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Geek Culture / HD sales numbers in NA

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:20
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Since some people around here have been claiming the death of Blu-Ray I just wanted to point out the latest HD sales numbers from NA that I just came across. Just lock this up if it turns into flames.

BD and PS3
"According to Video Business, actual numbers of standalone Blu-ray Disc units may be around 700,000, as there were 2 million PlayStation 3 consoles sold through October."

"72.6 percent of high-definition discs purchased by consumers were Blu-ray Disc, and just 27.4 percent were HD DVD."


HD-DVD and 360
"269,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD drives sold to date in North America"

"The HD DVD Promotional Group announced in November that it had sold more than 750,000 HD DVD players, including the Xbox 360 accessory, in North America."

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:32
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... Why do people argue about HD discs? It's stupid... HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, (Keywords of the day coming up) WHICHEVER IS CHEAPER. I'm using normal DVDs and CDs.... Does that mean every HD-DVD and Blu-Ray user hates me? LOOK! They agree on something...

@Digital Awakening
That wasn't aimed at you, btw. Just in general about arguing of them.

Cheers,

-naota

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:39
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I just can't see why anyone would consider BD as dead when it's selling better then the competition, especially in discs (almost 3 times as much) which shows the true interest as all PS3 buyers don't play BDs on them. It's also disc sales that the movie companies earn money on.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:40
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You've got to ask; how often, when watching a movie, do you think "The quality is rubbish, where's the Blu-Ray", etc? I never have. VHS was rubbish. The tapes got dirty easily, wore out, got tangled, were sensitive to magnetic fields and degraded before you even put them in your player. Not to mention the noises my player used to make. Is there anything actually wrong with DVD that needs changing so badly? Can anyone sat further than a metre away from their TV tell the difference besides the thickness of their wallet in the back pocket?


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David R
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 20:42 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 20:43
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These are stats only for NA though. I mean, yeah, obviously Region 1 is important and whatnot, but surely the worldwide adoption rate is more important that just a single continent?

EDIT:
Quote: ""72.6 percent of high-definition discs purchased by consumers were Blu-ray Disc, and just 27.4 percent were HD DVD."
"


...of how many? Percentiles are great, but for all we know, the combined sales of HD-DVD + BR could be, I dunno... 5?


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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 21:32 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 21:33
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Who said Blu-Ray is dead? I pet my Blu-Ray player every day.

Planet Earth on Blu-Ray is just jaw dropping. I wouldn't buy a DVD now if I knew there was a Blu-Ray version out there. I'd probably say the same for HD-DVD if I had a player.

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 21:49
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People were saying that in one of the anti-ps3 threads (the PS4 thread I do believe). Silly because Blu-Ray is hands-down murdering HD-DVD in sales. Some people just refuse to believe there's good things about the PS3 .


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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 21:55
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Quote: "
You've got to ask; how often, when watching a movie, do you think "The quality is rubbish, where's the Blu-Ray", etc? I never have. VHS was rubbish. The tapes got dirty easily, wore out, got tangled, were sensitive to magnetic fields and degraded before you even put them in your player. Not to mention the noises my player used to make. Is there anything actually wrong with DVD that needs changing so badly? Can anyone sat further than a metre away from their TV tell the difference besides the thickness of their wallet in the back pocket?"


You wont see a quality difference on your standard tv. It only makes a different on an high def tv. And at that, only really on a 1080i resolution.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:09
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Well, to be quite frank, a good DVD player or indeed any PC will be able to make up the majority of the difference. How often are most movies in perfect, pin sharp focus? Few of the ones I watch are, and it's consequently difficult to see the difference. Yes, I have watched a Blu-Ray demo on a PS3 on a top of the range Sony HD. I simply stepped back four metres, ie. where most people sit whilst watching a movie and the difference was so marginal it was hardly noticable. Certainly not worth paying more than DVD for, anyway. I suppose that like Vista is a bit naff after the difference between XP and 98, Blu-Ray is a bit naff after the difference between DVD and VHS.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:20 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 22:21
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http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/index.html

Uh, there's a pretty large difference.

