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Geek Culture / Free PS3 development engine!

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Zappo
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 03:42 Edited at: 24th Feb 2008 03:44
I know there was mention in another thread about XNA and how development might be done on the PS3 using Linux but I have just found this announced at GDC08 and thought it warranted its own thread.

Sony have just announced that they are releasing a new FREE graphics engine for cross platform development called the PhyreEngine. Its designed to let developers use a PC environment to create their games, which everyone will be more familiar with. Then they just recompile for the PS3 and its ready to go. Even better is that it supports both OpenGL and Direct3D so can be used to develop games for the 360. You get 70+ samples, full source code and artwork of sample game templates and it works with Maya and Max exporters, and Havok and Ageia physics. Unknown to most is that it has already been used for the games DiRT, flOw and GripShift.

This should benefit games players who have PC, 360 or PS3 machines. It will also benefit smaller games developers who can't afford the currently expensive PS3 SDK kits, so they just need to purchase a PS3 debug system for $1200. It should also hopefully help stop any games developed primarily for the 360 then poorly converted for the PS3.

I don't know if this will be free to the general public or what other software is required as its not yet released, but I will certainly be keeping an eye on it. I think its safe to say it won't be competing with DarkBasic
All the current details from the GDC PSN session are here:
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/02/21/gdc08-phyreengine-sonys-new-free-cross-platform-engine/


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Libervurto
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 03:58
Awesome!
Quote: "Even better is that it supports both OpenGL and Direct3D so can be used to develop games for the 360."

does that mean development times will be cut in half?

I hope this is open to the public, I'd love to try something and see how freaking hard it is

Raven
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 05:07
Saw info on this a couple of days ago (and knew about it's development for the past 6months atleast), it's yet to really inspire though.

Something that is cool, is it does support MacOSX not just Windows; but a flip-side is if it is anything like the full version of this that was released to developers in the PS3 SDK, then it is very far from being the easiest thing to use.

Personally I think developers best choice right now is Renderware or Unreal Engine 3.0 for their Multiplatform needs; something many top-end developers also seem to believe.

I mean you can argue that this will only cost $1,200 (which btw in-case any of you wonder, here in the UK it's still £1,100 not £750 like the exchange rate would suggest ), but then again that's only for PS3 development.

A debug Xbox 360 will set you back £250 for the same basic package that Sony also provide.

The Xbox 360 XDK is cross-platform compatible with Windows technologies; and is also free. In order to get access to either you must first register and have your concepts accepted; oh and then there is the little matter that both require a title license fee when you wish to release.

XNA is still the cheapest multi-platform system available, and while no this doesn't support Playstation 3; you've always got Unreal Tournament 3 and the user modding allowed with that if you need some engine.

Not to mention Graphics are just one aspect of game dev, which is all Phyre (or this version anywho) provides. Networking, Input, Sound, etc... they're all just as important aspects.

I mean it's cool Sony are finally thinking of the little developers but to be honest, it's still cheaper for them to multiplatform to Microsoft platforms. Just not a sound decision to support the PS3 just yet, not without a large enough install-base that is showing it is willing to purchase more through the Playstation Store.

Any of you see the arguments in the posts below it; it's always funny watching people who have NEVER programmed these systems arguing about what Wikipedia says.

I think the funniest was them all saying that a PowerPC Processor has HyperThreading. I mean let's just back-up for a second right... we have a technology developed by Intel for a CISC processor, a technology that relies entirely upon the CISC nature of the Pentium Processor and has yet to be successfully converted by Intel to their Core Processor lines; we're to believe that this technology has somehow miriculously without some huge licensing deal, been integrated in to an IBM PowerPC Processor; which happens to be RISC in nature and actually completely incapable of performaning HyperThreading due to the simple fact it would require an additional cycle to calculate the data needed something that would completely undermine the whole point IN HyperThreading.

Not to mention that HyperThreading is not the same as additional threads, but more a consolidation of registers per loop; which would be a pretty neat trick on a PowerPC.

