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Geek Culture / will IE make a comeback in our hearts?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 06:47
Agent Dink
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 06:57
Jess T
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 07:41 Edited at: 4th Mar 2008 07:41
Quote: "Web sites that want IE8 to use its IE7 engine will have to add a tag to their site's code."


There they go with their proprietary code again!

It's not even 'standards'!

And even if it was, it'll be at least 3 years (after it's out) before the damage done by previous versions is reversed across the major sections of the internet.

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Raven
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 11:08
Quote: "There they go with their proprietary code again!

It's not even 'standards'!"


IE7 is WSC 1.0 compliant, the additions are there partly for backward compatibility; but more because they're just Microsoft-specifics.

You know in the world of C++, both Microsoft and Borland provide not only compatibility with ISO for C and C++ but also provide their own specifics that only their editors understand.

The only pure standard compiler is GCC.
No one goes around bitching that the other has specifics they won't share with the competition... and to be perfectly honest, why the hell should they?!

What because they have a monopoly? We're not talking about an industry where Microsoft are artificially keeping prices high, because Internet Explorer is and will remain FREE. Despite the EU forcing them to remove it from Windows within the EU (along with Media Player, thank you WinAmp), they're not saying that cause they have specific code they *must* change it again to be compliant? Or what... IE becomes banned within the EU itself?

Oh, which btw the company who made the complaint are Opera.
Last time I checked it still costs £20 PER YEAR, for the privilage of using their browser.

Sorry, but the way of the world has always been those with majority market share; dictate standards. You have two choices when it comes to these standard... either you make your product compatible, or gamble on your system been better enough for people to migrate.

Quite frankly Microsoft has been bending over backwards as of late to provide more standards compatibility; despite this people just aren't happy.

With the comment above, aparently Jess seems to feel that the automatic backward compatibility was obviously just as wrong as their new "developers must dictact the compatibility mode"

You know what, as web-developers if you've not made your website WSC compatible then tough. Either include the no doubt XHTML tag or more likely Javascript tag for setting to previous Explorer rendering models or actually write a site that is standard compatible.

Really still clueless to why Microsoft should change anything and why their way of doing things wasn't made a standard.

NVIDIA lost the Shader format war to Microsoft, you don't see them claiming foul play do you? No instead while Cg is still around, NVIDIA have focused on providing the best tool possible compatible with the standard that won.

In the last few years Microsoft has actually introduced a standardisation for Shaders, which prior to SAS pretty much used whatever syntax they felt like (anyone familiar with shaders in DBP should know EXACTLY what I mean)

This is the same really with the browser standards. Only difference is, the other companies have kept crying to governments who then just take it as red that "Microsoft = Evil Monopoly" and thus force them to adhear to everyone elses' way of thinking despite the fact that Microsoft were basically the ONLY browser option available to people using Windows for a good number of years before FireFox and Opera came along. Unless you wanted to keep with a browser that was no longer maintained and lacked huge numbers of fairly important aspects; like say... keywords in the address bar. Might not seem a big deal but you use the browser knowing the exact name of the site your looking for, without a search engine to back it up or trying to hunt it down in your history.

I agreed with many, that Explorer needed more compatibility with web standards; and Explorer 7 provided this; but now all of this is just getting really petty and silly. I honestly don't think Microsoft should keep jumping through hoops for people who won't be happy until they leave the market entire.

How about this for an idea, might be crazy; but what if these rivals who always bitch about Microsofts' market share and standards compatibility ACTUALLY had this same compatibility in their own browsers.

GatorHex
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 11:35
As copy protection gets stronger more and more people will move away from MS products. They forget they became popular becuase their stuff was so easy to copy.

The only thing stopping me going MS free is that there is no game development system on Linux.

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Zappo
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 12:16
Quote: "No one goes around bitching that the other has specifics they won't share with the competition... and to be perfectly honest, why the hell should they?!"

