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Geek Culture / New computer logging I wasn't aware of used by police!

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GatorHex
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 08:11 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 08:38
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I know Windows has some hidden log files that record everything you get up to on the internet and Intel made CPUs with a unique ID so you can be identified, but I just heard on the news that they can tell a suspected murder wasn't at his computer at the time of the murder because the hard drive was idle at the time!

WTF! There is a hidden log on wether your hard drive is use now?!

If you are realy paranoid about the loss of you civil liberites you better not Google "FBI CIPAV" (Computer and Internet Protocol Address Verifier) which seems to give the FBI back door access to you PC

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 08:18
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Well I guess its one of those things you have to look at and say, "Well I know they won't need to look for those log files on my computer." as you don't intend to ever do anything wrong. But it still makes me pretty angry that they have to do this stuff.

It's just more and more control, more and more surveillance and more and more loss of privacy.

Er...

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DrewG
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 08:49
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Excuse me Mr. Dink, but exactly what would you need certain privacy for in what you do on the internet?

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GatorHex
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 08:58
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Europe has always suspected that the the US Echelon electronic surveillance system has given advantage to US business. There is an uneasyness in Europe that CPUs, Software and Search engines are mostly american designed.

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Grandma
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 10:34
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Hmmm, haven't heard about this before...

Quote: "Excuse me Mr. Dink, but exactly what would you need certain privacy for in what you do on the internet?"


Noone has the right to know about Mr. Dink's shoe fetish, there could be alot of things some people would like to keep private. Doesn't necessarily mean it's something illegal. It's very uncomfortable knowing someone is "tapping in", and looking at what you do.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 11:07 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 11:29
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According to some, there have been "call home" dll's in windows since the first version of NT. funny thing tho, back then they had names that included "nsa", and I dont think the calling was to Microsoft. I dont know why any of this stuff is surprising to anyone. If you research the histories of these companies, and the family lineages of a lot of these company owners etc, you'd see that we really are "swaying to the rythm of the new world order"

now pardon me, I have to get back to watching Fix News tell me that Ron Paul doesnt pwn, and that the Iranians are preparing to attack the 5 US carrier battle groups in the persian gulf, with speed boats, and the laws of physics can be suspended for a day in september...

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David R
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 11:20
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Quote: "but I just heard on the news that they can tell a suspected murder wasn't at his computer at the time of the murder because the hard drive was idle at the time!"


Don't quite get how that's anything to do specifically with the HD;
Surely they can tell by file access times rather than logging every piece of data? Most systems log a file access time, and since files used to start up must be accessed, you can work out when the machine started up.

And Windows does definitely log shutdown events in the system log, so you could easily work out the time span between start up access -> shutdown in log (not to mention the act of logging on is also logged)


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 11:26 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 11:26
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Vista

Quote: "
American Heritage Dictionary
vis·ta [vĭs'tə] n.

a) A distant view or prospect, especially one seen through an opening, as between rows of buildings or trees.

b) An avenue or other passage affording such a view.
"


lol

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 12:42 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 12:47
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Quote: "Excuse me Mr. Dink, but exactly what would you need certain privacy for in what you do on the internet? "


People have the right to privacy, people don't want their personal life to be recorded and they'd rather things to be less of a police state. I mean you could have surveillance cameras in your room, but hey what kind of thing would you be doing that needs privacy? Nothing illegal I hope...but they would still want their privacy. Just because it makes the police's job easier doesn't make it right.

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SirFire
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 13:55
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Let's just be glad the world ends in 3 years and 11 months. We won't have to put up with this crap anymore.

(preemptive explanation: google dec 21, 2012 or dec 23, 2012)

I've laughed at all the doomsday prophecies except this one, it's a humdinger.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 14:26
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Privacy is overrated. Do I care if some electronic system is monitoring me? No. Why would I? If being passively monitored can result in a single terrorist or child molester being caught then I'm all for it.


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Grandma
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 14:29 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 14:30
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@ SirFire

Yes, well, i laugh at that one too.

So the mayan calendar will end. Suddenly the universe halts? Everything grinds to a stop? How will it end, exactly?

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 14:35 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 14:36
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Your face is leaked onto international television.

The world ending thing is utter nonsense.

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 14:39
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WARNING:
This thread is one of those that is probably doomed to be locked. While it is a relevant topic because it is "geeky", it is one of those subjects that are prone to start (and has already started) breaking the AUP.

