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Geek Culture / Watching things determines if they work?

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Plystire
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 12:08
Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

That is so weird!!!


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Grandma
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 12:44
I can swear on my grandma's grave that this has been posted here in geek culture before. Still interesting stuff though.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 15:24
It obviously wouldn't be a camera observing it. The device itself must directly affect it to get information on where it was going. It's not as if the electron was conciously aware of whether it was being watched or not

I dont know about electrons, but the same effect happens with photons, because they are still particles but instead of being made of matter they are made of waves.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 16:07
...

I dunno about anybody else, but particles 'knowing' when someone is watching is absurd? That video didn't make much sense to me after the waves, it a) Doesn't explain a logical reason why they came to that conclusion or what could be doing it b) it seems like a silly conclusion (and also sound like a an assumption, rather than a scientific explanation)


Also, to contradict myself, I know for a fact thinking particles exist! It's a module in Cinema 4D.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 16:16 Edited at: 4th Feb 2008 16:18
I think the idea is that the particle is aware it is being observed, at least insomuch as an inanimate object can.

Think Schroedinger's Cat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat


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Venge
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 16:24
But the idea that a subatomic particle is aware it's being watched is absurd...That video seemed like it was trying to explain quantum mechanics to a child, with the cartoony characters and the "camera" portrayed as a giant eye...The way they observe the electrons obviously can't be a simple camera. The electrons are affected by the camera's examination method, not the fact that it's "watching".

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 16:29 Edited at: 4th Feb 2008 16:34
Yes, but how can it be possible? Isn't a subatomic particle inanimate? Thus it can't have an 'awarness', if it were to be logical then maybe an eye ball has telekinetic powers or the mind becomes dillusional when sub atomic particles are being fired. Is there some sort of magnatism involved? I don't get how an inanimate object can be aware or even appear aware. Perhaps a only a mere GCSE in Science where physics was your weak point isn't a good standing point, but I'm trying to see it.

As for Schroedinger's Cat, I'll look at the one later, I had a lecture this morning and I have some work to do in a minute, so brain needs rest from reading.

[edit]

Posted at the same time as Venge. That's possibly a true point, I kind of expected it to make logical sense, even if it is for children (though from what I remember of physics as a child, this sort of thing is a little much, we had fun with newton meters, batteries, waves etc. as kids, not quantum physics)...but then why the particles do that isn't explained to us adults. Perhaps if anyone would do the honours of explaining it to someone of less intelligence in this area of knowledge. Cheers.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 16:55
This guy discusses that it's not human observation, which I agree wouldn't make sense. Unfortunately he doesn't elaborate why it "collapses" the waveform.

http://infophilia.blogspot.com/2007/05/quantum-mechanics-for-dummies-2.html


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 17:46
Quantum mechanic for dummers, sounds useful, might take a read on that - at least then I can preach it to people to make myself sound intelligent.

People probably have said this before, but isn't Quantum mechanics a post term for 'watchmaker'.

Anyway, this is another article I'll look at later.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 17:56
I started reading that article (well the article preceding the one you linked me to - the one the writer recommended read first) it sort of makes sense...I've only read a little, but what's happening is the same principle as what happens with light, so the particle is capable of acting like a wave and a particle, as this article says light does. But I'm going to say, the looking at it has something to do with light...but I won't jump to conclusions yet, I'll need to finish both articles first.

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IanG
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 18:25
everything in quantum mechanics is said to have a wavelength, so you can treat it as a wave. When a single electron is fired through the slit there is a probability that the electron has hit different points, but the interesting part is that a single electron seems to interfere with itself. Quantum mechanics is heavily placed within probabilities.

As to the appearance of the electron knowing someone is watching. An electron is energy, when an electron is travelling, like in the experiment, it does not emit anything - no light is produced, nothing. So how the hell do you know its there, well you put a small device in to remove some of the electrons from the flow passing through the slits - but this "collapses the wave function" as electrons have been removed and they can not interfere with each other - as ones which would have interfered with the ones which have been removed can't interfere with them. If that makes sense.

Just on a side note, Einstein created quantum mechanics and then spent his entire career after it trying to dis-prove it. There's a lecturer at Exeter uni, i forget his name, but he opened a lecture on quantum mechanics with "i dont understand quantum mechanics, and anyone who says they do is an arrogant prat" and to be honest, his right.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 18:45
Quote: " "i dont understand quantum mechanics, and anyone who says they do is an arrogant prat" and to be honest, his right.

"



That makes me feel a whole lot better about it.


So I may ask..why would there be a kids program explaining quantum mechanics? Isn't that a little crazy, you'll have little arrogant prats running around saying 'I know quantum mechanics' and you know how annoying little kids can be when they think they're smart...imagine what the parents would have to deal with.

Nevertheless. whether true/accurate or not - from beginning to read that article, it's another interesting aspect of knowledge worth exploring.

