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Geek Culture / Question for the game making bunch: How much for level design?

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 00:16
Hello gangsters

I been running a few calculations through my head recently for jokes and giggles, and wanted to see how other people think. I've done level design gigs in my free time during high school, and got a bit of pocket money out of it. I know there are folks out there who might work alone, or as part of a small team, so there are not many of you who have publishers giving you a budget.

My question is: What are people's expectations when it comes time to paying someone to do level design for your game/pr0n simulation? How much do people believe is fair for a hobbyist to pay another hobbyist to design something of X size for either a fixed fee, or design as much as needed at an hourly wage? And what would that wage be?

I realize people can just buy 3DWS and make their own things if they really wanted to, but lets pretend they'll be paying for semi-high quality design here.

To those few of you who are literate and read my post, thanks for reading.

Formerly known as Megaton Cat
SunnyKatt
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 02:04
Well, I would never hire somebody to design a level for me, I do that just fine. I think that If somebody designed a level for me, I wouldnt exactly feel like it was mine or had my style.
And if by some reason somebody designed a level for me, before I would give them a "window" that I would base pay off of, and based on how happy I am with it, give them the appropriate money.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 04:13
I'd pay you 50 bucks for a level consisting of 8-10 buildings.

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Silvester
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 09:41
Actually, It depends on the quality of the level. And how big it is. If its a simple small level, with no details whatsoever, the price would be alot lower. But when it is a highly detailed level, with alot of things placed in it and not just the bare-bones. The price would raise alot.

Digital Awakening
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 10:39
I think this really is up to size and tools available as well as the requirement for quality both in textures and models. Some games will be very easy to do maps for while others will require a lot of work. I have a hard time seeing anyone paying for level design unless they plan to actually sell the game.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 12:48
"25 dollars, and a good crack in the mouth, and we'll call it even, how's that sound?"

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 13:45
If I was making a FPS game then I'd want all the levels to be done by the same person, or team even - otherwise there would be no continuity. In that case, I'd probably expect to pay about £1500-£2000 for 10 levels (maybe 2-3 days spent on each level) - depending on funding. It is conceivable that a publisher would pay for good levels to be created, I doubt anyone has that sort of money just waiting to be spent on a hobby .

Or, I'd get some specialist models made and make levels like they do in the Battlefield games - like get a load of different models, buildings, busted vehicles, furniture, building blocks that can be easily re-used in a simple level editor.

Making big multi-purpose models might be a good idea if your looking for stuff to make and sell. Even if you got asked for a specific thing, having a similar model in your library would be pretty handy - say you make a hospital building, someone could then request a survival horror theme to it, then it would be a case of changing it to suit, or as is usually the case, splatter buckets of blood over the walls and floors, as if dying people have nothing better to do than bleed and wipe it all over the place.
If I was in the media creation game, then I'd probably do that, have a library of cheaper media that people can buy, then charge more for specific changes or original work.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 14:21
I don't think reusing the same hospital building is a good idea. Good level design is not about looks, it's about gameplay. I doubt a good modeler and a good level designer is the same person. Well, some games requires everything to be modeled (like God of War). If I payed for a level designer he would have to be skilled in creating well thought out levels with a good "flow" and a lot of fun. Of course it has to look good too, but good level design is hard to come by.

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 14:52 Edited at: 10th Jan 2008 14:54
Hmmm. In all honesty, I would say you shouldn't expect a hobbiest to pay you anything. Cash is an example of someone with intentions of publication and hopefully seeing some money, so it's perfectly reasonable for people who produce media for him to expect payment (and he does pay them!). That's not saying I think it's wrong to ask for money from someone who's releasing their game for free, it's just I think it's fine for a hobbiest to expect help for free.

The game dev hobby is all about working together for fun, and not for money. So you need to decide if you want to work "with" someone on a free indie game (i.e. for free and as a team), or work "for" people, providing a service. There's nothing wrong with either of those. However, if you want to provide a modeling service, then you should charge whatever you think your time is worth. I would charge £20/hour, probably. So would give people an estimate for the quality of model they were after. So I'd say 5 days per level (random figure for simplish levels), 7 hours a day, £700/level. You just have to calculate the value of your time and the time it'll take to finish the work.

