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Geek Culture / apples "g5" a 64 bit pc ownage monster

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indi
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 09:34
Omg I have a new toy to save up for.


$2,999.00 US

Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
1GHz frontside bus
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem


Check out its performance

http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 12:35 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 16:34
A very expensive PC beater...
...The problem is getting software (which is very hard and expensive.)

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 12:53
hahaa (^_^) 1Ghz FSB, what a waste of time when the Ram is limited to 400Mhz & AGP8x is still limited to a 4.1Gb/sec Bandwidth (sorry but someone had to say it)

Also why put in ATI Radeons when GeForce cards have specific perfomance boosters for the PowerPC Processor, seems stupid as the GeForce on the Mac runs rings around everything else
that and you notice how they pitted thier 64-bit processor against the Intel 32-Bit Equivilants (where's the Itainium on that list or the Optiron? )

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
Eric T
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 12:56 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 12:57
nothin more special then my gaming pc, sept mines runnin Red hat, not that pathetic Mac Os X .

*(and mines not a pathetic apple haha) (apple ain't good for aything but music recording studios, if there even good for that)*

snootchie bootchies- Jay from Jay and Silent Bob
empty
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:19 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 16:20
Quote: "
apple ain't good for aything but music recording studios, if there even good for that
"

There's nothing better for that

Ogres have layers.
Rob K
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:25
"that and you notice how they pitted thier 64-bit processor against the Intel 32-Bit Equivilants (where's the Itainium on that list or the Optiron? )"

Plus they disabled a lot of possible Intel optimisations, such as hyperthreading. The tests although weighted weren't that unfair, although neither system was running the optimum setup it could have been.

I think Apple overstepped the mark as far as price is concerned though. How on earth do they expect to increase their market share if their top-of-the-range machine is twice as expensive as similiarly specced PCs.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:34
As I keep saying, it is one of Apples problems - you pay more for less...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:46
not really... you'd be lucky to get a Dual Xeon 2.0Ghz system for the same amount with similar setup, $1,200 each those processors. Intel ripps everyone off.

atleast the Optiron 2.0Ghz processors are gonna be a respectable $580, still way more expensive than would be hoped for - but alot faster and cheaper than the Intel option.

i'm wondering how this new C4 64-Bit processor will fair, as Via took the Optiron technology from AMD and stripped it down the bare essentials for a 1.0Ghz Processor (that still doesn't need a fan which i'm impressed at) should be good for the market to have some healthy 64bit competition

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 16:57 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 16:59
Well, you dont get much graphics memory, and the size of the hard drive is somewhat small..
And its a real pain getting software (and its very expensive).

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 18:55
i guess, but still for what it is ... $3k is still not to bad a deal
though the fact that to have all that power and bugger all software - personally don't see the point, only reason for it would be games playing ... whens the last time you saw a Mac game release?

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 19:23 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 20:07
I never have in the shops. Its strange really - PC World sell Mac's, but very little software for it...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 19:28
to be honest the only place i've ever seen software for it was in a second hand shop in Apsley (which is like 10 shops & houses and they called it a village lol)

i know that games like Quake3 work on them though...

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
8truths
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 21:28
Did you see Apple is going to cave on the G6 and go over to an intel platform? Hmm... OSX is based on BSD . . . Is this going to be a step toward cross-platform computing? Certainly, it should make Mac emulation a lot easier.

MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 22:57
really ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 23:12
good question!

Web Design Starting from $200. Special limited offer. MSN or Email me for more information.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 23:38
If they are, then there is certainly no point getting Apple computers.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 23:42
LMAO... FreeBSD and asking for cross-platforming, thats like asking a russian who learnt german if it'll make much of a difference working in england

sorry but Unix is hardly known for its unlimited selection of games, if Mac seriously want to compete they need to get a Windows license and make the compatibility there.

I mean AmigaOS XL already has full Windows & DirectX intergration and also is specifically designed for PPC use (any lightbulbs going yet?)
personally i think Mac are just idiots who have been lucky to survive as long as they have ... if they drop the PPC for an x86 or ia64 well then quite frankly you can say goodbye to macintosh.
The only people who still buy these machines are companies who don't know any better and hardcore fans, if you loose the hardcore fan market by becomming a traitor (and they will label any move to Intel Standards treturous) then quite frankly it's as good as signing thier own death certificate isn't it?

