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DarkBASIC Discussion / Second thoughts

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DB newbie
19
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Joined: 13th Nov 2005
Location: um..... i dont remember.
Posted: 12th Feb 2008 05:51
ok guys i need some help, im having second thoughts about getting DBpro, i just dont really want to leave DBC because thats what i satrted with, eventhough DBpro has so much more to offer...can u guys help me with my dilema?

thanks


Come see the WIP!

TDK
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 12th Feb 2008 07:49
To me, there's only one reason to dump DBC and move up to DBP - when you get to the stage where you need to do something that you simply can't do with DBC.

Whether it's the fact that there's so much going on that despite your best attempts at optimizing it still runs at a snail's pace, or you now have no choice but to use shaders, whatever that reason is, it's your choice.

TDK_Man

KISTech
17
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Location: Aloha, Oregon
Posted: 12th Feb 2008 17:46
Like so many things, it depends on what YOU need.

For the project you're wanting to do, does DBC meet the requirements to your satisfaction?

Does DBPro meet the requirements better?

How much cash can you part with? (ie, do you also need DarkPhysics and DarkAI?)

You're the only one that can answer those questions.

I'm here starting to use DBPro because I've spent the last year trying to make the Torque Gaming Engine do what I need for my current project, and it's just not capable of doing it. I've already seen two games made with DBPro that do what I'm looking for, so that is what motivated my purchase.


Don't think, just code.
Libervurto
18
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Location: On Toast
Posted: 12th Feb 2008 19:17
I very nearly bought DBP recently and then Latch pointed out that I never do anything in 3D!
So I am going to master the DBC 3D commands before I move on. Since DBC and DBP use almost the same commands there would be no point in me upgrading yet.

TDK
Retired Moderator
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Location: UK
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 00:03
I find it quite amusing the number of newcomers who appear here with questions on how to get this and that to work with their RPG's, MMORPG's and FPS games with DBC.

It's quite obvious they don't have a damn clue what they are doing at all. Their programs are totally lacking in structure, have no indentation, use Goto's everywhere and are written so badly it's a crime.

So you point them to tutorials and tell them not to be so ambitious, learn the basics first and start simple - using 2D only at first. Move up to 3D when they have an understanding of 2D and game logic programming - how writing a game actually works.

They totally ignore every single piece of advice you give them and the next thing you see is they are posting the same type of question on the DBPro boards!

It's as though they think that DBC is the reason they can't program properly rather than themselves, and that using DBP is magically going to solve all their problems.

You can write crap in DBPro as well as DBC - it just crashes quicker!

Before anyone starts shouting "are you talking about me", ask yourself this.

What completed program (or programs) have you written in DBC which took it to the very limit of what it can do? So much in fact that you had to upgrade to DBPro so you could do what you couldn't do in DBC...

Considering that DBC can do this it's clear that after many, many years of using DBC (and owning DBP), even I am nowhere near reaching the limits of what DBC can do.

I appreciate that the above game uses add-on dll's, but it proves that DBC has the speed for such games and if we wrote something only 1% as good as that it would be very impressive.

Finally, let me assure you that I'm not anti-DBPro. I just think that if you bought DBC first then you should use it to learn as much as you possibly can and take it to it's absolute limits before you pay more money to upgrade.

TDK_Man

Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 00:17 Edited at: 13th Feb 2008 00:18
@TDK
Quote: "You can write crap in DBPro as well as DBC - it just crashes quicker!"

Haha, that's a sig quote right there!
As you said you have been using DBC for years and you are nowhere near mastering it, you don't have to completely master DBC before you upgrade to DBP.

I think those who expect DBP to "make them" better programmers will be very disappointed. Unfortunately there is no magic quick-fix to making games, many times I've wanted to quickly make a game and play it, but it's simply impossible (unless you make a very simple game). DBP wont make the development process any quicker, in fact it probably makes it longer. My advice is when you want to make something quickly work on game ideas and do some creative stuff, then when you're more relaxed you can code it

Ed222
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Location: Calgary
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 00:21
one more thing if you get used to the dbc controls then move to dbp things get really confusing not to metion making exes

Windows Is better than everything
Latch
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 01:06
About 1000 years ago there was a computer called the Commodore 64. Everyone knew it had potential for it's day. No one really understood just how much until clever programmers started doing things with it that it "just wasn't supposed to be able to do."