For your reference:
Quote: "3.8 Debate about any form of pro or anti government sentiments, irrespective of which government"


Please keep it clean!
Thanks!


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 15:52
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I'd be happy for terrorists to be caught and children to be saved, but one thing I don't want is for the police or government to know too much about our individual lives, surveillance is good - but I don't think it should be over done, a compromise in the middle is good - I suppose internet surveillance to some extent is a good thing for increasing the likelihood of catching criminals.

But the more data stored on us means the more we have to trust our data is secure and that those who have seen or hold our data are to be trusted, even if I feel a little bit awkward about people reading something I'd rather not have read. But it'd be nice to know what data is recorded and what kind of people are to access them, if any police officer is allowed to look, I wouldn't be happy. I'd expect extreme security measures to be delivered, so that not even the most powerful person in the country can just 'look' at them, rather a system and requirements to surround them.

Log files on a personal computer, I reckon could be hacked, which isn't exactly that secure. Thus a whole issue with privacy.

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Mr Tank
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 16:53
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How does one get rid of crap like this? I imagine there'd be websites or programs for this. Fortunately for me, my sexual preferences are fairly mainstream, so i don't have a selfish worry about the police state just yet. It's more the principle of the thing.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 17:02 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 17:02
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You say that until the people with not so mainstream sexual preferences take over

Just kidding. Anyways, you can't turn off timestamps on your files, it's pretty tightly integrated. You are out of luck

If you have absolutely no need for any of your files to have valid timestamps, there's probably some way to shut it off through the registry.

But every system out there, including linux and windows uses timestamps on files. Fedora (I'm sure ubuntu too) actually records when the file name itself was last viewed, doesn't even necessarily need to be accessed. I'm sure windows does something similar too.


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 18:58
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Quote: "Excuse me Mr. Dink, but exactly what would you need certain privacy for in what you do on the internet? "


I have nothing to hide. Anyhow it's not that I do or do not. It's the fact that nobody else has any business knowing what I do in my personal life. Why would you want some corporation or organizationa knowing everything you do? How can anyobe be comfortable with that... This is where my favorite quote comes in...

Quote: " People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both"


It really can't be said any better than that.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 19:20
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Quote: "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both"

Ive seen this in one form or another over the years, and its attributed to Benjamin Franklin. He was a nut job, but this quote couldnt be more true.

The notion of "I have nothing to hide so therefore I dont mind being monitored" (or to that effect) is so devoid of logic that it hurts. Its that type of thinking that got us here to the precipice.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 19:30
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It's actually not a Franklin quote. He did include it in one of his publishings though. They think it's originally from some guy named Jackson. I don't remember his first name though.

Quote: "The notion of "I have nothing to hide so therefore I dont mind being monitored" (or to that effect) is so devoid of logic that it hurts. Its that type of thinking that got us here to the precipice."


Indeed.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 20:26
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Indeed. Giving up our privacy means more things can be used against us, it may sound paranoid or absurd - but when you give away more of your privacy the more likely it'll fall into the wrong hands. With our activities recorded on our computers is one of those things - somebody can hack my computer and obtain information I don't want them to have.

But then the question about terrorists, well it'd be easy to catch a terrorist with complete surveillance, cameras in our hours, people monitoring our every move...but we'd have no freedom - I mean even if you're not doing anything you should be, you go around with a paranoid thought that something happens by accident or somebody on the other end misinterprets your actions(When I used Internet Explorer 5, I clicked on a link and it redirected to a website that downloading an illegal pron program, that I had to reinstall Windows to remove, accidents like that happen on the net)

So the question is, how much freedom are we willing to give up for security?

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 20:43
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Next thing we'll hear is that we are being watched through our webcams and it's been happening for years. I already know it's not impossible. My webcam either stays unplugged or I put the privacy visor over the lens. Not because I'm doing anything wrong, but because people have no business looking into my house without my permission.

I'm sure you'd all object if everyone had a watchman living in their home making sure they don't do something illegal or whatever. You wouldn't be comfortable. Why is this any different?

MISoft Studios - Silver-Dawn

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 21:12
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Quote: "There is a hidden log on wether your hard drive is use now?!"

You can make a program to make a file, then delete it, and run that process in an infinite loop until you hit escape, or close it. The hard drive would be in use, right?