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
MrTAToad
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Posted: 28th Jun 2003 23:44 Edited at: 28th Jun 2003 23:46
The only reason they have survived for so long was because Bill Gates gave them a bit of money, what, 10 years ago ? They were pretty near backruptcy at the time, if I remember correctly...

It helped having the iMac, of course, but even so, I think their sales are pretty slow.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:13
Raven -- have you ever run any Mac emus?

None of them can support the PowerPC with just code.

The reason the switch to Intel will be a big step in cross-platform is because it removes the big hurdle to modern Mac emulation: Motorola machine code.

Now, with it running Intel machine code, the big "huh?" is removed.

Also, since BSD/Linux/UNIX are all running on Intel platforms, and Windows emulation on those is improving, it offers some hope.

Puffy
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:22
o_O Indi... why not wait a bit for the Opteron... with backtracking... =P''''' oh yes O_O you can have up to 16 I think... 24 gigs of ram... liquid cooling ... waste of money... o_O

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:25
BTW -- Apple has survived because of the publishing industry.

Go get a publishing job and see how many of them use Windows! None, except for really small companies that cannot afford to shell out for hardware and support on an Apple scale.

The fact is, Windows color profiles are shit. If you want the closest thing to print output on your screen, dude, you're getting a Mac.

The flip side is, no other software except production software and a few major gaming titles, are ever released for Apple.

MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:32
I doubt the publishing industry will buy computers on a yearly basis, in order to keep Apple in business...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
Puffy
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:37
8truths... o_O you could just get a gforcefx5900 and a nice plasma or flatpanel display... O_O I just bought myself one the other day... =P Its a 19" 500:1 contrast LCD with digital... and get this... .297mm pitch.... YAY...

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:39
Buying cycles are now 6 years (essentially because PIIs are the oldest computers that will run decently).

If your business is buying large numbers of new computers every year, you're not going to be in business for long, or you make enough money you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.

Publishing is the only industry clearly dominated by Apple. Therefore, it is safe to call them a bastion of Apple's tiny castle.

MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 03:49
..which isn't really very heathly for Apple.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 07:32
I dunno. I'm a believer that serving a defined, small niche is better than being numero uno. A lot of companies have their day in the sun, then disappear forever.

Let's bear in mind that the 2-3% of people who use Apples are planning on having them at the Apocalypse. Windows users, on the other hand, are practically clamoring for the first OS that runs all MS software, and will jump ship if a dependable OS can run all their stuff.

Why do you think MS has declared open season on Linux? Because the Windows emulators for Linux are getting good, and the desktops now looking nice. The first easy-to-use Linux desktop that has 95% or better Windows compatibility will have a strong influence in the market. MS knows that day is near, and is using the whole SCO thing as a cause for war, because it is already discouraging Linux adoption.

indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 10:56
at the end of the day I know what works 3 times faster for the role i need it to perform.

Commercial Work in print is the big one followed by video editing and audio composition and editing.

I dont want to buy the latest pc to wait 21 minutes to open a 600 meg psd file. I rather wait for 7 minutes only thanks.

and you ask me why I want a mac? duh..

Apple Motorola and IBM have all gone to bed to make this risc series of chips a long time ago.

Ive never seen a professional studio in my lifetime that runs alone on pcs.

If your into games sure buy a pc or a loungeroom box.

If you want a productive machine with grunt and your in some real professions I know what i will take any day.

Most video editing suites dont have a chunky pc to edit the data on.
Its usually a websphere or a huge mac.

All of the movies I have heard of being produced have never been made on a pc.

You say that apple will switch over to the end of the x86 architecture. I find that impoosibly hard to believe.

You will find x86 architecture is way past its use by date, I think you will see a change the other way.

Im happy in the fact I have great experience in more than one type of computer platform. I see the good and bad points more clearly than a pc driven bedroom banger.

lol the pc games kids have spoken.
Im still not convinced tho.

MrTAToad
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 12:48
As I said elsewhere, I dont believe that Apple will be able to last that much longer - either they'll be bankrupt in around 5 years or they will go solely into selling online music...

The PowerPC processor are very fine things - just a shame that Apple doesn't know how to sell computers.

