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Newcomers DBPro Corner / how big of a game world does darkbasic allow

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wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 01:36
the title says it all. i would like to make an air combat game and i have been making a very big yet lower poly terrain. and when i load it in i keep getting green flashes where the terrain disappears. right now i have it simple just the load terrain and my camera flying around. i even tried to fix camera range and it's just not working.

wind
sadsack
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 01:48
If you are going to make the ground a plain and texture it with a photo of taken from a aircraf, it can be very big. If you are going to make the world a 3d world with many building trees,telephones and other things, you may be have to brake it up into small parts.
renny
wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 01:54
well ill start at the begging I'm design the ships to be futuristic with futuristic abilities and i want you to learn how to fly so i'm giving you an in game lesson where you will have to keep up with your captain flying from your base to a test ground where you will have to take out small targets. i actually modeled a path that you will follow and i'm using images for the parts behind that.

my PROBLEM is that everything blinks when i get past the first part. almost like the level is to big. i broke it up to where it will take less polygons so i'm not exactly sure what the problem is.

wind
RUCCUS
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 03:52
This, along with pretty much every other question you could think of that has to due with DBP's capabilities, comes down to your media skills and your programming skills, and your computer specs.

a) If you can make good media with small lag (like low-poly modells or compressed PNG images), you can use a lot.

b) If you program an intelligent culling system to hide any unnecessary geometry / media, you can use a lot.

c) If you have a fast computer, you can use a lot.

wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 04:40
ok i made a very large terrain with textured details. the problem is when i go past a small piece my terrain gets deleted some how. i know how to make terrain without a lot of polygons. but for some reason i can only go so far before it disappears.

wind
wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 05:57
here is another part that is a little weird, the 3d model i used keeps dissapering when i move or turn. but i deleted it and made a matrix twice as big and it works just as fine. in fact the matrix has almost twice as many polys. i don't want to use a matrix but i will have no choice pretty soon.

wind
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 06:27 Edited at: 24th Dec 2007 06:33
without code examples and possibly the model(s) you're using (atleast some specific details like overall dimensions, polycount, filesize, etc), there's no way we could tell what the problem is. screenshots, etc, anything would help!

saying things "disappear" could mean so many things... you could be positioning your camera (accidentally) "underneath" the model (happens a lot when people try to keep the camera right at at "ground height", for example). i know you're "flying above it" though, which makes me think your camera range is too short. are you using fog commands? are you messing with object culling somewhere? are you scaling the model? are you SYNC-ing correctly? what program did you make the model in? how did you export it? just could be so many things without more info on what exactly you're doing.

i can't imagine a situation where you must use a matrix for the terrain. i just get the feeling it's 1 or 2 technical tweaks to fix your issue, but without some specifics, folks will simply be playing a guessing game as they try and help.

Virtual Nomad
AMD XP 1800+ (~1.6 Ghz) / 1.5 GB RAM
ATI Radeon 8700LE 128 MB / Windows XP
wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 06:42
i think it's a technical problem to so i will post a zip file in the morning getting kind of tired her. but thanks to everyone who is taking their time to help me.

wind
wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 16:37
ok i posted a small video of it on youtube and here is my code. nothing fancy i am experimenting with terrain i originaly made it in 3d studio max. i am just trying to test it i will be taking it back into 3d studio max to round of the sharp edges a retexture it i have a program where you can paint on the model and i want to uses it to paint snow in the valley and rocks on the cliffs. but unfortuantly i can't get the scale right but here is the code.


sync on:
rem this is the original film size. so this will be the size it will load up on. to save time for youtube
set window on
set window size 640,480

rem the gun is just a placedholder
load object "gun1.x",3 : position object 3,100,100,1000
load object "test.x",4 : position object 4,0,-50,0
rem this is the basic camera controls
make camera 1
position camera 1,0,0,0
set camera range 1,1,30000
rem this is the man loop
do
set cursor 0,0
print "level test" : print screen fps()
print "Polygons" : print statistic(1)
`controls
if upkey() then move camera 1,100
if downkey() then move camera 1,-100
if leftkey() then turn camera left 1,5
if rightkey() then turn camera right 1,5
if shiftkey()
pitch camera up 1,2
endIf
if controlkey()
pitch camera down 1,2
endIf
sync
loop

and here is the vid. i have the poly count and the frames per second in the corner so you can see that it's not to bad.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7bBI6mHUJBU

wind
Benjamin
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 18:00
Quote: "a) If you can make good media with small lag (like low-poly modells or compressed PNG images), you can use a lot."

Why would using compressed files make anything faster? They all end up the same format in memory.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
jason p sage
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 18:15
It wouldn't for sure - BUT - it may help loading time - PNG over BMP, DDS (depending on format used) over PNG.

Back to big terrain. I'm going for similiar "Scale" with my stuff - just follow my sig's web link - I've done literally 100's of tests, various configurations, various attempts at lod methods... learning what does and doesn't work - and frankly - you will need to do alot of this your self - as you ... and only you know what is acceptable to you etc.

Try different cam ranges - and for big terrain - fast results - used DBPro advanced terrain - turn up the fog, make athe cam range a bit high - get a working application where you can just fly a camera around. That will tell you alot about how you're doing with texture detail, frame rates, overall "scale" look - etc. There isn't a silver bullet for this.