Well to be honest, your average home user won't be compiling their own programs. You will, however, want them to be able to visit your Web site and see it as it was meant to be seen. Creating a site which can take advantage of modern features in the standard but still work on all browsers is a very difficult task because the companies have interpreted them differently. I understand what you mean, and I agree that its okay for companies to add their own features on top of an agreed standard as long as they do comply properly with that standard. Having to add extra tags in order for one browser to use a different rendering engine is horrible. It should never have gotten to a stage where that is required.
Quote: "Despite the EU forcing them to remove it from Windows within the EU"
I think they just had to make a version available for sale which does not include Internet Explorer. I wonder how many of those they actually sold?
Quote: "Microsoft were basically the ONLY browser option available to people using Windows for a good number of years before FireFox and Opera came along"
That's not strictly true. Mosaic (1993) was the first popular one, and the team behind it then created Netscape Navigator (1994). It wasn't until 1995 that MS made quite a poor IE v1 (even though Bill Gates still thought the WWW was a passing fad in 1995) and Opera was released in 1996. A little later the source code for Netscape was used to build Mozilla and then later Firefox. MS had a small percentage of the browser market (reaching about 10%) right up until they started bundling it with their OS which forced it onto peoples machines, so I can understand why the competitors would be annoyed.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 13:09
MS unfortunately just aren't great adopters, they see themselves as more the innovators.


Quote: "As copy protection gets stronger more and more people will move away from MS products. They forget they became popular becuase their stuff was so easy to copy."


The Windows market is now (and has been for some time) so over saturated, they've only option is to up sell existing customers, or force punters who resist to part with their cold hard cash to buy a legit version. It's a bit of a double edged sword as they may well help push some complacent users to looking into other options.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 13:21
Quote: "MS unfortunately just aren't great adopters, they see themselves as more the innovators. "

Yeah and when they cant innovate, they buy you out. I dont know which I prefer, bill gates on the stand in the Netscape antitrust trial lying through his teeth, provably, or bill gates, son-of-a-eugenicist, retired as ms ceo, running around in africa dosing children with tasty, nutritional, "vaccines"

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Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 13:52
Will propobly not use IE8. FireFox is my choise. And sometimes I do not like how MS does things. Like how they bounded IE with Windows for all those years ago. Granted, nothing bad with adding an default browser to an OS, but to bind it to an OS as much as IE is bound to Windows is not good.

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Jess T
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 15:26
Quote: "With the comment above, aparently Jess seems to feel that the automatic backward compatibility was obviously just as wrong as their new "developers must dictact the compatibility mode""


My point was that not only are they adding another non-standard tag to their code, they are also giving developers the option to use a rendering engine which still isn't up to scratch.

Quote: "You know what, as web-developers if you've not made your website WSC compatible then tough. Either include the no doubt XHTML tag or more likely Javascript tag for setting to previous Explorer rendering models or actually write a site that is standard compatible."


My site is standards compatible. It's not that hard to do it, either - there's plenty of tools out there that will tell you what's wrong with it.

But, you know what? Once it was completely standards compatible, IE would not render it correctly. I had to switch to XHTML, and add in some nasty IE-only hacks to make it work.
Even then, it still went a bit wobbly, so I ended up with some proprietary IE code in my CSS - It hurts to do it, but if I don't, then I lose out on about 60% of the visitors to my site!

If IE brought out a browser that could render my site perfectly (like Opera, FF, Netscape, Safari, etc, all do), then I could remove all the IE-only hacks, and be confident that as long as people have the latest browser, then my site will be fully accessible.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 15:37
What exactly is WSC if I may ask? As far as I know, the main web standards board is the W3C, maybe it's a typo or maybe I'm missing something.

ionstream
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 15:48
Quote: "There they go with their proprietary code again!"

They're only doing that so people don't have to rewrite their website code if they don't want to.

Quote: "they are also giving developers the option to use a rendering engine which still isn't up to scratch."

Yes, options are good, especially when default mode is standards mode.

RalphY
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 17:18 Edited at: 4th Mar 2008 17:41
Quote: "If IE brought out a browser that could render my site perfectly (like Opera, FF, Netscape, Safari, etc, all do)"


Isn't that exactly what they are doing with IE8? The standards compatible engine is the default one, and you only have to use the extra tag if you want to use the old IE7 engine. This way no one has to use nasty IE hacks for their site to render correctly, and only the people that designed their site for IE7 have to add the extra tag. They can't exactly go and drop support for IE7 completely.