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Jeff032
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 20:25 Edited at: 4th Feb 2008 20:25
IanG
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 20:57 Edited at: 4th Feb 2008 21:04
Quote: "So I may ask..why would there be a kids program explaining quantum mechanics? Isn't that a little crazy, you'll have little arrogant prats running around saying 'I know quantum mechanics' and you know how annoying little kids can be when they think they're smart...imagine what the parents would have to deal with."

im not sure whether it is definetly directed towards kids, but i do see your point on that - and the video only scratches the surface

Quote: "Nevertheless. whether true/accurate or not - from beginning to read that article, it's another interesting aspect of knowledge worth exploring."

yeah it is interesting - because every object has a wavelength, you walking through a door (or any other gap) actually means you diffract, becoming slightly larger, but from what i can remember its only around the size of an atom - ill see whether i can find my notes from last year for it

on a side note - this is a picture i took whilst at Birmingham Uni, its basically the same experiment but using light(so a slightly larger scale) - this picture is using just two slits, i do have the same experiment but using four and five slits, which produces some interesting results which arent too disimlar


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 21:32 Edited at: 4th Feb 2008 21:33
Damn, I wish I took Quantum Mechanics...perhaps for an MA. No I'd probably fail, especially when there's mathematics fail (I'm better with language, writing and history), theory I'd do good at, everything else would go straight over my head (which is why I only got a C at A Level Psychology, I could do the theory, but it was the E in research methods that brought the grade down)

That lecture sounds interesting, it would be something interesting to research into, unfortunately none of my projects relate to this, unless I can apply Quantum Physics to neanderthals, Mesopotamians or Cuneiform.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 22:26
Isn't it true that on quantum mechanic level, nothing has a state until measured in any way? (ie. Schrodingers Cat?)


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Libervurto
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Posted: 4th Feb 2008 23:16
maybe particles do have awareness?
maybe they are alive!
It's such a strange idea it wouldn't surprise me

Maybe they are changing their state constantly and it is just the split second that we measure them in that defines them?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 00:39
The proton says to the electron, 'oh do try and be more positive!'


Sorry for the cliche.

But like any good subatomic particle relation, they split because the electron is dating another proton.

Sorry, I'll stop with the bad jokes/puns, I'll return later with something intelligent to say.

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Venge
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 01:04
Quote: "Sorry, I'll stop with the bad jokes/puns"


Two hydrogens were walking down the street. One says to the other "I think I lost an electron!"
The other asks, "Are you sure?"
The first says, "I'm positive!"

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 01:19
At CERN they do a special offer on particles.
Buy a Proton and an Electron and you get a neutron free of Charge!

Osiris
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 01:22
Quote: "But the idea that a subatomic particle is aware it's being watched is absurd..."


Well then, whats you theory?

Also, its not that absurd, no one know what affects sub atomic particles yet. The biggest enemy of science is knowledge.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 02:39
Quote: "Doesn't explain a logical reason why they came to that conclusion or what could be doing it"


That's because as far as I know they don't yet know *why* it seems to do things differently if it's observed. It's fascinating and still largely unknown why this behaviour occurs.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong. That cartoon accurately portrays the double slit experiment.


WarGoat
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 04:27
quantum mechanics are really something. A particle can be in two differents places at the same time, and I think I remember something about doing all the possible ways of going to point A to point B at the same time or something like that. I think too that I read that they can "comunicate" betwenn them to do something (not sure about the comunication thing, maybe it's sjust something that came out of my head...). Anyway, if what I said is true, then it don't chance my first statement: "quantum mechanics are really something".

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Dr Schnitzengruber
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 04:29
The electron doesn't know when it is observed but it does know when it is being changed and in order to observe something you must change it. You can not see a box in the middle of a dark room until you turn on the lights but the lights heat up the box slightly. When you observe a electron, energy is being shot at the electron to see the result.(like the lightbulbs light is hitting the box) The little shot of energy is enough to move the electron to either side and make a double band. It is not like when you see a electron, it decides to go to either side but instead, if you have anything affecting the electron(such as light or a laser) the electron goes to either side.

Jeff032
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 04:31 Edited at: 5th Feb 2008 04:33
It seems accurate, but there is more interesting stuff in the link I posted above.

They split a photon into two photons with a longer wavelength, and those photons are 'entangled', meaning that if one is polarized along the x axis, the other is polarized along the y axis no matter what you do to them. Lets call one 'p', and one 's'

1) So when they have 'p' photons hitting a detector, and 's' photons going through the 2 slits and hitting another detector slightly afterwords, the 's' photons form the interference pattern.


2) You stick a special crystal which polarizes the light in front of each of the two slits (both crystals polarize light a different way). You can detect the polarization of 'p' when it hits the detector first (and therefore find the polarization of 's' because of entanglement), and you can find the polarization of 's' afterwords when it has passed through the crystal and hit its detector.

Using the before polarization and the after polarization, you can find out which slit 's' went through. It does not produce an interference pattern.


3) You stick a piece of the polarizing crystal in front of the other photon's detector ('p'), so that it becomes impossible to determine which slit the photon passes through, and the photon produces the interference pattern.


So if you can determine which slit it passes through, it only passes through one slit. Yet if it is impossible for you to determine which slit it goes through, then it goes through both slits simultaneously because both possibilities exist. Wow this is crazy .