(Edit: Not that I'd expect anyone to take me up on that offer, but that's what I'd charge! )


Raven
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 15:22
I'd suggest before anyone decides to put down someone who wishes to do Environment Design & Production; they should check out:

Minerva (Half-Life 2 Mod)
Gears of War
Dino Crisis
and
Portal

Environments play a much bigger part in the overall feel and quality of a game than has ever been given credit for.
I doubt many if any independant/hobbyist developers from here would pay for such a service because I doubt they release how important environments are.

Mod communities on the other hand often pay extremely well for freelance work.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jan 2008 15:27 Edited at: 10th Jan 2008 15:27
For hobbyists, I probably wouldn't pay anything, unless I was feeling nice because it's a hobby, they don't do it to gain anything but self satisfaction - though I'm sure hobbyists would find it nice to get paid for something and if I had the money to give I'd be fair. So for a good quality 'level' I'd probably pay £20.

I probably wouldn't actually pay a level designer, though my level design isn't the best in the world, I'm a very DIY person (probably why I've had so many unsuccessful projects), it took me a long time to accept any kind of help in game making.

But I'm a hobbyist myself, I don't do any of this sort of stuff for money - I don't want to make a game to get money, I do it because I enjoy the process. I don't make 3D gfx tutorials for money, I do it for free (though most of them aren't quite up to scratch) and I haven't offered people help hoping for something in return.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 04:14 Edited at: 14th Jan 2008 04:16
Thanks for the feedback. There are different kinds of level design gigs that people may come to you for. From years of browsing the WIP boards, I am well aware that quality level design is something very few here do well. That's not even including textures.

There are many sole coders who request a level that they can use for their demo for their character to run around in. There are small teams who may actually need only a bit of work done for a particular area.

Anyway, I was interested in the rates. People usually mis estimate the amount of hours that goes into creating, say, and indoor level. They will offer payment that when divided by the hours, would equal $2/hour. So obviously making money on the side as a hobbyist level designer can be tricky sometimes.

I'm kinda interested in getting back into the game, as I feel I have enough experience to create a really complete, sweet ass level from concept to finish. Unfortunately getting a chance to do work for someone is nearly impossible.

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DrewG
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 04:23
Then go to TurboSquid. Sell your "high" quality levels there.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 05:31 Edited at: 14th Jan 2008 05:32
DrewG, you should start a Life & Relationships advice column. It'd be a colossal hit.

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DrewG
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 06:03
Of course it would be, everything I do/say are colossal hits. Probably because I'm American.


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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 06:26 Edited at: 14th Jan 2008 06:34
I think that I'm different than most people around here, game making is my 'hobby', but I can't justify having it as a hobby unless 1) I'm good at it, and 2) I can make some money off of it. It takes so much time to pursue it with any seriousness. The bottom line for me is whether or not I finish a game, if I invest time into something and don't finish it then I've effectively wasted my time.

One thing that continues to surprise me is that although many DBP coders can't model to save their lives they would never buy models from another person. Some people even get angry when someone posts here trying to sell their stuff. This serves to reduce the amount of opportunities we have to acquire such media. For some reason DBP game makers think that they are entitled to make games for free. All this does is drive away all the artists who tire of bad programmers getting pointless free media.

Though I'm willing to pay I can't really pay what it's worth if it's a personal project. Remember that space station we talked about a year ago? I estimate that would have taken around 40 hours to complete. At a rate of $40 an hour that would come out to a cool $1600. I couldn't pay that though, I'd expect to pay $400 which comes out to $10(US) an hour. Not the worst, but not what the work is actually worth.

If you want to do this professionally you've got to whore yourself out a bit for a while. If someone is willing to pay then $10 an hour is probably the magic number. You also need to expand your customer base to include other game making communities. Make one bad assed mini level and give it to each community for free and offer your services. That's exactly what Psionic did with animated models and it worked.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 06:39
Heh, for me it is a hobby and I simply can't afford anything. I'll have to prey for free stuff.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 07:05 Edited at: 14th Jan 2008 07:05
The funny thing is, I might just have to work for $10 an hour to start out. Look at it this way, I work a sh*tty sales associate job at a huge retail store for $10/h. The job itself is "suck".

Now for the same $10/h I could be doing work that I

a) Enjoy
b) Can use as a stepping stool to get more work, as well as a portfolio addition

That'd probably have to do as a starting rate. Though realistically, I'd probably price myself at $15/h, as I wouldn't really work for minimum wage.