I've found anomalies with terrain - sometiems its my card - other times its ludicrous settings. Remember - we're using 32 bit floats - they aren't infinate - there fore you need to decide where you want your numeric precision.... numbers like 32000.10 or 2.3445666 You can't have pixel perfect for both. (some may argue but - truth is if you have a cam range of 100000, and try having precise movement along 0.0002 - you're gonna get rounding errors when the computer tries to render the zbuffer. It's hard to explain - just experiment.

wind27382
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 19:21
the only problem with using dark basic for the terrain is that i want to take it into z brush and hand paint the texture. with z brush you can even paint the valleys. such as painting them a sow texture. and give a rock texture to the cliffs. thats why I'm trying to get it right with using an object. so I'll keep experimenting.

wind
jason p sage
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 19:46 Edited at: 24th Dec 2007 19:52
As you should. Know that there are different ways to do texturing... and many editors allow Texture "Splatting"... Nice blended look etc. Then they overlay a lightmap... This doesn't all JIVE in DBPro as one would think it would. You might want to consider spending more time on what you can and can't use to your satisfaction - BEFORE spending time drawing that perfect terrain in an editor - just to find out you could never get it to look that good in DBPro/DarkGDK.

I've learned this the hardway with both Ted (with DBO exports, Direct.X Mesh, and dynamic data for systems like advanced terrain) and Advanced Terrain it self - using height maps generated in other programs etc.. It's hard to glue it all together and when you do - you might still not get the look you want. This happened to me with Ted Editor.

"Sometimes Discretion is the better part of Valor"

I've made more media that I can't really use than I care to talk about...

I'd start by making some dummy test terrains - in your terrain editor - and see what you can do to make it look right in DBPRO.


[edit]
note: BIG Textures stretched over mesh to get look you want - usually results in limited terrain size - because each texture consumes lots of vid ram.

Techniques like "Alpha blending" and "Texture Splatting" are things you should pass through google and do some research on. while you're at it - scope of what "Vertex Normals" are, and how they interact with hardware lights and how shaders can use those values for "tricks" as well. (Fake a shadow - where ground banked away from light) For Texture splatting - there are three main techniques - alpha mapping, Pixel shader, and Vertex Shader. Pixel Shader lets you have a lot of drawing power - but hardware lighting shadows (lack of) might become an issue - Vertex Shaders - like Green Gandalf's Texture Blender for Terrains - work - but you need to sync your hardware lights with the shader's light settings to make stuff look right - and that shader in particular uses VERTEX NORMALS to make fake shadows, and the textures change based on height of terrain and angles discerned from vertex normals.

Tricky stuff.
[/edit]

RUCCUS
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Location: Canada
Posted: 24th Dec 2007 20:34
Quote: "Why would using compressed files make anything faster? They all end up the same format in memory."


I mean, how certain file types dont allow for as good of quality of an image as others. Like if you're able to get the same quality in a jpg that you can in a bmp (though I guess PNG's kind of eliminate that need).

HeavyAmp
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Posted: 24th Dec 2007 23:09
Quote: "how big of a game world does darkbasic allow"


Dark Basic won't be the limiting factor it will depend on your computer specs and the amount of CPU/Memory using features you want to add to your game world.

Better to be dead, than to live your life afraid.
wind27382
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 00:40
well i thoughtthat it would depend on my computer but i have a brand new dell wqith dual core processors and a gig of ram. i know that it's not the best but all i have is just a terrain and nothing else. i know my computer can handel that. so i'm doing a little more expiriments using the advanced terrain. I'm going to try and follow the advice that jason p sage left and see if their is a better way to create my large yet pretty terrain.

wind
wind27382
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 05:38
ok ive been searching the forums for tutorials and reading your post i'm trying to use advanced terrain and i think i might have installed it wrong. so if anyone has any advice i would appricate it.

wind
wind27382
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 05:54
if you can't tell i feel like an idiot. i actually just reinstalled advance terrain and it works fine. i was having the same problem i had when i first brought darkbasic. i forgot to adjust the system time to my computer.

wind
jason p sage
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 06:34
... Oh Boy (Don't feel bad - my dbpro stock editor still comes up and says I'm not licensed for advanced terrain - the now free plug in from TGC! )

Fortunately it doesn't stop me from coding however!

wind27382
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 18:04
HEY THANK YOU DARKBASIC COMMUNITY FOR THE HELP i found from taking your advice and searching the fourmns away to make a good terrains with high levels of detail now I'm just working on better polycounts. but thanks for the tips on advanced terrain.

wind
jason p sage
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Posted: 25th Dec 2007 19:22
dude - that is So Awesome! You passed! Now on to the next thing - ahha... You're part of the crowd now!

I'm feeling pretty good too - these guys on here helped me figure out how to finnaly take the sheets off the "stuff objects are made of" and I'm starting to have full control of objects, vertices, textures, ... now I too am running into issues - like poly counts, textures, and other things boiling down to that sweet spot of performance and presentation.

The challenges never stop coming!

wind27382
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Posted: 26th Dec 2007 00:18
to be honest with you jason the challenges are why i keep working at it. i get better every time i try. but on to another question gas anyone ever tried to work with layers on an advance terrain.

wind

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