Unless I misunderstood the article I don't get why everyone is bitching .

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Jeku
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 17:37
Quote: "running around in africa dosing children with tasty, nutritional, "vaccines""


Can you explain what you mean here? Surely you can't be annoyed with what the Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation is doing in Africa.

Quote: "Unless I misunderstood the article I don't get why everyone is bitching"


Same here--- either people are irritated just because it's Microsoft, or they don't actually understand what the issue is. This is a *good* thing


David R
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 17:55 Edited at: 4th Mar 2008 18:03
Quote: "We're not talking about an industry where Microsoft are artificially keeping prices high, because Internet Explorer is and will remain FREE."


It isn't really free though, you need valid Windows to install IE7.

Quote: "Can you explain what you mean here? Surely you can't be annoyed with what the Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation is doing in Africa."


The Gates' foundation was recently found to have been investing double the amount (~$400 mil.) it used for vaccinations into oil companies and industrial polluters. I'm sure that helped the kids out there a great deal.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 18:00
Quote: "It isn't really free though, you need valid Windows to install IE7."

Well it is software designed for Windows so what do you expect?

David R
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 18:04 Edited at: 4th Mar 2008 18:10
Quote: "Well it is software designed for Windows so what do you expect?"


I don't expect any more or any less; but what I mean, is that since you need a license for Windows, it's not actually free in any way or form. You're still paying for it. And even if you can run it on another OS (which you could/can) you can't legally run it without a Windows license. So free != free in IE's case

Quote: "PLEASE NOTE: Microsoft Corporation (or based on where you live, one of its affiliates) licenses this supplement to you. You may use a copy of this supplement with each validly licensed copy of Microsoft Windows XP SP2 and Windows Server 2003 SP1 software (the “software”). You may not use the supplement if you do not have a license for the software. The license terms for the software apply to your use of this supplement. "



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Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 19:15
That IE8 will keep more to the standards are just about time. I just hope it will not be as tightly integrated with Windows 7, when it comes, is IE have been with previous versions of Windows.

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Arkheii
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 19:41
And lose my integrated mail and IRC client? No, thank you. I'm part of the happy minority of Opera 9 users.

MS still insists that we should all be using IE one way or another, like for downloading service packs and updates on a fresh Windows install or in VS2005's online-help web browser.

Jeku
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 20:49
Quote: "The Gates' foundation was recently found to have been investing double the amount (~$400 mil.) it used for vaccinations into oil companies and industrial polluters. I'm sure that helped the kids out there a great deal."


Do you have the source for this? Even if they do that--- so what? Does this automatically negate the fact that their organization is responsible for helping eradicate polio in Africa? Or the fact that they have pumped ~$17 billion into various programs, non-profits, and grants?


Mr Z
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Posted: 4th Mar 2008 21:08
Quote: "And lose my integrated mail and IRC client? No, thank you. I'm part of the happy minority of Opera 9 users."



If a mail and IRC client are that integrated, it will pose as an weakness for the system and are nothing else then poor design. Besides, if I want to remove IE, I should be able to do it without worry for any other part of the system going down. As it is now, I cannot.

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
bitJericho
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 00:59
@Jeku

watch the first two parts (10 mins each), then dont believe a word of it, then go research it for yourself independently.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7844310751342711187
(that links to part 1, get to 2 from within you tube, theres 4 parts iirc)

I meant to ask you how that research into the North American Union was coming, that you never got back to me on (what was it, 6, 8 months ago now?)

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 01:21
Just watched the first part of that video and, to be blunt, it made me laugh. I'm sure there's some truth to it, most of which can't be discussed here for obvious reasons, but to say that the Gates Foundation is run by Nazis and Nazi sympathizers? Of *course* none of this can be goodwill

This speaker is not good, either. He keeps saying "I just found this out... <statistic or fact>, and then I found this out... <statistic or fact>, etc." but doesn't actually give the source for what he's saying. Sure, what he's saying is amazing if it's true (i.e. Microsoft is really just one of many thousands of IBM fronts, highly unlikely but interesting), but where's the proof?

