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Geek Culture / Voxels?

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 04:27
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i recently got a game called Outcast (1999) This game used voxel technology to render things. I am familiar with how voxels work, If i am not wrong voxels are 2 dimensional pixels that in groups can make a 3d image image. I also looked up a couple of voxel engines and looked at the demos which proved to be pretty amazing.

The game Outcast has pretty incredible 3d detail on its terrain for its time I took a few sreenshots.

So, voxels can make very good looking imagery without straining the cpu. If the voxel method could be perfected, i think it can have great results in games that use them.

Does anyone know exactly how voxels work? I tried Observing things in the game and demo programs, but its too mind boggling.

and i had one more crazy idea that i am guessing will not work (and who am i to propose this idea without any knowledge of voxels?)
Can voxes be implemented into dark basic?

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 04:28 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 04:35
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 04:30 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 04:37
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sorry i feel like an idiot for not knowing how to correctly post screen shots but for some reason it wont let me post more than one screen

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 04:35 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 04:43
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http://img256.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outcast6et9.png
http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outcast8nm2.png
http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outcast4ru7.png
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outcast10tz5.png

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 04:53 Edited at: 19th Dec 2007 11:25
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Traditionally drawing voxel terrain is totally CPU bound. This could no doubt be augmented today via rendering the spans with the GPU. Actually, you'd have too in order to preserved Z depth. Otherwise the terrain and dynamic scene objects wouldn't interleave, they'd be separate.

You could certainly write a version for DBpro, but you'd need something that gives you access to DrawPrimative for example to render the clipped strips. Actually anything that supports batched line drawing should do. Ie. Cloggy's dll

Voxel Renderer - Smooth Voxel Terrain Tutorial

Google Voxel Terrain tutorials for more


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Libervurto
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 14:33
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@KP
what exactly is the download you linked to?

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IanM
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 15:13
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It's a DOS-based voxel terrain rendering demo.

There's an article on flipcode.com that's got a lot of detail about voxels and rendering them as polys

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 15:43
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I heard that Voxels don't run on new cards like they used to? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read that somewhere. So they may not be as fast as they were in the old days. Again, dunno for sure where I read that

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David R
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 18:10
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Quote: "I heard that Voxels don't run on new cards like they used to"


Yeah, kind of, because GPUs are designed to accelerate polygons not voxels.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 22:59
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A few DS games use them.


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Dec 2007 23:37
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Quote: "what exactly is the download you linked to?
"

they are screenshots

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 01:46
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Voxels are awsome. Personally I prefer the look of the voxel rendering in Outcast versus the rendering done today.

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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 01:55
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Look at the flipcode article - you CAN use 3D acceleration with voxels

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Osiris
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 07:45
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Or CAN you IanM? I demand a demo! <=his yelling made him lose his pipe!

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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 09:18
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I always liked the Delta Force games, especially Land Warrior, that made great use of voxel technology, I remember being very impressed with the terrain in that.


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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 09:23
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Yah, I was impressed by Comanche's voxel engine--- 12 years ago

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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 11:53
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I don't really understand voxels, are they pixels that are only displayed when you'd be able to see them in 3D?

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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 12:15
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Voxels are like lots of points in 3D, a handful of points might represent a hill, the more detail, the more points are required. But the benefit is in that they don't need anywhere near the amount of data that you would for an equivalent terrain, and you have a lot of control over the detail. It makes truly massive terrains possible without needing massive heightmaps - like this screenshot from Land Warrior...



See how close to the camera the detail is actually better than we see in modern games, and the draw distance is very decent - that would take a huge amount of memory to achieve with a standard terrain.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 12:51
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Oh wow, I thought those were polygons in Land Warrior

That's not fair.

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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 13:58
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Quote: "Or CAN you IanM? I demand a demo!"

Not a chance - my maths isn't strong enough for that, and patience is lacking too.

Quote: "If you render them as polygons, they aren't really voxels anymore"

1. Draw dots - it's still a voxel
2. Draw batches where the dots match (for optimisation) - it's still a voxel
3. Draw the batches with 3D acceleration - it's not a voxel any more?

How they are rendered has no bearing on the fact of them being voxels - it's how they are implemented and generated that matters.
Using the example Van posted ... did you know that Landwarrior uses DirectX for acceleration? You can't say that Landwarrior doesn't use voxels, because it's obvious from the screenshot that it does.

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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 14:12
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I actually think that Land Warrior is a bit different to the previous 2 Delta Force games. The first 2 relied more on software rendering, so the terrain is drawn directly, but LW looks like it generates polygons to represent the terrain, high detail close to the camera then detail deminishes the further into the distance it goes.

The terrain in all the Delta Force games is good though, not sure why Voxels aren't used more in modern games.


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 14:14 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 14:18
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Interesting thread - but I am totally confused by Van B and IanM's comments.

