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Geek Culture / The world as seen by a DBPro coder

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Grandma
18
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Joined: 26th Dec 2005
Location: Norway, Guiding the New World Order
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 17:32


Why Serdjo, why?

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
Pus In Boots
19
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Location: S.M.I.L.E. industries
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 17:47
Grandma and Seppuku: The pus in boots corporation is looking for evil trainees if you'd like to get on board.

Quote: "But don't forget to add FPSC Whiners."


That's not fair. I've used FPSC for over two years now and not onced have I come across as a whiner. Also we're not just a bunch of fanboys. Unlike you, we realise that FPSC has limitations and; on the whole, accept that as fact. Besides, I've yet to see a game in DBPro that matches the quality of a (well made) game in FPSC. To be fair, DBP is a programming program, so there's more flexibility. But we FPSCers like our creation process simpler.

If you're not referring to all FPSC users, then my bad. But if you are...

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Roxas
19
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Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 19:15
Quote: "That's not fair. I've used FPSC for over two years now and not onced have I come across as a whiner. Also we're not just a bunch of fanboys. Unlike you, we realise that FPSC has limitations and; on the whole, accept that as fact. Besides, I've yet to see a game in DBPro that matches the quality of a (well made) game in FPSC. To be fair, DBP is a programming program, so there's more flexibility. But we FPSCers like our creation process simpler.

If you're not referring to all FPSC users, then my bad. But if you are..."


You don't realise it.. but you are whining currently :/


Click For Details!
Jeku
Moderator
21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 20:34
Quote: "Besides, I've yet to see a game in DBPro that matches the quality of a (well made) game in FPSC. "


Are you serious? That is quite a stretch.

Tom J
19
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Joined: 4th Aug 2005
Location: Essex, England
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 20:37
Quote: "Besides, I've yet to see a game in DBPro that matches the quality of a (well made) game in FPSC"


You clearly haven't seen some of the DBP nVidia entries then.
Pus In Boots
19
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Joined: 5th Nov 2005
Location: S.M.I.L.E. industries
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 20:42
So from the sounds of it, I was wrong about that.

[/quote]
You don't realise it.. but you are whining currently :/[quote]
There's a difference between being whiny and being argumentative.

Getting back on track...

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r3d3y35
16
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Joined: 6th Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Posted: 6th Jan 2008 20:57
after i had been working on one of my games, i went up to my locker and i just hit it (to let out frustration) and to my surprise some1 had turned collision detection on......

Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 00:16
Stop looking down at the FPSC people, they aren't that bad. They kinda' take care of the noobs for you too!

Seriously though. The FPSC guys are more artistically oriented, meaning they are all about the media (unless they are a bunch of lazy noobs), unlike you DB people, who work more on the programming, or at least that's what it comes across as.

Anyway...

Serdjo just lost all of his remaining dignity. Wonder if he knows that we all remember him *lovingly*.

dark coder
22
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 00:32 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 00:36
Quote: "The FPSC guys are more artistically oriented, meaning they are all about the media (unless they are a bunch of lazy noobs), unlike you DB people, who work more on the programming, or at least that's what it comes across as."


What? That post is amazingly ignorant. If you've ever actually done any programming in your life... ever, You will know that game programming especially is like art in many ways, this of course doesn't mean any good programmer is an amazing artist but programming isn't all about pure logic. Programmers, especially indie game ones usually have a vision of a game in their heads, much like an artist would, and have to be able to program what they see in their heads. This can be very hard most of the time as there is usually never a clear cut way to implement an idea for, or in a game, so you must get creative to make it. Furthermore, if FPSC people are all about the media and are artistic why do you have over a dozen model packs? Surely with your awesome artistic talents you could make this by yourself? No?

I personally consider myself an artist as well as a programmer, as I'm quite versed in 2D/3D media creation and was before I ever became a programmer, if I hadn't then I doubt I'd be as good as I am now.

I occasionally peek around the FPSC forums too, and I very rarely see anything that impresses me(if ever), usually it's just some person who's just finished playing HL2 and wants to make the next best seller, downloads a few models makes a box room and makes a thread posting bmp screenshots. The same can be said for some DBP projects too, but at least it pretty much requires you to make everything from scratch, thus if anything DBP coders are more artistic.

gbark
19
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Joined: 14th Oct 2005
Location: US - Virginia
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 01:05
New island detected!

DBPro VS FPSC Battlegrounds! Better add it to the map tha_rami.
Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 02:55
You don't even know me dark coder, so shut up. It's not ignorant. I program. You're the ignorant one. There are so many fantastic FPSC'ers, you just haven't seen them. You've only seen the ones that use the model packs. I actually create 95% of my own media in my games, but you wouldn't know that, because you haven't seen my work, or a handful of other people's. If you would like me to link you to them, I could. And also, I'm not really an FPSC guy any more, I kinda' moved up.