(click the image to see it at full resolution)


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:22
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@NeX
To avoid flame-war, remove the vista comment. I'm not saying I take offense to it... But someone will..... :/

cheers,

-naota

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:24
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It's a quite a difference in still - but in motion, the difference really isn't worth the bother, unless you splash out on a 40in+ TV. The likes of which I am yet to see out of an electronics store.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:26
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Quote: "It's a quite a difference in still - but in motion, the difference really isn't worth the bother, unless you splash out on a 40in+ TV. The likes of which I am yet to see out of an electronics store."


As I said, you can't see the difference unless you're at the 1080i resolution

It makes a pretty good difference though, when I compare watching a dvd in my puter with a downloaded hd video.

For example, go check out http://azureus.com/ and see some of their hd trailers, then watch that trailer on your standard tv


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:33 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 22:33
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Again, if I sit at a distance at which the screen is, from my perspective, roughly the same size as the TV, the difference (this is a HDTV, but the Sky box is not) is negligable. If I sit at my PC desk, at which point, the screen is roughly three times as big as my TV from my perspective, the difference is clear. But I really can't see what all the fuss is about. And don't say I've got poor eyesight either, because I can and do read every single letter on the optician's board without help. When I saw that demonstration with the Sony HD, there was a standard definition TV to the side playing the same movie off a standard DVD. Was there much difference? Even the store owner admitted there wasn't.


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David R
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Posted: 17th Dec 2007 22:39 Edited at: 17th Dec 2007 22:40
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I think the only real 'window' HD opens up, is for console games - higher res allowing clearer, possibly smaller, and more text on screen at once (So you don't need a massive HUD, because the HD can cope with small stuff)

This is ultimately irrelevant to the media they use though...


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 04:19 Edited at: 18th Dec 2007 04:20
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The HD discs isn't JUST picture btw. Stupid arguments. It has space too. (Notice how I'm not being specific to which I'm talking about... Know why? BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH HD.)

Cheers,

-naota

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Osiris
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 04:59
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I don't even have an HD tv yet...

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You will be dearly missed.
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 05:05
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Quote: "Some people just refuse to believe there's good things about the PS3"


No offense, but is there something wrong with you? This is Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD thing, *not* 360/Wii vs. PS3. Stop whining and taking every dig at a Sony product as a dig at the PS3. This is seriously getting annoying

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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 05:28
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@Osiris
Neither do I... You're not alone. :/

Cheers,

-naota

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Osiris
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 05:33
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Ah well, my friend has one and I can justify buying one, I just don't see that much of a difference.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 10:50
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For most people in this forum HD is not really much to bother with since we only have equipment for SD. The difference between SD and HD is not huge but the higher resolution will result in more details, if you have a good and large enough TV. Of course the video material used must be of very high quality as well or HD will bring out all the flaws there where blurred out before. If you get some old movie on a DVD (like Highlander) the quality is quite crappy.

Also note that 720p may not be enough to compare against modern upscaled DVD, but HD-DVD is capable of 1080i and BD is capable (due to larger storage and higher speeds) of 1080p. So if you own a 720p TV then a good DVD player might be a good option.

A recommended distance to sit from your TV is 3 times the size. Thus the distance to a 40" TV should be 120" or ~3 meters, if you want more feeling (like a cinema) and details you must sit closer. Since I have a small flat, the distance from my couch to my 19" TV is 3 times and it feels great. Wouldn't mind a 24" wide screen TV though

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Van B
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 11:40
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There is a notable difference when you compare HD to SD, things are just a lot clearer with HD.

But in saying that, I don't really care - I like to buy nice cheap classic movies on DVD for <£5 - I don't think buying HD versions would be worth the money for whatever extra quality I might get.


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Zappo
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 12:53
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Quote: "No offense, but is there something wrong with you? This is Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD thing, *not* 360/Wii vs. PS3. Stop whining and taking every dig at a Sony product as a dig at the PS3. This is seriously getting annoying"

I think he was refering to the 'PS4' thread there (and note the smiley). There were several people in there who believed BluRay had lost the HD war - tha_rami repeated it at least 6 times even after being shown the figures. Even you Jeku made a sarcastic (although funny) comment comparing it to Betamax, Minidisc and UMD

Nex, I am sure the original recommendations for sitting far from the screen was for CRTs and when pixels were big ("you'll get square eyes sitting that close"!). Perhaps this will change as pixels are smaller and you no longer get irradiated in front of the tube?! Personally I can see the difference HD provides and it all adds to the atmosphere and immersion. I could live without it. I can watch movies on VHS and enjoy them, but surely if you have the option of better video and audio then its not a bad thing. As Van B points out, with older classics you won't see (or hear) any benefit over DVD but with modern movies shot with HD digital cameras its always nice to see as much detail as possible.