Also, some of the things they're saying about Bill Gates Sr. is not unusual. The fact that he may or may not have changed his name--- that's not unusual. He owns a gay magazine as another way to stop people from having children? That's just hearsay and sounds glamarous but falls short on actual foundation.

So anyways, I pop over to infowars.com to check out some of these facts and am bombarded with ads for government involvement with 9/11. I mean, *everything* is a conspiracy according to that site. I came across an article on Beijing's arresting Falun Gong members because of the Olympics. Um, no, that group has been illegal in China for decades.

Anyways, interesting stuff but hard to take serious.

Quote: "I meant to ask you how that research into the North American Union was coming, that you never got back to me on (what was it, 6, 8 months ago now?)"


Yep, I enjoyed reading up on that topic and watched several videos. I give that movement more credence because I've seen it represented on CNN even. Amazing how there's little to no public knowledge on the subject though.


Jess T
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 01:34
Quote: "They're only doing that so people don't have to rewrite their website code if they don't want to."


Quote: "Isn't that exactly what they are doing with IE8? The standards compatible engine is the default one, and you only have to use the extra tag if you want to use the old IE7 engine."


What I meant was that with the damage done by previous versions of IE, I wont be able to remove any IE-only hacks for quite a while, hence why I said;

Quote: "IE would not render it correctly. I had to switch to XHTML, and add in some nasty IE-only hacks to make it work.
Even then, it still went a bit wobbly, so I ended up with some proprietary IE code in my CSS - It hurts to do it, but if I don't, then I lose out on about 60% of the visitors to my site!"



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ionstream
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 01:48 Edited at: 5th Mar 2008 01:50
Hopefully when IE8 comes out, you will be able to serve up the same exact HTML as you do for the other browsers. Here's hopin' !

CattleRustler
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 02:26
Quote: "Just watched the first part of that video and"

I specifically asked you to watch the first 2 parts, then believe none of it, and research for yourself. was 20 minutes total too much to ask. Apparently so.

What if I read the first half of your post, laughed, and shrugged it off as all false since I didnt see it on CNN?

Wishing things away, or turning a blind eye wont make them less true. I wont even get started on 9/11 and all the physical impossibilities...

Anyway, I could go on and on, and get this thread locked but I wont. I wont ask anything of you. You do as you see fit for you. But remember, every time you have asked for "proof" or "references" I have shown you a starting point, and emphasized that you go independently research these things. Not to listen to me or Alex Jones or whoever. At every turn you have chosen to not even scratch the surface and dismiss things on their face. You're smarter than that, and I understand the fear of knowing the truth will be worse than any fiction imaginable, that unfortunately is the state of things now.

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ionstream
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 02:40
Quote: "Anyway, I could go on and on, and get this thread locked but I wont."


Stopping here might have allowed you to save face.

Jeku
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 06:45
@CR - If you want to get personal, email me. Getting irritated at somebody on a public forum because they choose not to believe what you want them to believe proves absolutely nothing. If you re-read my post, I did not disrespect you at all, so I'd appreciate you giving me the same courtesy.


CattleRustler
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 12:54
Please show me in my post how I disrespected you? Where?

I have a sneaking suspicion that you are equating getting called out on your hipocrisy, with disrespect. Indi tried to go down that road with me countless times. That argument never worked.

Why should I contact you privately to respond to things you said publically? There is no reason, except the one above.

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RalphY
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 13:06
How about the reason you're both dragging this thread of topic?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 13:22
thats true, my apologies to the thread creator
I'm out.

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David R
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 19:28
Quote: "Do you have the source for this? Even if they do that--- so what?"


http://blog.wired.com/biotech/2007/01/gates_foundatio.html

The so what part - they're funding polluters of toxic waste into a delta in the vicinity of people they actually pay to help

I agree, it doesn't automatically negate everything they've done/they're trying to do, but they're definitely far from perfect - conflicts of interest maybe.