So yeah...something like that, and more...

[EDIT]
(quarter wave plates = polarizing crystal thingy)
Quote: "In case you might be suspicious of the quarter wave plates, it is worth noting that given a beam of light incident on a double slit, changing the polarization of the light has no effect whatsoever on the interference pattern. The pattern will remain the same for an x polarized beam, a y polarized beam, a left or a right circularly polarized beam. "


Plystire
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 09:17 Edited at: 5th Feb 2008 09:17
One reason scientists believe that an electron can interfere with itself is through the discovery of the antielectron, or positron.

Antiparticles

Recently though (I read this in a book, can't remember the name of it, I'll have to go get it from my friend again) scientists found that every particle can actually BECOME more than one particle for an almost INSTANTANEOUS amount of time. They actually recorded an electron "splitting" into two electrons but the second was gone within a matter of less than a picosecond.

Truly fascinating stuff. And yet, I'm glad I chose a major in something other than this, lol. I have enough troubles trying to grasp the concept of bombarding a silicon plate with electrons to produce an impure silicon crystal comprised of phospherous atoms that would allow it to behave as a semiconductor.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Feb 2008 09:42
Quote: "Well then, whats you theory?

Also, its not that absurd, no one know what affects sub atomic particles yet. The biggest enemy of science is knowledge."


Well, to have an 'awareness' surely that would require some kind of consciousness, I can't see how a particle would be alive. My theory? I don't have one, but because I don't have one, it doesn't mean that another theory makes sense to me. Of course the video didn't make a detailed enough explaination on the theory for me, so I have begun to read up upon Quantum Mechanics to see why they came to that conclusion, and from there, I'll see if my conviction still stands.



Quote: "That's because as far as I know they don't yet know *why* it seems to do things differently if it's observed. It's fascinating and still largely unknown why this behaviour occurs.

Of course, correct me if I'm wrong. That cartoon accurately portrays the double slit experiment."


I see, in that case 'awareness' is a bit of an early conclusion, unless of course they're using the word figuratively, though it just didn't seem to sound figurative to me. As for the cartoon, it probably does portray it accurately, but for someone questioning the theory or somebody who is confused by it, then it really doesn't explain enough - which is fair enough, hence we have Quantum Mechanics for Dummies.

So, lemme read that articles all the way through, and I'll see what I think - but still I lack the time to read them, I'm just about to go to two lectures, so I'll respond later.

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Plystire
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 07:26
Well, I just learned in my class tonight that NOTHING is a particle and that NOTHING is a wave.

Go figure, right?

It turns out that everything (at it's most basic level) is a "wave-particle".

Wave-Particle Duality

In the experiment that I originally posted, I'm going to make the assumption (And it's not a very big assumption) that by introducing the electron-microscope (to view the electron entering the slits), it interacts with the electron via it's electromagnetic field (produced by any electronic nowadays), thus hindering the experiment and introducing new factors into the outcome!

As the famous scientist who first proposed the idea that everything in the universe was made up of TINY building blocks, so tiny that you can't see them, once said, "Prove me wrong!"


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Jeff032
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 13:16
No electron microscope in the experiment I read about...

Plystire
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 15:43
Then I would love to know what method they used to "watch" it go through the slit.


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IanG
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 16:31
Quote: "No electron microscope in the experiment I read about..."

chances are it wouldn't be an electron microscope as they use electrons to either tunnel through a material or to bounce off it - in either case it would be useless as you would fire an electron towards the electron in the experiment and they would both repel due to them having the same charge (like to north pole's of a magnet being thrown together) causing them both to go in different directions (most likely both would carry on in the same direction as the electron that was fired by the microscope as it would require the least change in acceleration)

instead you would probably have to measure the electron's presence by an uncharged particle or wave - like x-rays, the use of neutrons would also not work as if a head on collision did occur then the electron would be thrown off course

Quote: "Well, I just learned in my class tonight that NOTHING is a particle and that NOTHING is a wave."

here's something else that people don't realise - energy is mass and mass is energy linked together by Einstein's most famous equation E=mc^2 though to be more precise its E^2=m^2 c^4 + p^2 c^4 as the simplified version assumes the mass is still and does not have any momentum(p)

Einstein also came up with the whole wave particle duality (or at least the majority of it) and from when he did to the end of his life he tried to find an alternative way of explaining it - as he thought he was wrong.

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Plystire
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 17:11
@IanG:

Yes, good point about the microscope. I did not have a very good understanding of how they really worked, to be honest. I only knew that they were used to view very small objects, lol.

About Einstein. Yes, he was a nutter... but a smart nutter at that.

Scientists for centuries now have all come to the same conclusion and so the theory has been widely accepted. For those that have tried to disprove it... well, let's just say they could have used their time more wisely. lol


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Plystire
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Posted: 7th Feb 2008 18:29
I compiled a play-list of an 8-part presentation on this subject, and it goes VERY in-depth into the history and previous experiments relating to the Double Slit.

I found this extremely interesting, and, I believe it was in video 6, this presentation just threw my theory out the window.

8-Part Double Slit Experiment Presentation

Enjoy, guys!


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