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 13:20
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BTW, it's kinda useless to shout about DVDs anyway. We all know that the HD formats will rule the market in a few years when the prices drop and you can't really buy DVDs any more. And then the next generation comes and we have the same discussions Or maybe not, it's not like we are gonna need better quality then 1080p, I guess. People have argued about whether 720p or 1080i is the best resolution, but 1080p solves that problem. If there's gonna be a "better" format then it have to be something other then a flat picture. Maybe we have 3D movies or something in the future.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 13:35
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I've never actually seen an HD picture but people are so stupid to say "what's the point? do we really NEED this?" they've said that since the frigging light bulb was invented!

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 13:41
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It's much harder to detect an improvement if you're used to something inferior. Like when I first heard a CD I couldn't detect any improvement over MC except that it was much easier and faster to navigate. After a while you can't listen to MC because the quality is crap.

Need is a strong word Do we really need TVs?

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Matt Rock
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 16:15
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Quote: "This is Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD thing, *not* 360/Wii vs. PS3. Stop whining and taking every dig at a Sony product as a dig at the PS3. This is seriously getting annoying "

Sure, I agree, it's annoying... if you take it out of context


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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 17:34
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Quote: "Even you Jeku made a sarcastic (although funny) comment comparing it to Betamax, Minidisc and UMD"


Yah, in another thread, from a few months ago.

Alright, next time someone says something good about Blu-Ray, make sure to say "Wow, somebody *finally* recognizes the power of the PS3"


I obviously prefer Blu-Ray format to DVD now that I have a drive. But from what I understand, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer the same kinds of benefits. Both output up to 1080p, with top of the line sound capabilities. Isn't this kind of like comparing two different brands of umbrellas? They both help keep out the rain and do virtually the same thing, but they're made by two different companies.

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Zappo
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 17:41 Edited at: 18th Dec 2007 17:47
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Pretty much. But one umbrella can only be held in the left hand, and the other can only be held in the right hand. Don't try and interchange them or they won't work - and you get wet.
Oh, and more people buy right handed ones.

(This analogy has quickly turned bad )


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RalphY
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 18:00 Edited at: 18th Dec 2007 18:00
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Quote: "I don't even have an HD tv yet..."


I don't even have a TV! I just use my monitor now, as I watch DVDs on my 360 which can plug directly into it.

I'm not bothered with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. I will wait until one of them becomes the standard before I upgrade.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 18:15
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That's a good plan. I usually hang onto my last gen stuff until it falls apart or it is phased out completely.


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demons breath
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Posted: 18th Dec 2007 23:31
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Quote: "That's a good plan. I usually hang onto my last gen stuff until it falls apart or it is phased out completely."


Yeah... I still listen to tapes and I'm much more likely to play Age Of Empires or Tetris than World Of Warcraft or Halo... {ok i'm probably showing vastly inferior knowledge now because those two I quoted as newer are still pretty old - it's just about the last time I remember hearing people care about a new game... I think there were Halo sequels though? or at least one...}

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 10:55 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 11:00
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Quote: "I obviously prefer Blu-Ray format to DVD now that I have a drive. But from what I understand, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer the same kinds of benefits. Both output up to 1080p, with top of the line sound capabilities. Isn't this kind of like comparing two different brands of umbrellas? They both help keep out the rain and do virtually the same thing, but they're made by two different companies."


1) Last time I checked BD had twice the reading speed then HD-DVD. This is possible because the data on a BD is stored much closer to the laser while HD-DVD stores the data in the middle of the disc (like DVD). This is also the reason for the higher cost of BD as a protective layer has to be applied to protect the data because it's so close to the surface. HD-DVD is not fast enough to stream 1080p, only 720p and 1080i. This is why BD is considered (or just marketed as) full or true HD. If there's any new info on this I'll gladly take a look.