Haha, good idea, gbark.

dark coder
22
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Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 03:08
Quote: "You've only seen the ones that use the model packs"


Well it's not like I selectively pick them, I just click on a random project and apparently I miss all the good ones.

Quote: "If you would like me to link you to them, I could."


Please do.

Quote: "I actually create 95% of my own media in my games, but you wouldn't know that, because you haven't seen my work, or a handful of other people's."


Maybe not, the only project I recall that didn't seem to use any stock media/model packs and had some creativity was the Big Hat Boy compo entry.

tha_rami
18
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Joined: 25th Mar 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 03:12
Actually I do think FPSC users are either 'quick newbs' or more media oriented. I actually think 90% of their forums revolves around bashing projects with stock media.


A mod has been erased by your signature because it was larger than 600x120
Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 03:12 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 03:13
Quote: "Well it's not like I selectively pick them, I just click on a random project and apparently I miss all the good ones."


Haha, must have bad luck then.

Demon Sun
Return to En Boca
Grave Danger
Eldora

Or click my sig.



Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 03:20 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 03:23
FPSC has brought many talented modelers to our forum that we didn't have before. Lots of people here can program but can't model. You're an exception to that dark coder. I consider myself to be one as well.

Quote: "Furthermore, if FPSC people are all about the media and are artistic why do you have over a dozen model packs? "


They have so many model packs because there are some amazing artists in the FPSC community that create them. Why doesn't DBP have model packs? Because we have fewer modelers capable of such a thing and because it's less commercially viable to create them for DBP. Based on some of the junk I've seen we damned sure need them. The advantage that FPSC gives us is that we're able to share the media created for FPSC in DBP. It's a win win situation and we wouldn't be able to without the FPSC guys. I've purchased several model packs and I'm very happy with what I've bought.

Since FPSC games don't have to be coded, the creators can focus on the media right away. Therefore FPSC games tend to be 'media oriented' as opposed to DBP games which tend to start off coding oriented. Geisha House started out as cubes moving around a plain. I wasn't able to make it pretty for a long time until after I'd started, and many DBP programmers never make it that far.


Come see the WIP!
Jeku
Moderator
21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 04:40
Well, I'm glad that the industry doesn't require programmers to be artists, and vice versa. It's completely normal to be good at one and awful at the other.

dark coder
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Location: Japan
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 05:24 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 05:36
Quote: "They have so many model packs because there are some amazing artists in the FPSC community that create them."


Other than the most recent packs I was under the impression TGC's modeller(simon I think?) made the media, as well as for DBC/DBP. I'd agree that it is more viable to make media for FPSC as weapons/entities/characters are all essentially preset things within the engine so you can't go wrong making them as they will work, but this isn't always the case with DBP.

Also Inspire I assumed you had never programmed due to the comment: "The FPSC guys are more artistically oriented, meaning they are all about the media (unless they are a bunch of lazy noobs), unlike you DB people" Because DBP projects usually take weeks or months to get to a WIP stage, so it's harder to have a storyline or idea that is really poor(as you have more time to refine it), but with FPSC it's quite easy because using stock media/model packs or downloaded third party stuff the time it takes to make a project is quite trivial.

As for the 4 game examples you posted, I played the two that had demos(Demon Sun and Grave Danger). The first thing I noticed in Demon Sun was the total lack of lighting(well... there was some), compared to other monitors I've owned in the past this is has a very high contrast and brightness and image quality, I even recently played DOOM3(which is usually very dark) as well as one of the parts in HL2 Episode one(with the zombies) without issues, however this game beats those in darkness as at points I had no clue what I was supposed to be doing despite the level being so short and fairly basic. At one point I was going up some stairs and it took me about 1 minute to find out that I could walk around the obstacle at the top because I couldn't see there was a gap. And the load times were quite high compared to the level sizes as mentioned above(my HDD is quite fast).