Also I have a feeling that even Wikipedia didn't miss the words;
IBM PowerPC 64-bit 3 Cores @ 3.2GHz, 2 Hardware Threads Per Core

Keyword has been highlighted, in-case any here miss it.
Just though I'd point it out is all, as I'm sure you guys have all heard my arguments about the actual power between the processors of these machines.

Someone waiting for some PS3 game that will just be so gob-smackingly beautiful that the 360 can't achieve; to be honest will be sorely disappointed. Fact right now isn't that developers are doing lack-luster ports from the 360 to the PS3, but that quite frankly they both handle about the same stuff - end of really.

From what I've heard, the Playstation 3 version of a title is often done first as it is more difficult to convert and engine at the same speed to the PS3 than it is from it.

This is going to do something for Sony though, either it will reinvigorate their 3rd party developers to come back and port to their system; or it'll show them that they were saving their money by not going for the expensive option.

Right now Sony are grasping at straw as far as developers are conserned; which hours after they originally announced this, it was reported on a few sites (and BBC News 24) that the BluRay format despite winning against HD-DVD may not survive itself.

Sony have a very tough year ahead of them, and I don't give a damn what analysts say; this will be the year that makes or breaks Sony. You can count on it, they're still hemoraging money; and the announcement they made last week about the new 120GB PS3 is on the way, with no backward-compatibility announcements for PS2 software. It's just not helping, not unless they can really fortify their AAA title line-up.

Alright it's not a case that Sony only have enough games that you can count them on one hand; but they're still barely in to double figures. Within a year of release the 360 had roughly 100 titles available, the PS3 barely has 25. I mean jesus I have more 360 games on my shelf than that.

They could really cash in by opening up the PS2 library, especially if it was added to the new PSP play'n'walk crap they're adding to the XMB; but they're constantly dropping the ball.

Seriously who the hell cares even if Sony weren't lying out of their arses about the performance capabilities of the PS3; when there are sod all titles to still keep people from getting bored crapless??

Hell, I'd be just as pissed of having bought a new computer if Windows Vista has ZERO backward compatibility. Why? Cause it'd mean that I'd only have 7 games available to play from the new "Games for Windows" line, and one of them would be Shadowrun with another being Witcher.

Those two games alone almost put me of playing Windows games all together!

Jeku
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 07:24
Yes, I was excited to read about this a few days ago... that is until the $1200 price tag came up. And just when I thought Sony really was catering to all those who were on the fence about XNA. If Sony would have released the tools and allowed people to use their existing PS3s, then this would be great news. The average hobby developer is not going to shell out $1200, unless there's a chance of getting something back. Will this mean Sony will look at indie games made with these tools for future PSN promotion? That would make the price tag worth it... maybe.


Zombie 20
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 12:25
1200$ *whistles* Well, I'm out, though it did sound really cool.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 12:53
Well I suppose it's always a cool free PC game dev engine. Except I don't have the hardware, but it might be cool looking at when I do.

Exit Pursued by man-bear-pig
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 18:16
£600, maybe not. Students can get the XNA creators club for free through Microsoft Dreamspark, and really students are the leading producers of indie games. So why would we bother forking out £600 for just a fancy graphics engine.

???
Zappo
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Posted: 24th Feb 2008 23:44
You only have to pay the $1200 if you want the PS3 debug kit. You can develop without it and still run it on the PC. Its not designed for hobbyists but for developers who want/need to keep budgets down. If hobbyists did end up using it they would not be able to release games themselves anyway so I would suggest they wrote it for the PC and then approached a publisher/developer who would use their setup to sort out the PS3 side.

XNA isn't aimed at the same audience of 'proper' developers. XNA really is aimed at hobby programmers. Plus, it only supports Windows and the 360. If you develop in that you have no route to developing for the PS3 or anything else. Licensing the Unreal Engine 3 is very expensive (apparently $750,000 for one platform plus $100,000 for additional platforms) and you would still need a debug machine at the very least. Its not suitable for all types of game either. The Renderware license costs are not public which would suggest that too is megabucks. Raven, you seem to go off on a rant about processors then so I stopped reading.

