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Geek Culture / Vista 64bit or 32 bit?

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Scraggle
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 19:49
I have just ordered a new PC and I decided to order 32bit Vista because of all the hardware driver incompatibilities that I have heard of.
However, all of the nightmares about 64bit Vista that I can find seem to be about a year out of date. I still have time to change my mind and get 64bit vista installed and if I do then things will run faster, so, it is a better choice but until I can be sure that the compatibility problems have gone away I can't warrant taking that risk.

So, does anyone have any up to date info regarding the compatibility issues of 64bit Vista? Like I said all the info I can find is way out of date.

Thanks



Raven
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 20:08
The only limitations I've found with Vista 64bit have been a lack of Drivers for certain hardware.

I would recommend spending a little more on getting Vista Retail, over OEM. As it allows you to install any version, as well as supporting up to 5machines with your license (as opposed to 1 that OEM allows)

There is also a new Enterprise version (which costs about the same as retail) which supports an unlimited number of machines as well as not requiring online activation.

bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 20:08 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 20:11
It really depends on the hardware. What are you buying? Where are you buying it?

And Raven, Enterprise edition is for corporations only I don't think you can get it for any reasonable price as a consumer. Ultimate also offers more features (it includes all business features as well as everything in home premium, plus the ultimate extras).


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Dazzag
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 20:20
Quote: "I would recommend spending a little more on getting Vista Retail, over OEM"
I agree, but when I was looking I found that the retail version was like two and a half times the cost of the OEM from the same online stores. Good old amazingly high UK prices basically. You could essentially buy both 32bit and 64bit version of Ultimate for a fair bit less than the full retail version. Honestly, how they (and most other computer companies *coff*Apple*coff*Sony*coff*) can get away with such almost criminally high prices (compared to USA) in the UK is beyond me...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Raven
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 20:51
Yeah that's true, I bought my copy from the Microsoft US store and had it shipped over (with downloadable option)

Vista 32-bit Ultimate was £50 while Retail was £80 (with £10 p&p)
So either were fairly cheap, probably hasn't gone up much either since.

GatorHex
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 20:56 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 21:00
32 bit will run your old software better.

New software like Crysis claims to run slightly faster on 64bit version.

I'm building a new machine for a music/MIDI person and 32bit seems to have better driver support so he's having that

The aero interface is a gimic in my opinion so I just get home basic for £50 from scan.co.uk

Go 64bit if you need math or variable larger than 32bits. I think I read somewhere a 64bit databases index would never need to refresh because you would be long dead before it ran out of ints

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 21:04
Quote: "Vista 32-bit Ultimate was £50 while Retail was £80"


Tha Whaat!! That's extremely cheap. Both cost less then my Vista Basic. I also bought mine for a US store but I never seen it that cheap. Raven probably has a secret?

David R
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 21:08
I got Home Premium for £65 quid OEM: Even with the cheap price, I don't really see why I bothered, since I'm back with XP anyway, but I'm glad I didn't shell out for retail

Oh, and the trick to get around the whole "locked to one mobo" thing by the way; ring up MS and claim your original motherboard was destroyed. They'll instantly let you 'unlock' it and install on another machine


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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 21:30
Home Basic isn't just losing aero, your losing media center, extenders, windows backup, remote desktop, dvd maker, and various other things.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/editions/choose.mspx?wt_svl=10033VH_OS_Other1&mg_id=10033VHb1

When you compare home premium to ultimate, you lose other stuff as well with home premium, like bitlocker and animated desktop.

64bit vista runs 32bit windows software just fine, there's just a couple games out there that I found 64bit vista couldn't run, but would run on 32 bit. I havent run across any normal software that had this issue though.

I'd go with 64bit if you look around and verify that all of your hardware has a 64bit vista driver. That includes your sound card, video card (unless it's old it should), and any peripherals.

Most other hardware should run fine on vista. 32bit drivers do work, sometimes. check reviews...


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jasonhtml
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 21:32 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 21:33
i HAVE the 64 bit Vista and it works just fine except lack of driver support for OLD hardware. assuming your hardware isn't old, you will be fine. the only thing that i didn't have supported was an 8 year old mouse...

and i also agree on spending the extra money for the retail version. (cause thats what i did too )

edit: i dont know if this is important, but i got Home Premium.

bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 21:34 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 21:35
I agree, but if it means the you'd have to buy home basic instead of ultimate, go OEM and grab ultimate

What may be best for you is if you have a buddy who has a 64bit copy of vista, install it without a key and try it out for 30 days. After 30 days it will require you to activate it.


The greatest multiplayer text adventure ever...
Scraggle
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 22:12 Edited at: 25th Nov 2007 22:13
Thanks Guys.
I think I will cancel the Vista install all together and buy a non OEM version. Still unsure about 64bit though. Whilst all of the main PC is new I am keeping the monitors, printer & scanner. There are other things that may cause problems too like Playstation controller interface and Logitech Momo wheel and there is always other small things that may crop up that I had overlooked.