I then played Grave Danger, the first issue was when I clicked play after setting my options I thought my PC had froze as it wasn't doing anything, I figured the game was loading and left it for 2 mins and still nothing so I alt+tabbed to close the game and voila it started loading, strange. The main thing that stuck out visually to me was the total lack of lighting on the guns/enemies(I used maximum settings that I could for both demos), it looked specially strange on the enemies when placed in a dark areas. Another thing that really bugged me was the reload times of the main weapon, not to mention the animation was a bit strange(he seemed to be loading his weapon with thin air/two cloaked projectiles, and his hands appear to be able to pass through matter). The AI also amazed me, at one point I was happily shooting a few skeletons until more spawned so I clicked reload, and expecting to run away for 10mins while it reloaded I run up some stairs, one of the skeletons followed me and he too has this ability to pass through matter and seemingly walked through the stairs until he vanished, the skeleton then started bobbing up and down under the stairs which confused me so I just shot it as best as I could and progressed. After that I fell down a pit after shooting the floor, again I was ambushed and had to reload, but there was no where to go! I hid in a corner hoping to evade the enemies but when I looked at them they weren't moving, I continued to stand still and they just didn't do anything. Noticing I was low on ammo and that these skeletons didn't seem to move I just ran to the end of the level and only had to kill one as he was blacking the exit. This level was also short.

However the Eldora WIP does look nice, and shows some nice artwork. However with the lack of a demo I can't really comment on it, or the other game as screenshots tell a completely different story to the actual gameplay(especially with FPSC projects). On the other hand I can quite easily show you more than 4 DBC/DBP projects which have superior artwork(for the style), better use/ingame execution of the said artwork, have demos/full releases and have far less technical issues.

Benjamin
21
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Location: France
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 05:30
I think it's safe to say that most completed DBP games are of a reasonable quality, because the amount of effort required to code an entire game means you won't want to skimp on the contents of the game itself.

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Roxas
19
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Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 14:59
Quote: "New island detected!

DBPro VS FPSC Battlegrounds! Better add it to the map tha_rami. "


Tho.. That cannot be right! FPSC was made with DBPro... :/

And for me.. Only FPSC Project that had me interested is Eldora.. The other ones just look too default for me :/

Myself im more for Programming.. I understand that good looking artwork gets more views and comments than good coding and clumpy screenshots.
Eg. My Flare Engine thread is not hot thread and there rarely people comments on anything but i dont claim its good coded but still it kinda hurts that you code so hard and dont get any comments from people who then could say what to do better etc.. But still i just keep moving! I will get into quality stage someday..


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Inspire
17
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Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 22:14 Edited at: 8th Jan 2008 22:15
You can't blame those games, though. Both those "demos" you played are really old, and both of them were used to showcase level design (in Demon Sun's case) or media (with GraveDanger). I personally think Demon Sun looks fantastic, as well as GraveDanger. Hence the more "artistically oriented" aspect. The gameplay of FPSC game will never be that fantastic, the AI is horrendous, and the gameplay aspects are primitive, pretty much just run and shoot features. You can't really blame the FPSC user for the technical problems, that's the engine.


Quote: "On the other hand I can quite easily show you more than 4 DBC/DBP projects which have superior artwork(for the style), better use/ingame execution of the said artwork, have demos/full releases and have far less technical issues."


I'm sure you can. DarkBasic has been around far longer than FPSC, and in my opinion, people have just recently (within this past year or so) started to really develop good games with FPSC. Before that, it was just stock media / crappy custom media.

It just seems that the overall attitude of the DBP guys towards the FPSC'ers is negative, kinda thinking that they're inferior. At least that's what it's coming across as.



EDIT:

Quote: "Tho.. That cannot be right! FPSC was made with DBPro... :/"


Rebellion or something?

Pus In Boots
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Location: S.M.I.L.E. industries
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 22:28
Quote: "It just seems that the overall attitude of the DBP guys towards the FPSC'ers is negative, kinda thinking that they're inferior. At least that's what it's coming across as."


That sounds about right.

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Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 8th Jan 2008 23:42
Quote: "It just seems that the overall attitude of the DBP guys towards the FPSC'ers is negative, kinda thinking that they're inferior. At least that's what it's coming across as."

You must have your spam filter blocking my posts.


Come see the WIP!
Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 9th Jan 2008 01:36
Haha, no. I read what you said, and I appreciate it. Same with tha_rami. I'm talking about the DBP guys as a whole.

Benjamin
21
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Location: France
Posted: 9th Jan 2008 01:39
I resent that comment. Over and over again, but it appears the spam filter blocked it. In what way do you think us DBP coders think the FPSC users are inferior? Is it just based on skills?

Tempest (DBP/DBCe)
Multisync V1 (DBP/DBCe)
Inspire
17
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Joined: 23rd Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posted: 9th Jan 2008 02:38
No, just by your comments. I don't know, but all the FPSC'ers feel that way. Let's just drop it, I'm sick of arguing.

John H
Retired Moderator
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Location: Burlington, VT
Posted: 9th Jan 2008 09:24
You have forgotten my lair. The flying fortress started becoming a hassle as my flying machine is currently broken

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