I remember having a similar discussion on a graphicdesign forum that I'm a regular at, where freelancers mentioned charging clients the wage they think they can pay. Some would charge a standard rate, and often double that rate when they get requests from medium-large businesses. I know where many hobbyists/indie's stand on a financial level, so I can usually pin point the right price.

edit: stupid forum put slashes everywhere in my post because of bad language.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 07:33
I'm sure you're paying taxes, though. So far the IRS hasn't noticed what I do with Paypal


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 08:08
Yeah, but I get it all back at the end of the year because I make under a certain amount.

You should see what some freelanceers I know are getting away with though.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 08:15
Freelancing is good . I just hope they never find out my actual income, though. That'd ruin my year.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 16:08
Quote: "Now for the same $10/h"


Well, you'd have to charge at least 20/hr after taxes. You won't get it all back, you've got to pay social security, and if you get a lot of money doing this, you won't be getting a free ride on the tax bus.

Really this type of work should be at least 30/hr. And you won't get a whole lot of money doing indi work here. You'd have to find a project that has some real funding.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 16:53
Again, I don't get taxed through PayPal, as I have a separate source of income that I declare. If you're making 60k a year, and not telling the government where you're getting all that, then in that case it's a different story.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 17:15
Quote: "Again, I don't get taxed through PayPal, as I have a separate source of income that I declare. If you're making 60k a year, and not telling the government where you're getting all that, then in that case it's a different story."


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David R
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 19:08
Quote: "Then go to TurboSquid. Sell your "high" quality levels there.
"


Whoa Drew, that's actually surprisingly intelligent of you to slip that comment in there. A rude, idiotic comment coming from you... how unexpected


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 20:20
Quote: "Of course it would be, everything I do/say are colossal hits. Probably because I'm American."

Here's an idea... instead of doing anything and everything you can think of to get a lifetime ban, you could simply stop coming to TGC and save the mods a whole heck of a lot of time. I might not always agree with Aikicat, but to say he's anything less than one of the best artists on TGC isn't just an insult to him, it's an insult to this community. If you can't be respectful of people here, and if you can't control your keyboard tourettes, I strongly suggest you go annoy your friends on your Navy Seals forums before Rich delivers you another Barbie Enema.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 14th Jan 2008 20:38
Quote: "If you can't be respectful of people here, and if you can't control your keyboard tourettes, I strongly suggest you go annoy your friends on your Navy Seals forums before Rich delivers you another Barbie Enema."

Lol, pwned, and I agree DrewG, I don't think I've ever seen an intelligent and/or nice/unsarcastic post from you.

If you paid someone, do you think it'd be best to pay half up front and half at the end? Or pay all at once? What would be the best method?


Megaton Cat
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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 17:46 Edited at: 15th Jan 2008 17:52
Quote: "When the hammer comes down on you, you let us know"


You do realize that I don't make even nearly close enough to the amount that I should be making before anyone turns an eye?

Hey, and I appreciate that Matt...!

Quote: "If you paid someone, do you think it'd be best to pay half up front and half at the end? Or pay all at once? What would be the best method?"


If it's a large project, typically take half up front. If it's for someone I know (and like), I often do concepts for free to see if they like it.

Formerly known as Megaton Cat
Luciferia
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Posted: 15th Jan 2008 17:49 Edited at: 15th Jan 2008 17:50
I think it depends on what you want. If you want a standard corridor level then not much but it you want great big wide natural looking environments with varying difficulties then considerably more.
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 16th Jan 2008 13:11
Quote: "and if you can't control your keyboard tourettes"

Haha, DrewG has Finger Tourettes

Quote: "When the hammer comes down on you, you let us know"

Do you think that the IRS will notice my pool full of bikini models and my limo that's full of smoke? Nah, I'm safe.


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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 16th Jan 2008 16:54
Not to mention the several pillows filled with cocaine that Cash sleeps on. With his bikini models.

Formerly known as Megaton Cat
DrewG
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Posted: 16th Jan 2008 17:09 Edited at: 16th Jan 2008 17:10
Hey, I was being serious, turbosquid is a great website...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourettes_%28band%29


Thanks to BigAdd for the signature!

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