The reason Microsoft want to kill Linux is because its free - and thats all. For every person moving over to Linux, Microsoft could stand to lose around £200

Linux could be a Microsoft beater if it became more stable and user-friendly.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 12:55
is the production of lindows still going also?

indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 12:57
Computers are a great tax deduction in business either paid for by renting or bought outright in my country anyway.

42% depreciation deduction annum. if bought outright
100% tax deduction if rented.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 13:11
Quote: "Raven -- have you ever run any Mac emus?
None of them can support the PowerPC with just code"


no because emulators just don't work... this would be the point in using AmigaOS XL - it doesn't emulate anything, they bought up the rights to Microsoft/Unix/MacOS technologies and redeveloped each specifically to add PPC to thier setup, so rather than being emulated thier being run just as they would on the other processors ... all they've really changed are the processor core registers and crosslinks (just like Microsoft did for Alpha support)

Mac won't do this though, it looks a firm belief that they think that emulation of these is a better way to go, which quite frankly is just stupid.

Quote: "Ive never seen a professional studio in my lifetime that runs alone on pcs"

I've never seen a single studio that believes they can't live without a Mac - you go into alot of games development houses and you'll find thier majority computer is an x86 based (oftenly Pentium4) and for thie CGr work it'll either be an x86 Based machine with Dual/Quad Processors - else it'll be an Alpha based machine (SGI, IBM and Alike).

the way i see it Photoshop might take a while for a cd size file on a home PC, 400Mb on my Pentium4 2.5 w/1.0Gb Ram takes 12mins however most studios don't ever work to that much - the trick is to layer all of the layers and make each group into a seperate image, else everytime you do an effect even on a single layer it'll take upward of 5minutes.

But that said i've used it on a Dual Itainium 3.0Ghz w/4.0Gb Ram, and i didn't see that much of a speed boost from Photoshop, shaved 2 maybe 3mins off of loading. The problem with photoshop isn't the processing power but the actual design, it isn't setup specifically to take advantage of multiple processors (which is just crazy nowadays), it bloats everything that it saves/loads (Paintshop Pro 7/8 can produce identical pictures which are around half the size)

when it comes down to it, quite frankly Photoshop is just a very badly designed program ... perhaps one day a rival program will acually have far more features, then photo will actually be stuffed because thats all it relys on (and the new paintshop pro 8 comes pretty close in that dept)

Quote: "You say that apple will switch over to the end of the x86 architecture. I find that impoosibly hard to believe.
You will find x86 architecture is way past its use by date, I think you will see a change the other way."


So is PowerPC, it was designed and still is designed with dependancy upon the 68k processor (check the lastest designed you'll not find they build it into the core itself)

Almost all of the processors on the market are too old and not really designed for this amount oof pressure we use them for nowadays, but unfortunately you can't just wipe the sheet clean without turning your back on 20years of compatibility and turning the entire industry upside down to achieve it. It would take years and years to filter in a new processor which is designed better.
And out of ALL of the processors that are being developed now, the 64Bit IA64 (x86 based) Processor is by far the most versitile, fastest & capable of pure number crunching.

Though this G5 64Bit Processor is impressive, just goto the Intel and AMD sites, checkout thier Itainium & Optiron speeds against thier own processor ... they make this processor look like Chicken feed. They have greater support, and even beside thier more complex architecture they also are alot simpler to program for - i mean although they have like 250 opcodes each one does do something you want and you can combine them in sequences rather than the other processors which require alot more care and thought.

think about it, all major 3D products have support for x86 Based machines, they don't have to as they also have support for Alpha based PC's too - and alot of companies would buy a Workstation PC just to make sure they can run this software (most do anyways sometimes) ... however think about it, the 3D Industry has never been one to make thier programs easliy accessable to the commonman, the fact that only ONE of the 8 major packages support Macintosh & PPC - i mean sure that should explain something, that either Mac are just not popular or they're just not upto the task.

the 68k processor was awesome in its day, personally i hope that sometime soon they get back to redeveloping a chip based on that rather than PPC. If you ever look at the older Amgia's you'd probably understand why too.

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
Rob K
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 15:15
The prices for a SINGLE processor setup are indeed too expensive, however the DUAL processor setup was apparently cheaper than the Dell equivilent.