If you are an independent developer who wants to put their game ideas out on as many platforms as possible then I see this as a godsend.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Jeku
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Posted: 25th Feb 2008 01:24 Edited at: 25th Feb 2008 01:25
Quote: "If you are an independent developer who wants to put their game ideas out on as many platforms as possible then I see this as a godsend."


Most indie developers don't have PS3 debug or test kits at their disposal, unless they're guaranteed to have a publishing deal.

Let's see how this all pans out for PC games though. If it's really as easy as they say, and a simple recompile is all that's needed to get their games running on a PS3, that will be very interesting.

As of now, I'd still recommend anyone here to stick with XNA as it's free for PC development, and you can use an easier language (C#).


david w
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Posted: 25th Feb 2008 04:26
What make C# easier than C++ I just dont get it?
Raven
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Posted: 26th Feb 2008 00:05
Quote: "XNA isn't aimed at the same audience of 'proper' developers. XNA really is aimed at hobby programmers. Plus, it only supports Windows and the 360. If you develop in that you have no route to developing for the PS3 or anything else."


XNA isn't aimed at hobbyiests as much, I mean yeah Microsoft are trying to raise the profile in that direction; for it to be the "bedroom programmers choice"

At the end of the day though it's just a .NET version of DirectX; they've simply rebranded it and expanded to the 360. There are a few of the budget and AAA developers currently using it for XBLA titles; although I've not heard of any using it for full titles.

Microsoft as-of-yet (but they will) haven't provided an actual industry equivilant of the APIs; with full system access. A beauty of the system though even once it does make it for the full XDK (which I have a feeling is what the next release in March will include) is that even retail units can run the developer code.

So cuts quite a bit of the costs down, even still though the full XDK and hardware costs the same as this budget option for the PS3.
The only really appealing aspect is the whole "multi-platform" stuff; and as I said I think this is a bid to try to stop developers making hash-jobs at porting to the PS3.

Quote: " Licensing the Unreal Engine 3 is very expensive (apparently $750,000 for one platform plus $100,000 for additional platforms) and you would still need a debug machine at the very least. Its not suitable for all types of game either. The Renderware license costs are not public which would suggest that too is megabucks. Raven, you seem to go off on a rant about processors then so I stopped reading."


That would be surprising given RoboBlitz came from a small company that couldn't afford that who are their own publishers; using the Unreal 3 engine on Xbox 360, Windows PC (via Steam and their own publishing system) and I believe there is also a PS3 version either already on Playstation Store or comming.

They've done some good business.

Zappo
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Posted: 26th Feb 2008 02:02 Edited at: 26th Feb 2008 02:06
I played a demo of that RoboBlitz a while ago. In fact, it was the first thing I downloaded when I got my new laptop to test out the graphics card. To be honest I didn't really like it but its scored great in reviews, its got great physics and its quite funny to play.
Naked Sky (the people behind it) have been going since 2002 and have quite an interesting story as to how it was developed. At the end of 2004 they were asked by Intel to make a physics based game demo which would be bundled with and showcase their new dual core processor. Shortly after Microsoft okayed them as Xbox 360 developers and asked them to make something for Live Arcade. They turned their tech demo into the first Xbox 360 Live Arcade game to use the Unreal Engine 3.
They are corporate partners with Epic so I am guessing when the game went commercial they got a huge discount off the engine price and some money pumped in from their other corporate partners which include Intel, Microsoft and Valve. They now develop for the Wii, 360, PS3 and PC so aren't small any more. Sounds like an indi developer that has made good - always nice to hear.
There is a great interview and look around their premises here:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/16447.html
(Make sure you watch the second part too).
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/16413.html

Sorry if this has gone a little off topic.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
Numlock
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Posted: 26th Feb 2008 19:02
Oh wow, this looks like a promising project. I'm going to keep up with it. I could put something like this to good use.

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