Natively, it had a maximum of 8 sprites that could be displayed at once. There really wasn't a way around this because there was a specific amount of memory for the sprites (called sprite registers I think) that couldn't be changed. You couldn't add memory, and you couldn't reduce memory (well that part is actually another story). Then one day, someone said : "Well, the screen redraws itself at a certain speed. Each time a raster line is drawn (a single line across the screen) why don't I change the sprites that are displayed to something else and at other locations on the screen? Hmm that will give the illusion of there being more sprites than this machine is supposed to be able to handle!" And Voila! Suddenly the C64 could display many more than 8 sprites and a new programming technique was developed.

Anyway, the C64 was just an 8 bit machine but surprisingly, you can still find it in use today. There are even servers and webpages that run off of a C64. The whole point is, people found ways to make it work for them in manners that hadn't even been conceived of when it was built.

Is it worth it to you to shell out the cash and upgrade to DBPro, or are you one that can figure out how to "display more sprites?" with DBC?

Enjoy your day.
tha_rami
19
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Location: Netherlands
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 03:13
If you're wondering about getting DBPro, get it. Unless you're dedicated to using DBC and using all its power (as Bizar Guy does with Dream, zzz does with Soulhunter and SFSW does with Evochron Renegades), you're better off at DBPro with all the fancy thingies simply done. I like DBC, and I think I'll keep using it until its really outdated. Not yet. Not yet.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 03:34
I think Latch has a good point; the majority of us are hobbyists, we all enjoy the problem solving side of programming. If you want to upgrade to DBP because it has more features why not upgrade to high-end professional applications? Because they cost a bomb and it would take some of the fun out of programming.
I have recently been programming on my casio calculator, it is extremely limited (about 15 years old) but that is fun because I have to be clever to squeeze out something good.

LBFN
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Location: USA
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 03:50
I have both DBC and DBP. To be candid, I didn't like DBP at first; it just had a different 'feel' than DBC. I, like you, enjoyed coding with DBC and was reluctant to put it down for something new and different. Then one day, I blew the dust off of DBP, got 'Hands On DB PRo', and got serious about learning it. I am glad I did. I now enjoy writing games with DBP and it is indeed more powerful than DBC. That said, I still code with DBC on occasion.

Rather than try to squeeze more out of DBC, I would rather use DBP to do it. If you like the challenge of getting more out of DBC, then I would suggest you hold on to your money. If not, I would get DBP.

LB
TDK
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 05:24
Quote: "If you like the challenge of getting more out of DBC, then I would suggest you hold on to your money. If not, I would get DBP."


Agreed, but the important word you used was 'more'.

My point was essentially that a lot of new users don't even scratch the surface with DBC. In many cases they don't even try.

How many have said - "Look at what I've done with DBC. I can't take it any further so I'm moving up to DBP"? Absolutely none that I can think of - the majority having only churned out a handful of poorly written non-working programs. No full games or anything remotely like it...

They are told that DBPro is better by other DBPro users (which obviously it is) and they just have to have it - instead of working with DBC improving their programming skills until they reached a stage where they could actually benefit from the advanced features it offers.

But, at the end of the day, it's their money and their choice. I just don't like to see anyone spend their hard-earned cash on something they are really not ready for yet.

TDK_Man

DB newbie
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Location: um..... i dont remember.
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 05:27
ok i did it...i bought DBpro, thanks for all the help... i still plan on using DBC though...i have iton my laptop for those long trips were i can go coding crazy.


Come see the WIP!

Zombie 20
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Joined: 26th Nov 2006
Location: Etters, PA
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 06:44
I personally love DBC, its very fun, though I don't get to code very much at all as I am out of a computer. But, all you have to do is look at those top projects and you'll know right away how powerful it is, i don't really intend to get dbp, I know I have a long fun road ahead of me in the classic version first.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
LBFN
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 11:56
DB newbie

Good luck to you. As you know, this forum is very helpful to those that are willing to search for, learn and apply coding techniques. I think this is especially true with DBP.