Besides, the writing to the log file would mean the hard drive is in use, so if the file isn't written to, then the hard drive isn't in use (supposedly) or it's idle. From my view on it anyways.

Cheers,

-naota

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Keo C
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 21:18
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Quote: "Next thing we'll hear is that we are being watched through our webcams and it's been happening for years."

I got to stop dancing in front of it.

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n008
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 21:31 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 21:32
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LOL

This makes me want to get rid of my XP partition RIGHT NOW. :o

And just go Linux ONLY.

*Unplugs Webcam*

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Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 21:47
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I never understood the whole obsession over privacy. Why the heck would you care if they knew when your hard drive was active if you didn't do anything wrong? If you were doing something wrong, then it helps catch you faster. Same thing with camera recording, eavesdropping, etc. I just don't see why people care if they are not doing anything wrong.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 21:55
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Quote: "if you didn't do anything wrong?"


Depends on your definition of wrong. I recall after 9/11 about utility workers who go into homes, if they saw an anti-american book or something laying about, they were asked to notify the authorities.

Now, think about someone checking in on your computer usage without you knowing about it. What if they saw you were reading something they didn't like? It gives them a good reason to dig further, which actually did happen to my brother, as I've said before. He was visited when my Mother just happened to not be present, and was questioned. (Nothing came of it).

What if they make it illegal to do something you like, say, playing Manhunt (example). You download it illegally, and the police find out. You're looking at a federal offense.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:02 Edited at: 11th Jan 2008 22:12
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I certainly wouldn't give up complete privacy just for the sake of capturing felons.

Quote: "Why the heck would you care if they knew when your hard drive was active if you didn't do anything wrong?"

You think the only reason people want privacy is so that no one knows when they do something wrong?

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:04
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THEY KNOW WHERE I LIVE


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:14
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Reminds me of a Henry Rollins story, he almost got into trouble for carrying a book into Australia called 'Jihad'.

And yes, what if I started joking around with someone about something completely politically incorrect (which I've done many times) would it not in a time of crisis be a question of suspicion if somebody saw it?

I mean tha_rami made a joke threat to me the other day that could easily be misinterpreted if it wasn't between us (and apparently with security measures it wasn't) and over MSN I and other people do this all the time - because we find OTT political correctness a topic to joke around with.

Jerico pointed out nicely, a piece of data that could be interpreted as someting suspicious then when need be it'll be used as evidence and if you're being investigated for a crime you didn't commit based on your own opinions would not look good, especially if it's a big crime and your least favourite tabloid journalist is standing there with a pen and paper and a camera. Of course I am talking about a possibility, I know it's unlikely, but I'm trying to say, anything gathered from your private moments can be used against you, even if you've done nothing wrong, or an accident that's trivial (like click on a link that redirects to something illegal.)

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Grandma
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:41
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Sorry, i couldn't resist.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 22:45
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It looks like it's looking at its reflection in depression. '*sigh* It's been hard catching any more thieves since they put that there, and my boss ain't too happy, *sigh* looks like I'm gonna lose my job...how am I going to tell my wife?'

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RalphY
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:03
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It's not just a question about not wanting people knowing what your doing, it's also about trusting the people who are collecting and handling your data. Surely some of you must of heard of the fact that the UK government recently lost 25 million child benefit records holding private data because they thought it would be a good idea to send said data burnt on to a CD through the post?

The more private data collected the more chance it can be lost, stolen or sold which can lead to bad things. I'm sure there are a few people on this forum I could blackmail if I had there internet browsing history (you know who you are ).

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:05
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Quote: "I'm sure there are a few people on this forum I could blackmail if I had there internet browsing history (you know who you are )."

Nice to know that we can all trust who are friends are, isn't it


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RalphY
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:08
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come now INH, we all know you have been blackmailing Seppuku Arts for months now!

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Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:09
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Actually, it was Grandma and his large collection of penguin weapons that I've been blackmailing. Seppuku's on my side now.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:41
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Quote: "come now INH, we all know you have been blackmailing Seppuku Arts for months now!"


Notice how he's no longer 'Insert Brain Here' but 'your highness'.

He's a clever little moose that INH, I mean, his highness, though I'd watch out where you surf with this one...I mean he found out about my Paris Hilton videos...whoops. I mean 'unmentionable content'.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th Jan 2008 23:56
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Well, isn't it obvious that backdoors are patched into Windows? Why else would it be so inefficient and constantly flooded with unavoidable "updates" that make little or no difference besides slowdown?