I've just Googled "terrain voxels" and looked through a few references - and looked at the tutorial recommended by Kevin Picone - but can't reconcile any of it with the following statements:

Quote: "a handful of points might represent a hill,"


and

Quote: "because it's obvious from the screenshot that it does"


My reading of the references suggests that "voxels" (i.e. volume pixels) are just a way of rendering a terrain height and colour map via the cpu without the need for a polygon terrain.

I've obviously missed something vital somewhere. Could someone elaborate - or point to a specific reference?

Edit Just seen WindowsKiller's post - we seem to be reading the same descriptions of voxels. Over to you IanM and Van B.
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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 14:37
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Read this page to get a simple intro to voxels (ignore the talk of polygons here - he's just talking about grouping related voxels into a single entity, and that's not what we're talking about).

Then you can take a look at this flipcode tutorial, especially part 6 to get more detail on voxels and how they can be 3D accelerated.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 14:57
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Thanks - but I still don't see the essential difference between this and what I said before:

Quote: "are just a way of rendering a terrain height and colour map via the cpu without the need for a polygon terrain"


Don't the "voxels" just get their detail from the input height map? If not from there, where? (I.e a few pixels in the heightmap can give you a hill if the scale and filtering are right).
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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 15:26
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Voxels are kinda the opposite of a heightmap though, unless I'm missing something a voxel terrain is made from lots of 3D points, with more points being used where more detail is needed. Like they might start with a random spread of points over the whole area, then add more detail on the bits where the player is likely to go. I don't think a heightmap is used or created at any point.

The scale of the Delta Force games, even the first one is absolutely huge, bigger than the Battlefield games by miles, you can actually snipe someone from about a mile away.


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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 15:40
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You don't have to have to use a bitmap to produce your heightmap for a voxel system. At it's heart, the voxel system is based on raytracing - any way that the height of the terrain at a point can be determined is good, as long as you can calculate the height of the pixel on-screen.

That said though, I can't think of any systems where a non-bitmap heightmap has been used. I remember in the first DF, they used a single heightmap and tiled it to produce an infinite landscape, although the z-clipping was a little dodgy at times (you could sometimes see someone crawling behind a ridge or hill).

That's another point right there - if you can use 3D acceleration in your voxel rendering, then you can combine it simply and easily with a standard 3D system without worrying about reconciling the distances and the clipping.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 15:54
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Quote: "I don't think a heightmap is used or created at any point."
(Van B)

Quote: "I can't think of any systems where a non-bitmap heightmap has been used"
(IanM)

Let's just sit back and wait for them to sort it out.
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David R
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 15:57
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There are multiple techniques regarding voxels, there is no 'fixed' definition on what it actually means to use them - all it relates to is the use of volume.


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Van B
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 16:14
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I'm staying out of it from now on!, I thought I understood what they were, complex buggers - no wonder we don't use them anymore. Of course if someone made a voxel plugin for DBPro I'd have to check it out...


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 16:23
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Doesn't the latest in LOD tech for vertex shaders replace the need for voxels? Nowadays you can alter the polygon detail depending on distance from the camera using hightmaps.

Van:
Basically, instead of turning a hightmap into polygons you turn it into voxels. Hightmaps are the easiest way to create landscapes, if you don't use them then you need something similar anyway.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 18:35
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My cousin has developed something like voxels and he's putting it on a chip, he showed me some demos and it looks a lot like that but doesn't have the same restrictions. I'll try and see if I can get the video off him and upload it for you guys to take a look at

Can you only make hills from voxels? Is there a way to make 3D objects from them?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 18:35 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 18:36
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Can I throw Pixols into the discussion? You know just to make things awkward and exasperate things a little...basically the so-called system which is the foundation of how Zbrush renders and works (hence the company is called 'Pixologic') basically pixels that handle depth and another kind of data I forgot. Joking though, otherwise the discussion would last for ever if I did.

This would be the first time I've heard the term 'voxels', I've heard of 'Vauxhalls' but I'm sure they're not the same, though my sister drives one. Though I am interested in what they are, like Gandalf the discussion has ended up getting me befuddled.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 18:43 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 18:44
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=-Dkkh2A6nns

You can make 3d models with voxels. Another plus for voxels is destroyable geometry. I played a demo once, can't find it for the life of me now, where all the surfaces were destroyable. I could make tunnels in the ground and walk through them I could make chunks sticking out of the side of a hill break off.

Er.. found it

http://www.advsys.net/ken/voxlap/voxlap03.htm


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Libervurto
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 18:47 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 18:48
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ZBrush looks even more like what my cousin invented, maybe he has missed the boat
That asian girl in the video is hot!

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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 19:14
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http://www.vitalimages.com/Our_Company/Newsroom/ImageGallery.aspx

apparently this was all done in voxels too. Definately better resolution than polygons


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Blobby 101
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 19:42
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if voxels are all great and can get better detail with lower specs - why aren't they used any more?