Oh, and you might want to change your forum name at some point. hehe

LB
tha_rami
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Location: Netherlands
Posted: 13th Feb 2008 16:07
TDK, you'd be delighted to meet Bizar Guy.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 13th Feb 2008 17:35
I don't think DBP is such a big leap, it is basically a better version of DBC, the good thing is there is no cut off point; you can make just as basic programs with DBP as you can with DBC.
Good luck with DBP Newbie (your name is quite ironic considering TDK's point )

Zeus
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Location: Atop Mount Olympus
Posted: 21st Feb 2008 13:43
I use DBP for making stuff like Blue apps and DBC to make everything else. DBC in my opinion is the easiest.


Formerely Cool Guy Jordan
jason p sage
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Location: Ellington, CT USA
Posted: 21st Feb 2008 17:53
Hmmm....

If the Quandry is DBC versus DBPro - Spend or Not Spend - Let's mix it up a little - and Toss DarkGDK into the mix! For the hobby person - who makes free games anyways - Give it a Shot! If you want to sell a game $500!

Speed Wise - Its blows the doors off both DBClassic and DBPro!

I had one of those c64 computers - and I did Raster Interrupt coding all the Time (The trick allows alot more than just showing more then 8 sprites - multiple fonts - Split Screen Modes - Top Text - bottom GFX etc... not to mention some crazy stuff we used to do to make the grfx seem to go off the screen to the left and right via these horizontal lines - color changing trick with sin waves and stuff - made for some awesome Demos - and Game splash Screens - Music etc.


And no one whine about how advanced C++ is - yeah - its harder - but you won't regret it if you stick it out - as its applicable to a lot more than games...

I was 14,15,16 years old at the time (c64 times) - and I learned the C64 BAsic and then moved on to assembly language to get the REAL SPEED increase.

You have the Same option - sorta - want speed - power - learn something really applicable to alot of things programming related?

DarkGDK + C++ and a good C++ primer [href]www.cplusplus.com/docs/tutorial/[/href]

Oh yeah - you knows its free for hobby usage right? That should make the choice easier. At least look at it!

Otherwise - I'm with TDK - Unless you're stuck or simply want to have User Defined Types and other features - its your cash - go for it.

I love all the TGC languages - but as of late - I'm enjoying DarkGDK.. but it did take a bit to get going - and if you don't care about writing "Good" code like TDK eluded ...not eluded...said point blank "Most don't listen" ... then forget it.

You want to eventually turn pro... Scope it out.

Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Feb 2008 22:38 Edited at: 21st Feb 2008 22:39
I was just thinking; how can one tell when one HAS gotten everything out of DBC?
If speed is the issue maybe one's coding is just bad?
Is there anything one can't do in DBC, even if one has to design it oneself?

Ha all those "one" sound funny but I didn't want anyone replying with "Whatchoo sayin bout ma code??? You aint even seen ma code!!!"

TDK
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Posted: 23rd Feb 2008 03:06
Yes - speed is an issue.

I'm already getting complaints about Ultimate Pong running slow on some machines. But you can only optimize so much...

I'm now using Sparky's collision in it and tidied quite a bit of the code up but at the end of the day, even though I had to slow it down for my machine, you can't make other people's old slow machines run any faster by optimizing your code.

I would use Static objects (which are supposed to be faster) but it won't run if I use them!

I'll just have to see how the new version runs on other people's machines when I upload it later on.

Shaders you can't do in DBS. You don't have UDT's in DBC either - or other variable types apart from integers, floats and strings, but then again you don't really need them.

Advanced Terrains would be nice, but as you can load .X file terrains you can get around that too.

So, all in all, I guess the biggest problem to get around is the fact that you don't need many objects or sprites on screen in DBC before you start to see a severe drop in framerate... unless you do some clever programming.

The version of Ultimate Pong I'm using never drops below 60 fps and is nice and smooth onmy machine - even with all the objects I'm using for the fake reflections.

TDK_Man

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