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indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 15:52
"the trick is to layer all of the layers and make each group into a seperate image, else everytime you do an effect even on a single layer it'll take upward of 5minutes."

while that does help in some situations, It doesnt for the final doc composition and the fact that a director wants alterations in a given time.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 16:00 Edited at: 29th Jun 2003 16:01
i thought that was the point in aftereffects (unless i'm wrong about what you use that for)

[edit]
Dell? hehee... they're hardly the cheapest company around are they

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indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 17:09
after effects is a compositor for still or animated work.
usually used to recreate composite 3d and video into one final package.

8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:08
About emulation . . . let's bear in mind that Apple is not the only company making such software.

That aside, even if no one does any emulation between any of the major OSes, the simple fact that there will be that much less machine code to learn is a big deal. It still reduces the amount of BS when you get down to it.

Lindows is still hiding out under the name Lycoris.

Apple was bad at marketing?

No. They were dicks to their developers. People talk about how awful MS, but nobody ever took a look at how Apple treats companies developing for it.

Apple does not publish anything remotely similar to MSDN, or all the SDKs that MS does. They try to regulate the flow of information about their OS by limiting what developers can get. I'd be surprised if there is really more than a handful of people who "know" the entire Mac OS.

Plus, there really is nothing equivalent to MS Visual Studio for Mac (except, maybe, for Real BASIC).

What all this means is that there are fewer developers for Mac, and there would be fewer even if Mac had 95% market share. It is a lot harder to build a robust program for Mac than it is for Windows.

Apple has always been dominated by an odd sort of paranoia (which, what good has that done them, when MS steals half their ideas anyhow).

Ultimately, that has undermined development.

And, as any good gamer knows, the system with the largest number of titles usually wins.

indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:24
"Plus, there really is nothing equivalent to MS Visual Studio for Mac (except, maybe, for Real BASIC). "

so code warrior running C/C++ and java based runtimes isnt similar.

ignorance again.

Im Qualified as a level 1 apple technician, I didnt go for lvl 2.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:25
Quote: "Apple has always been dominated by an odd sort of paranoia (which, what good has that done them, when MS steals half their ideas anyhow)."


it shouldn't be about the ideas, and they're stupid to think it is... its about who can put these ideas to the best use.

I could create a Mesh Deformation Animator for DBP and someone like UVDesign could too - we'd both be working to achieve the same goal, but if i tried to make my identical to Kevin's then £50 says mine would just be an inferior copy ... the only way i can make sure people use mine is to make sure that it gives them what they will need, not what they think they want.

people are always going to steal idea, its just the nature of the industry - its how well you can actually develop your version of it which either makes it a good idea or a terrible one.

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:26
don't forget Cygwin Indi

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indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 20:49
I had a ook at cygwin and it looks no different to another linux distro.

whats the correlation?

8truths
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 22:18 Edited at: 29th Jun 2003 22:25
Indi --

I won't get into the Code Warrior thing. That's a 300 post thread waiting to happen.

To cut that one short, there is only a handful of good IDEs for Mac. Nothing even close to the number you see for Windows or Linux.

. . .

Where are the generic SDKs for Apple? The SDKs Apple does make available are not even SDKs -- they're Apple product endorsements!

For all the bitching people make about MS, Apple is the company that really takes a twelve-gauge shotgun to its foot.

If Apple does such a great job of getting its OS out there for developers, why are there no good, free projects on the Apple? Where are the hobbyists?

They're nowhere, because developing for the Apple is such a diversion of efforts that no one will do it unless you pay them.

Where's the GIMP project for Apple http://www.macgimp.org/?! It's already raping the concept of GPL. GIMP, the one thing that gives long-term hope to a desktop Linux, is already being killed in a Mac version.

Where are the DarkBASIC-type IDEs for Apple?

For the number of virulent Apple enthusiasts, there are few if any casual programmers on Macs. On the other hand, there are tons for Windows, and that has helped MS's market dominance.

When you need info on Windows, it is sitting somewhere waiting to be found. For free.

Where is that info for Mac?

Compare the developers' page on their sites!

http://developer.apple.com/macosx/

http://msdn.microsoft.com/

Even when you're trying to make your own product, Apple is trying to get their product sold!

This is what is wrong with Apple! Apple would just rather you not develop for Mac. They have always tried to force an Apple-only OS on the world. They view developers as detrimental to their bottom line. Every piece of software JoeCo sells is something Apple doesn't.

The only developers that Apple tolerates are ones like Adobe, who are so industry-standard that to ignore them would be suicide!