My new PC specs are listed below. As you can see there shouldn't be any problem with the PC itself just other bits that I might connect.

Specs:
Quote: "CAS: X-Cruiser Mid-Tower 420W Case W/ WINDOW, MultiMeter Display & Control (Black Color)
CASUPGRADE: NONE
CS_FAN: Default Case Fan
CPU: (Quad-Core)Intel® CoreT 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz 1066FSB 8MB L2 Cache 64-bit
CD: SONY DUAL FORMAT 18X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER (SILVER COLOR [+6])
CD2: SONY DUAL FORMAT 18X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER [+20] (SILVER COLOR [+6])
CABLE: None
FLASHMEDIA: INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer (SILVER COLOR)
FREEBIE_CU1: FREE! CyberPower Multi-Purpose Carrying Case
FREEBIE_CU2: FREE! Cyberpower Unleash The Power T-Shirt
FAN: Asetek Liquid CPU Cooling System (Extreme Cooling Performance + Extreme Silent at 20dBA) [+43]
FLOPPY: NONE
GIFTPACK: NONE
HDD: Dual Hard Drive (1TB [2x500GB] SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)
IEEE_CARD: NONE
KEYBOARD: Logitech Cordless LX710 Desktop Laser Keyboard & Mouse [+33]
MOUSE: NONE [-4]
MODEM: NONE
MONITOR: NONE [-114]
MONITOR2: NONE
MOTHERBOARD: (Quad-Core Supports) MSI P6N SLI-FV2 nForce 650i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard
MEMORY: (Req.DDR2 MainBoard)8GB (4x2GB) PC6400 DDR2/800 Dual Channel Memory (OCZ Nvidia SLI Ready Edition w/ Heat spreader [+245])
NETWORK: ONBOARD 10/100 NETWORK CARD
OS: Microsoft® Windows VistaT Home Premium (32-bit Edition)
PPU: NONE
PRO_WIRING: None
POWERSUPPLY: 700 Watts Power Supplies [+34] (Tagan 1000W Dual Engine SLI Ready Power Supply [+56])
RUSH: NONE
SOUND: Creative Labs X-FI Xtreme Gamer 7.1 PCI Sound Card [+49]
SPEAKERS: Creative Labs Inspire T7900 7.1 Configuration Speakers System [+45]
TEMP: NONE (AS SHOWN)
TVRC: NONE
USB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
USBHD: NONE
UPS: None
VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB 16X PCI Express Video Card [+162] (XFX Extreme Edition Geforce 8800 GTX 768 [+31])
VIDEO2: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB 16X PCI Express Video Card [+307] (XFX Extreme Edition Geforce 8800 GTX 768 [+31])

WEBCAM: Logitech Quickcam Express [+10]
WNC: NONE
WAP: NONE
WARRANTY: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT"




David R
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 22:37
Quote: "I think I will cancel the Vista install all together and buy a non OEM version."


Why?


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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 23:11
hmm, the computer itself should be fine. Just check the printer/scanner, but the momo works under vista 64bit, check for drivers on your printer/scanner/ps2 interface and see if the manu offers a 64bit driver. Also remember that in 6 months it very well could be supported better. And like I said I have run xp drivers on vista ultimate, on rare occasions..

I think you'd do fine with it.


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Scraggle
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 23:16
@DavidR
Because of all the things mentioned above.



David R
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Posted: 25th Nov 2007 23:31
It's costs 2.5x less than retail, you can get Ultimate OEM for very cheap, and although it's 'officially' limited to 1 motherboard, it can be worked around....

I'm failing to see a reason to avoid it :p


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MartinS
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 00:19
It's also worth noting that only 64-bit OS's can use more than 4 gigs of RAM, and you seem to have 8 gigs in that system.

I'm running 32-bit vista, and so far I've only had one compatibility problem (with my camcorder). Can't speak for those with 64-bit vista, but I haven't got a problem with the speed of my games and apps (and my computer specs are far below yours, mind).

And unless you are planning to put Vista on more than two computers, I don't see why you should spend extra on Retail. After all, you can buy two OEM copies for a little less.

Hope that helps.

MS

Formerly known as someone else.
Scraggle
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 00:58
Quote: "It's also worth noting that only 64-bit OS's can use more than 4 gigs of RAM"


Is that true?
I may be wrong but I thought you could use more than 4GB on a 32bit system but the OS would only show 3.5GB of it.



bitJericho
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 01:15
It will only show about 3.5 gigs of it, and it will only use that much


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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 11:28 Edited at: 26th Nov 2007 11:31
Quote: "and so far I've only had one compatibility problem"
I've had about 5 or so. Main one was VS6. But once you turn off Aero and use adminstrator privilages (you can set that up against the program so you don't have to remember to do it yourself every time, and Aero automatically turns back on when you exit).