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the_winch
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 21:27
Whatever happened to causing other people harm simply being wrong?

"It's for the greater good" might be fine in theory but it doesn't appear to work in practice. It's far too easy to overstate the greater good and ignore the suffering.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 21:56 Edited at: 5th Mar 2008 21:57
Quote: "They're funding polluters of toxic waste into a delta in the vicinity of people they actually pay to help"


Do you not drive a car? The gas you buy helps fund those same corporations.

Just read the comments on that Wired blog you posted, and most of them agree with me:

Quote: "
There are three solutions here.
1. The Gates Foundation can take a look at its investments and decide to invest in less profitable companies and have less money to use to cure the ills of 3rd world companies.
2. The Gates Foundation can stop investing altogether and have their fund eventually disappear and hope that someone else gives medicine to the poor.
3. The Gates Foundation can continue to invest in a diverse portfolio, of which some companies will be disagreeable to some people, and continue to help the needy of this world.

If the goal of the foundation is to help as many people as possible, it seems to me that they are taking the correct course. If anyone has 31,900,000,000.00 that they want to contribute as a competing endowment then disagree all day long. But until then I think that we need to be grateful that there are people out there like the Gates' who give so generously.
"


Agreed 100%.


the_winch
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 22:30
Quote: "Agreed 100%."


Have you really sat down and looked at the situation? Have you looked at the harm done by the so called "bad" companies then looked at the good done by the charity? If you haven't analysed the situation how can you be so sure the good outweighs the bad?

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 22:32
There's absolutely no point in arguing this with me on the forum. I've defended my position and will leave it at that.


Mr Z
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 23:16
We... are... FAR... from... the... subject!

Darkness, you haunt me. If I give in, I would be an monster beyond imagining. Light, you guide me. Thanks to you, I see past the nothingness. Life, I choose to live in the light.
Jeku
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Posted: 5th Mar 2008 23:28
Quote: "We... are... FAR... from... the... subject!"


Welcome to the Internet, where no forum threads stay on topic


tha_rami
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 01:23
Oddly, I'm with Jeku on this one. I too, think that those videos are mere conspiracy theories and I too, believe that the foundation is doing enough good to compensate for the few 'evils' - the same 'evils' we fund ourselves, by the way.


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David R
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 18:16 Edited at: 6th Mar 2008 18:17
Quote: "Do you not drive a car? The gas you buy helps fund those same corporations."


No, I don't. I don't drive. Even if I did, my sole purpose isn't to give charity to people - whereas that is the point of the Gate's foundation.


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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 19:51
Well I love IE7 So I can't wait for IE8. I tried using Fire fox, because everyone kept saying how great it was but I got a virus from using it. So i'll just stick to IE

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Numlock
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 19:52 Edited at: 6th Mar 2008 19:54
opps double post by mis take

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Roxas
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Posted: 6th Mar 2008 21:06
Quote: "Well I love IE7 So I can't wait for IE8. I tried using Fire fox, because everyone kept saying how great it was but I got a virus from using it. So i'll just stick to IE"


O_O Numlock.. I just cant imagine you as.. one of us geeks here sorry..


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Posted: 7th Mar 2008 15:06
He's an outsider!
Get him!



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Keo C
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 7th Mar 2008 16:42
*pins down Numlock and holds a Firefox icon in his face.*


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RalphY
20
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Joined: 6th Sep 2004
Location: 404 (UK)
Posted: 8th Mar 2008 00:25
Meh, I use IE myself. have Firefox installed for use on the occasional website that wont work in IE, but I much prefer IE for general browsing.

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Keo C
17
Years of Service
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Joined: 3rd Aug 2007
Location: Somewhere between here and there.
Posted: 8th Mar 2008 00:39
*lets go of Numlock, starts to chase RalphY*


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Agent Dink
20
Years of Service
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Joined: 30th Mar 2004
Location:
Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:05
Quote: "but I much prefer IE for general browsing."


How... How could you? There is no benefit to using IE for anything other than testing workarounds DESIGNED FOR IE. UGH.

Benjamin
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 8th Mar 2008 01:09
Why can't people use a particular application without others criticising?

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