Even MS has had to accept that it can only dominate so many aspects of your desktop. They build a damn good office suite (which Apple still has to achieve), a few development tools, and they cannot avoid the temptation of the server market.

MS has recognized that if JoeCo makes JoePlayer 1.1 for Windows, then you have to get Windows. That's money MS gets.

Apple still thinks you should get Apple Player 1.0 for Apple Mac OS to view on your Apple monitor and edit files, saved on your Apple HD, with your Apple editor and output them to your Apple printer.

And when developers exercise independence, Apple gets pissy. Look at Quark. Instead of trying to be cool, Apple all but accused Quark of undermining adoption of OSX.

I love Apple machines. The Apple OS is a good OS. Apple is possibly the dumbest company in the business.

And, if they stand by it, the move to the Intel platform will be the smartest thing they have done in ages. Maybe, then, developers won't be strangled trying to make programs for Mac.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 22:36
you were nameing development packages... Cygwin is the most used within the Console & Macintosh industries and has the same level of development setup as Visual Studios

its more a development management system than an actual C/C++ Studio, but its pretty cool

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
indi
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Posted: 29th Jun 2003 23:24
erm

Cygwin is a Linux-like environment for Windows. It consists of two parts:
A DLL (cygwin1.dll) which acts as a Linux emulation layer providing substantial Linux API functionality.
A collection of tools, which provide Linux look and feel.

so how does that fit with mac.?

makes no sense yet.




8truths look for tntbasic and metal for the mac variants of the same thing to DB.

You never mentioned anything about code warrior and therefore I can only assume your ignorant again to its full usage.

I dont see any pcs in the studios were i work freelance and a large scale multimedia projects is to be handled.

I see more macintosh computers in industries well above the bedroom banger.

Btw the company is Apple and since about erm 1980 the computers have been called macintosh.
the computer is an apple its a mac, thats the companies name.

Bungie developed a lot of games for the mac before you probably became aware of them as well as a few other prominent companies.

All the graphic design / video editing / sound engineering / multimedia Ive performed is mostly on a macintosh of some kind.

Intel even outsources its websites to companies that deploy them
because they are the better tool for the job at hand.

I think I would prefer the OSX website when it comes to clarity of information.

I was into the list of facets within seconds, on a MS site it always takes a little more effort to find what you want.

I dont ever see myself investing in a huge pc to do the work I do.

Id get the machine that does it faster, more effeiciently and with less drama overall.

Theres a tonne of freeware for the mac and theres also a list of commercial software. no different to any other platform.

If your not aware tho theres a bundle of applications already installed into OSX.

Apple are not interested in your data as much as MS seems to be, Something Im not happy about is prying eyes.

If I dont want to use the network extension in my mac i just remove it.

You dont have that flexibility with a pc. They keep you int he dark more so with a control panel to remove the components.

In a mac the application can be moved anywhere after its installed. Unfortunately its 2003 and pcs still have hard coded pathways.lol

If i want to add a control panel or a DLL(extension) I just drop them in.

I have more control with my mac than my pc in many ways.

MY 7100 has been on for a year now happpily serving my internet.
I doubt any pc running a variant of Windows could tolerate that kind of action.

Id prefer to be in the minority of mac users.

Ever since becoming more of a windows user Ive never come across such ill tempered and flat out ignorant and rude users of an Operating System that is a pc user, with more fanatacism then mac users.

The pc user sits at the bottom of the pile when it comes to architecture, but they will be dammed if their ignorance will not let them get some oil after sqeaking all day long about it.

Just because its currently the most popular in quantity doesnt mean its the best.

Most of the things you probably deem cool have passed through a mac in one stage of its life, whether it be by design or essential use to bring it to the market place.

A lot of you have no idea and feel threatened you may have had a dud deal with choosing all this time with the pc.
Half of you make estimatated assesments without the years of actual use.

I dont know what would make you post, cept for your ignorance and bias towards the lowest of processors and architecture.

perhaps its just the game your interested in and not the computer or the facets it yields, let alone the full scope of all machiens available.

8truths
21
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Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 00:15
Quote: "perhaps its just the game your interested in and not the computer or the facets it yields, let alone the full scope of all machiens available"


For my part, I'm not much of a game player. But, in many cases this is very, very true.

Obviously MS sees it, or we wouldn't have the XBox.