Oh, and I can't see any advantage over OEM. I'm running Vista Ultimate 32bit for quite a while now with no worries. 64bit just won't be ready for everyday use for a while (unless they sort themselves out like OSX does supporting 32bit and 64bit at once apparently). For example I use a VPN for work and the software they use (and they won't use any other) totally doesn't work in anything but IE on a 32bit system. Trust me I've tried.

Cheers

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Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Mr Z
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 15:34
What I know, the advantage of 64-bit over 32-bit is that 64-bit can handle MUCH more data and is much better at it.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 16:18
True, but most of what we do will not benefit significantly from that, and if a load of hardware and software won't work at all then it's not really worth it yet really. Personally lots of computers with loads of huge hard drives and dual booting comes in handy. Currently using Virtual PC to get Ubuntu 64bit to work with my works VPN software (almost worked with that hack that allows IE to work in Linux) and a few other things before considering moving over for day to day work duties. So far so meh...

But again, if MS could support 32 and 64bit in one package like OSX (so I've been told) then everyone would be happy. Otherwise I would say give it 3 years (assuming all manufacturers always produce a 64bit driver along with their 32bit driver now).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Raven
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 16:28
Quote: "Is that true?
I may be wrong but I thought you could use more than 4GB on a 32bit system but the OS would only show 3.5GB of it."


Windows XP could only use 4GB, and yeah only shows 3.5GB
That is mostly down to how you calculate it though.. as not only do you have to take in to account the 1024-block demoninations, but also the table for each memory allocation.

In any-case Vista 32bit is capable of using up to the amount the processor and chipset can; by making each 4GB a relative partition.

You end up loosing more in the primary partition mind to compensate, as the table is built on that due to it being the one it can actively access directly without passing the 64bit/128bit address pointer; but realistically it works just fine as is.

The amount of memory you can max is directly related to the processor memory address bit.

x86-32, 4GB
x86-64, 16GB
PPC-64 (uses a 128bit memory parition), 64GB
GPU (128-512bit), 64-256GB

Actually quite shocking that graphics processors are just so far advanced in this sense compared to desktop processors.
Mind you technically speaking you can knock off about 5% from each for the allocation table.

Quote: "unless they sort themselves out like OSX does supporting 32bit and 64bit at once apparently"


From what I understand Microsoft haven't done this, mainly due to how the x86-64 are designed.
PowerPC processors, going between 32-bit and 64-bit essentially gives you double the registers... almost literally.

x86 however they're completely different architectures, which is a shame in a way as it means the move doesn't make as much sense as to 32bit; but in the same way the industry is trying to weene us off of the old flawed design of the x86.

Can't say I'm that upset about it, but we'll see in time if it was the right move.

I can say this about Windows 64bit, and you will see a performance increase. It isn't much; but it is enough to be noticeable.

Dazzag
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 16:43
Yeah, it's the "isn't much" bit that is enough to put me off when you consider the lack of drivers and the like. Even with owning 64bit hardware. Give it to the next version of Windows I reckon.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
Raven
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 16:51
True, focus is still quite obviously on the 32-bit sector right now.

Personally I reckon that developers will see 64-bit as a bust and move on to 128-bit within the next few years. The new AM2+ socket from AMD suggest this is a possibility too.

There are some core problems with the x86 design really, that just can't be patched anymore. Yet to move on would mean loosing a very large software library. If a move is going to ever happen Operating System developers and Hardware Manufacturers are all going to have to force such a thing.

For 64-bit they just haven't. Should never give the people a choice, as they'll be happy where they are.

bitJericho
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 18:48
Quote: "IE on a 32bit system. Trust me I've tried."


32bit IE is available in Vista 64bit. If you go to start > all programs > you'll see both listed as:

Internet Explorer
Internet Explorer (64bit)

Or something like that. Media Center is also available in 32 bit (I think by default), so you can use 32bit codecs on it.

And Raven, my belief is a different processor architecture won't become mainstream until processors are fast enough to run the old software via emulation with no slowdown... It'll be a while


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Raven
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Posted: 26th Nov 2007 20:42
Quote: "And Raven, my belief is a different processor architecture won't become mainstream until processors are fast enough to run the old software via emulation with no slowdown... It'll be a while"


Dunno, MacOS and AmigaOS emulate quite well.
Both Intel and AMD have started to include what they call "software operators" on their processors too; which is basically a way of setting emulation of older architecture and wrapping it to the new one.

You're probably right, not for a while before such things are mainstream but I think we're not that far from reasonable emulation at the hardware level.

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