2) A standard BD disc can hold 50 GB while a standard HD-DVD can hold 30 GB, these are dual layer configurations and both can be made with more layers (I think BD was made up to 200 GB) but regular players can't read them.

3) BD is so much easier to type then HD-DVD



I should point out that HD-DVD upscaled to 1080p so far looks very much the same as BD (from what I've heard). I don't know what the difference is with high quality media and a large high quality TV though. BD have suffered much initially from bad quality media, thus people have stated that BD looks worse then HD-DVD but it's not the disc at fault since it contains digital data.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 12:38
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Quote: "3) BD is so much easier to type then HD-DVD"


Disagreed Everybody knows what DVD is, and everybody knows what HD is, and I'm talking about the average consumer, not all the computer people. Bluray, while the name is catchy, isn't as easy to figure out from the name.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 12:54 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 13:02
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"BD" is so much easier to TYPE then "HD-DVD"

When DVD was new people didn't know about that, most people doesn't even know that it stands for "Digital Versatile Disc". BD is simply "Blu-ray Disc". Note that it's spelled with "-". Which also is much shorter then "High Definition Digital Versatile Disc". Personally I would have gone with HDVD "High Density Versatile Disc" or BDVD "Blue laser Digital Versatile Disc" instead of HD-DVD.

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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 17:27
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Hmm those are interesting comparisons, and definitely have points that prove BD's superiority. I'd be hard pressed to find someone who can recognize the difference between 1080i and 1080p, however

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 19:56
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Well, with two alternating colours at 60fps, it will cause scan lines unless filtered properly. Other than that, there is no noticeable difference.


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 10:56
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Jeku:
The downside of using interlaced is that every other line is updated every frame, so this is only really noticed when there's a lot of movement on screen so the difference between the odd and even lines are large. The result is a blurred image. This is thus not noticeable at all if you look at still images. As I've mentioned before people have in the past argued whether 720p or 1080i is the best resolution, this however was using DVD media and not with todays modern playback technology. I myself have never had the chance to compare so I can only go from things I've read.

HD-DVD beats BD in all things concerning price:
1) It's cheaper to produce, no protective coating. It is slightly less resistant but still equal to DVD.

2) Can be produced in a DVD factory with minor upgrades. BD requires new factories to be produced, thus price per disc is increased to cover this.

3) You can have DVD on one side and HD-DVD on the other which means you can sell the same discs to people owning DVD players, who can then buy a HD-DVD player later. I guess this means you can't have a full color print on the top like normal discs. But AFAIK there are no such hybrid discs available.

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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 12:50 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 12:56
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Often it comes down to name and cost

Betamax v VHS (Beetamax was better but lost to cheaper VHS)
Lynx v GameBoy (Atari Lynx was better but lost to a black and white screen! Made no sense!)

HD-DVD v BlueRay

Geeks will know what HD-DVD is but Joe Public will know BlueRay and they will associate it with BlueTooth and will think it good for that reason even though it makes no logical sense. I'd hate to predict which would win.

I think I'll stick with regular DVD until everything is sub £100 level

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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 12:53
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I really liked the Lynx, and the GameGear for that matter - but the GameBoy had so many games, I mean that little Mario game that came out early for it, coupled with Tetris, the Lynx never stood a chance against Tetris and Mario.


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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 13:00 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 13:06
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I have to hand it to Nintendo they are the masters of making Joe Public want to pay over the odds for yesterdays technology.

Of course HDD and Blue Ray are just there to make us repay for all our media again like we did from Cassette to CD and VHS to DVD.

How many times have we bought FIFA? I'm sure it's the same game and they just stick 07 on the title but I still hanker after simplicity of Sensible Soccer

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 14:46
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Quote: "I really liked the Lynx, and the GameGear for that matter - but the GameBoy had so many games, I mean that little Mario game that came out early for it, coupled with Tetris, the Lynx never stood a chance against Tetris and Mario."


Yeah, the games are everything on a console and Tetris is such a popular game. Mario of course is there to sell every Nintendo hardware, except the Wii which had Zelda instead (but Wii Sports probably did it more). I remember renting a GB and played Mario on it and I borrowed one from a friend to play Zelda 4, which of course was just as amazing as you can get in B/W. Sticking to that Zelda 3 formula that worked so well.

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