...

Quote: "I dont know what would make you post, cept for your ignorance and bias towards the lowest of processors and architecture"


I've had this argument in another forum before.

The best system almost never wins.

PC < Mac
Genesis < SNES (SNES did pull ahead late, tho)
PS < Gamecube
DOS < UNIX
Intel < AMD (later AMDs) < Motorola/IBM
IDE < SCSI
Allies < Axis
Good < Evil


Cheap usually wins. If you read the earlier parts of the post, you'll see we covered this base.

By the "good" standard, we should all driver Jaguars. Yet, there are many cars from mfrs like Daewoo, Geo, Hyundai (sp?) on the road. Granted, most of them, if any successful, are absorbed by larger mfrs.

We'd all love to a nice car. Economics doesn't work that way.

It is ridiculous to assume the same principles don't apply to the computer industry.

...

BIAS?!

The minute you mention bias, you're drown in flawed argument. In order to argue, you must be biased.

"Marketplace of ideas" mean anything?

...

Quote: "Most of the things you probably deem cool have passed through a mac in one stage of its life, whether it be by design or essential use to bring it to the market place."


Yeah. And Apple has always failed to capitalize on early leads. Their like watching a bad football team (American, or the version where you actually use your feet).

...

Quote: "You never mentioned anything about code warrior and therefore I can only assume your ignorant again to its full usage."


Code Warrior gets thrown around a lot when folks defend Mac programming. However, it is one of only a few good IDEs for Mac.

Yes, I overstated when I said "nothing like Visual Studio".

I did take a look at the website, and the OSX version of Code Warrior does look pretty nice.

There are no good free IDEs for Mac. Apple never had an equivalent to QBASIC to spur interest. QBASIC was one of the greatest piece of PR that MS has ever done -- giving every kid the hope that he could make the same stuff.

...

Indi, I respect what you say, but . . .

"I can only assume your ignorant again" -- THANKS! Every time someone makes a point, and maybe gets a little overzealous, they're "ignorant".

"Unaware"? "Have not encountered"? No . . . "ignorant".

I's ig'nent cuz i jus don'ta know how t'agree wit chew.

This is why everyone treats computer people like lepers. Nah. . . at least, lepers are capable of fair word choice.

...

TNT BASIC looks pretty cool.

...

Still, look what they did to the GIMP for Mac! Charging!

...

Quote: "Apple are not interested in your data as much as MS seems to be, Something Im not happy about is prying eyes."


What is this big information thing with people? Nobody gives a damn about any of us.

MS has never busted through my door and threatened everyone!

...

As for MSDN . . .

Let's be fair, you find your info from MS.

Yeah, it isn't as nicely organized. So? It is there, and they don't try to turn you to their products.

And, MS gives no hassles if you never want to register with MSDN. The info is still very accessible.

...

Adding a Control Panel? God I hate it when when installers do stuff like that!

...

The fact is, Macs are a lot like European cars -- they run great straight from the lot, but God forgive you if ever need to fix them.

Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 00:46
i really can't be bothered to get into it Indi. Nice you can read a website and all - but Cygwin is more than what the label says (i mean do you know what Cygnus is?)

as for 8Truths, not to be funny mate but you talk so much crap we could make some pretty good fertiliser if we had enough soil.

i could sit here and pick apart the post, but i really only have a few mins to browse this forum before my compile is complete and another few hours of bug hunting begins.

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
8truths
21
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Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 00:58
I do talk a lot of shit; I know.

It beats just saying, "Yeah, that's great that Apple is releasing a new machine. Jeepers! I hope they release in time for the holidays, because I want to buy one for all my family members."

But, Raven, I do want to see you pick apart the marketplace of ideas.

indi
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 01:32
well at least 8truths and myself had a resonable conversation even tho we didnt agree in areas, until the black bird sat on the road sign.

8truths
21
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Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 01:36
Ok ... time to take a deep breath.

Sorry, if I pissed anyone off.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
Shadow Robert
22
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Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 01:44
reasonable?

I pride myself that i don't kill... well not without a good reason
8truths
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 10th May 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 30th Jun 2003 02:54
Quote: "A little bird"


All this time I thought Raven's User Name was a reference to the pudgy little girl who helped the Cosby Show jump the shark.

BTW -- Raven, your show on the Disney Channel sucks.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!

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