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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 19:45
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Quote: "Doesn't the latest in LOD tech for vertex shaders replace the need for voxels?"

Not really - LOD is about removing detail from an existing detailed mesh, ie you have to have maximum detail to start. Voxel terrains are about generating the correct level of detail in realtime by interpolating between heights.

Quote: "Is there a way to make 3D objects from them?"

Already done - MRI scans build up a fully 3D image of what they are scanning (fully, as in not just the external, but internal too). These produce a set of all points within the object being scanned. These can be rendered as voxels - useful, because those points can be rotated as you wish and you can cut away the voxels you don't want to give you an internal view, all in real time.

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Accoun
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 19:46
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Dunno... Maybe they're harder to use...

Make games, not war.

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IanM
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 19:55
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Quote: "why aren't they used any more?"

Who said they aren't? Most of the Novologic games use them, C&C uses them, they are used for imaging purposes (not just medical).

I suspect that the polygon route is used more because of the built-in support of DX & OGL, the majority of existing tools support meshes, and voxels are harder to get right. Plus you'd want to mix polygons & voxels, which isn't too easy either.

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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 20:25 Edited at: 21st Dec 2007 20:30
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A voxel is just like a pixel. Except it is in 3 dimensions.

You know how most 3d uses vectors right? This is simply a 3d that uses pixels instead. And it's called a voxel.

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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 22:18 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 22:21
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@Jerico2day -
That was amazing! At first I was flying around the cave, judging it purely on looks. Far away the voxel rendering looks amazing, up close it leaves something to be desired. I understand why, the voxels have a limited resolution.

Then I said to myself 'I wish I had a gun', I pressed the mouse button, and started shooting the cave surfaces. It demonstrated some super accurate collision. I held the mouse button down, and started ripping the cave apart. It was crazy, chunks of voxel rock was flying around, and the interiors of the rocks looked pretty good. With a little anti-aliasing this would be an amazing terrain engine for DBP.

The red blaster was pretty cool. Imagine voxels + Dark Physics...

Up close they are nothing more than cubes. In DirectX it would be a mess rendering them, because each one would be a separate object.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 22:35
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Oh ye, the resolution isn't all that hot in this demo. But it could probably double and still give me a good framerate

And that doesn't include any antialiasing, which would help significantly in this type of demo.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 20th Dec 2007 22:38 Edited at: 20th Dec 2007 22:41
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Such an engine would be utterly fantastic in a space combat type of game - you could blast ships apart, or asteroids, or the surface of planets. I'd love to see a usable form of this developed for DBP. I'd definitely pay for it.

I can imagine mining asteroids with this type of engine.


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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 06:51
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That demo was sweet. It looks like the world is made out of small cubes. Is it yet possible to make voxels even smaller so it would look rather smooth not cuby?

the interesting thing is, this is how i always imagined the future of game graphics, all models are made out of small voxel-like particles (vs polygons)

i wish someone would perfect voxel technology because games out of that stuff can have infinite detail (as far as the size of the voxels pixels go)

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 07:07
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actually am not sure if those cube particles are the voxels, on second thought i think they are made up of voxels

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bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 07:46
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the individual cubes you are seeing when you get really close to the terrain are voxels. It's possible to increase the number of voxels in a given space, so yes, it can look less cubey.

And as I said before, it's theoretically possible to antialias the scene which should make for a fairly smooth surface.

Just take a look at the medical pictures I linked to, that's the type of stuff that can be rendered in fine detail. Of course, I'd imagine it'd take a lot of power to render something like that, so really using voxel technology for realistic simulation is probably still a few years away compared to the detail polys can give on an object.


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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 13:20 Edited at: 21st Dec 2007 13:21
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Some advantages of using polygons:
Textures and texture mapping including all the pixel shader technology to create bumps and other effects.

Anti aliasing only has to be applied on polygon edges. If you were to AA a voxel render then you must AA the whole image which is much much more demanding.

Most 3D programs use polygons, they are much easier to manipulate. Imagine using voxels for creating and animating objects!


Quote: "Not really - LOD is about removing detail from an existing detailed mesh, ie you have to have maximum detail to start. Voxel terrains are about generating the correct level of detail in realtime by interpolating between heights."


Um, what the difference in the end?

Anyway, with DX9 you can actually apply a hight map thingy to a model and the vertex shaders will increase the polygon count according to that hight map the closer the camera gets.

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PAGAN_old
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 15:07
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actually, i take back my previous statement, i red some stuff on this guys homepage, apperently the cubes are voxels

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hessiess
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 16:47
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Quote: "Most 3D programs use polygons, they are much easier to manipulate. Imagine using voxels for creating and animating objects!"


it is quite easy to convert a polygon model to a voxel model. i think somebody wrote a script for blender awile ago.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 21st Dec 2007 18:36
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Quote: "it is quite easy to convert a polygon model to a voxel model. i think somebody wrote a script for blender awile ago."


You'd be able to use nurbs


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