Since the other one was scaring you guys so much...
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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 00:08 Edited at: 12th Jan 2008 00:09
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Maybe I've missed something in the original post, but this has absolutely nothing to do with backdoors or 'holes' at all; I presume that what the original article (which GatorHex cited) was referring to was the forensics that could take place upon the hard drive, not their ability to remotely access it via the net etc.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 00:37
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Pwnd

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=205602931


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dfujis the rocker
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 07:28
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Ah, if only George Orwell were here...He'd probably say "I told you so!"
This is really disturbing, the police have done weird things before but now this is just absurd. Each 'precautionary measure' they take is one step towards totalitarianism. Not to be anarchist but the people are so blinded by paranoia that they're letting the threat at home take root, and that is the worst type of threat.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 09:21
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I value my privacy. Period. Whether I'm doing good or bad, I don't really care. I should be 'free' to do anything I want within the law in my own house without being monitored. If there's any reason to believe I'm doing something evil, then turn on surveillance. If that's too late, that's too late.

Although the example in this thread is kinda stupid. This is internal logging, for your own use, not accessible unless the computer is confiscated (which means you've done something bad) - thus a good thing.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 16:10
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Quote: "Although the example in this thread is kinda stupid. This is internal logging, for your own use, not accessible unless the computer is confiscated (which means you've done something bad) - thus a good thing."


Agreed. I think the example in this thread is that Windows may have something built in to allow people to access your computer without your knowledge. (Unlikely, but I suppose possible).

I use Linux, so I'm not too concerned.


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David R
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 16:18 Edited at: 12th Jan 2008 16:18
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Quote: "Although the example in this thread is kinda stupid. This is internal logging"


Indeed - and in fact, it may not even be that. If they confiscate the actual HD, they can forensically get a lot of information merely from the physical state of the drive (e.g. drive heads etc.)


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Eevil Weevil
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 16:37
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Yeah, lol, I'm paranoid about those sorts of stuff, so every time my computer boots it runs a program that wipes 'My Recent Documents' & my History.

Impossible? Anything is impossible. 48'6F'77'20'64'61'72'65'20'79'6F'75'20'77'6F'72'6B'20'6F'75'74'20'6D'79'20'73'69'67'21

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tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 17:17
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Paranoid? You mean your parents use the same User Account?


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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 18:34
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I suppose there's two sides of the coin. On one, our privacy is potentially being invaded. On the other, this is what has put paedophiles and terrorists away. I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing that the government could look at what I'm doing any time I'm logged in to a computer, but I suppose it's for the greater good. Besides, it's not like they read every e-mail that's sent,etc.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Jan 2008 18:47
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Quote: "I suppose there's two sides of the coin. On one, our privacy is potentially being invaded. On the other, this is what has put paedophiles and terrorists away. I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing that the government could look at what I'm doing any time I'm logged in to a computer, but I suppose it's for the greater good. Besides, it's not like they read every e-mail that's sent,etc."


Well they potentially could, just using keywords to filter it. For example, the government monitors all international phone calls, listening in on the ones that contain keywords, like "bomb".

That said, I think they have better things to do than log into your computer to see what's on it.


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dfujis the rocker
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Posted: 13th Jan 2008 04:16
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this is a violation of the bill of rights, really

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Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 13th Jan 2008 04:39 Edited at: 13th Jan 2008 04:42
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Quote: "it's not like they read every e-mail that's sent"


The only way to make sure that people don't read your e-mails is to set up your own server and have a dedicated ISP and Internet backbone plus some kind of super-enigma-hide-my-butt-off encryption. If your e-mail is hosted, your host can see it. If your ISP isn't dedicated or owned by you, they can see it. If you use any existing Internet backbones, Government can see it. There is no way out of the fact that someone can see whatever your doing on the Internet if they wanted to.

Quote: "I value my privacy. Period. Whether I'm doing good or bad, I don't really care. I should be 'free' to do anything I want within the law in my own house without being monitored. If there's any reason to believe I'm doing something evil, then turn on surveillance. If that's too late, that's too late."


Best statement I heard all day. You get a .

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I hope nobody plans on taking my harddrive [b]out of my computer. I don't think more then half the planet will stand the explosion and even if it does, the whole planet's getting sucked in the black hole anyway.

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