have to be 10 seconds long, looping round and round till everyone went insane.


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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 10:30
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Hehe, I remember fitting 20-odd .MOD songs on a floppy disk, maybe you just need to stylize any music you make for it - like using retro samples that can be 8-bit. Personally I wouldn't mind if my DS sounded like a C64, some of my favourite game music came from old Sid - add in that D+B style and I'm sure you'll produce something cool yet tiny. Even the music from Manic Miner on a speccy emulator sounds cool on the DS, dunno why but that style seems to suit it's tiny little speakers.


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Jess T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 11:59 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 12:01
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Quote: "Respect for folk who can do DS dev though."


Cheers!


Fallout,

That's why you have to be clever and buffer your sound for streaming.
If you set up a buffer that you fill with a selection of the sound, then once it passes half way, fill the first half with some more sound, then once it's looped back to the start, fill the second half, and so-on till the sound is finished, then you'll be able to play a sound as long as you want.

You can implement libraries like Tremor (for playing .ogg files), which will do it automatically for you. You simply give it the file-pointer, tell it a buffer size to use, and it will read, decode, buffer, and return a pointer for you to play.
You then just tell the DS to loop on that pointer (giving it the length of the buffer, of course)

[EDIT]
You can, of course, select the frequency, bit rate, and stereo-ness of your audio.
So if you had an 8-bit, mono, low-frequency sound, it would take up barely any memory
Remember that the DS speakers aren't top-notch, so you can get away with a certain amount of bad-quality, but it is definitely still noticeable at 8-bit

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 13:14
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Jess T,

What's the frame buffer format in the DS/GBA ?


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Roxas
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 15:05
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DS Can do defianetly more like 8-bit.. Infact if you have played the most famous music games then you know what i mean
(eg. What a wonderful world and Elite beat agents )

Also if you need composing software try nitrotracker! Its awesome


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Fallout
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 18:34
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@Jess T

Yeah, I see exactly what you're saying. Good point. Never had to think like that before with the RAM availability on the PC. I guess half the fun is going to be thinking of efficient methods of using the resources.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 18:58
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Although the magic 4mb can be annoying, if you use it properly you can get 2-4 minutes of audio out of it. Mono 8-bit at 16384Hz sounds alright.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Jess T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 20:36
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Kevin,

It's 16bpp - 1:5:5:5 in A:R:G:B format, but the alpha bit is ignored.
I don't think it's possible to use pallatted colours in Frame Buffer mode, but you can in most any other mode.

Check this out for more info.

Quote: "I guess half the fun is going to be thinking of efficient methods of using the resources."


That's most of the fun!
When I first started, I had no idea how to use the hardware at all, let alone efficiently, now I have to swap out Object Attribute Memory in horizontal blanks, blit to rotated backgrounds, stream audio... It's all the fun

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DrewG
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 21:20
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Jess,

Is this a legit website for purchasing an R4 device from?
http://www.echostore.com/r4ds.html

That seems to be the cheapest R4 I can find, but I've never heard of any of these sites that carry the R4, so I'm not sure if any of them are scam websites or not. Where did you buy yours from, and was it an M3 or R4?

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 21:29 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2007 21:31
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Well, while the missing Yahoo! rating is a little concerning, it does have that BBB or whatever it is. I bought my trusty and out of date 32Mib EFA-Linker from a store that only ships to the UK, so I can't recommend it to you.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2007 21:41
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I use consoleup.com, in the UK but I've had no problems with them.


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Jess T
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 03:03
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No idea, mate...

I only have an EFAII (from kicktrading.ca), and a SuperCard MiniSD (from natrium42.com)

I recommend Natrium42's shop:
http://www.electrobee.com/

He's a big contributor to the scene, and his prices are pretty cheap.

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DrewG
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 03:47
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Thank you all, I think I may go with Jess T's link.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 07:31
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Quote: "Well, while the missing Yahoo! rating is a little concerning, it does have that BBB or whatever it is."


I wouldn't trust a BBB link. The BBB will approve just about anything that give em money

In searching there were a number of people who had bad experience with their customer service, but nothin' much else.

I'd personally order from somewhere more reliable if you can.


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Zergei
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 12:24
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I got my devkit and everything else here, http://www.gamersection.ca/

Further on my stuff at...
TurboSquid.com
The3dStudio.com
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Chris K
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 13:28
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Quote: "Nice, I reckon you'd get quite a few downloads if you started advertising that!"


Took me an age to understand how to make efficient display lists, especially when they need to read off matrices in the middle of it...

ATM it can't load them off the card, they have to be built into the .ds and held in memory. Once it's all DLDIed up and tested I'll upload it somewhere.

I have an absolute crap tonne of work to do at the moment though, should be able to work on it over Christmas...

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Roxas
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2007 14:02
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Everyone who wants to start homebrew dev. Then look at these links:

Devkit Pro (Contains GBA,PSP,DS dev tools libaries etc..):
http://www.devkitpro.org/

PALib (Really good DS libary for beginners and others too IMO):
http://www.palib.info


There is even more DS dev links at Jess T thread. Just search for getting started with homebrew or something


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