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Geek Culture / Computing Job Market

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Michael P
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Location: London (UK)
Posted: 7th Apr 2008 18:25 Edited at: 7th Apr 2008 18:25
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Talking about the UK here:

I'm coming up to the point where I have to make university choices in a few months and I was wondering: If I do a totally unrelated course at university (e.g. psychology), can I then get a decent computing job assuming that the university I went to was prestigious?

I know that usually in the accounting industry, they don't actually check what degree you took, they employ you on the basis of:
-A level grades
-Prestige of University

So, even if I did Accounting or Economics at university, I'd be at a disadvantage against someone with equal A level grades and a more prestigious university having done Psychology.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 18:47
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Why would you take psychology if you want to do computer work?

Why would you waste you time like that?


Hurray for teh logd!
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Michael P
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 18:55
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Well, I was just using that as an example. Essentially my problem is that I didn't take maths A level which is required to do computing in most top universities. This means that I have the following choices:
-Take a gap year to do maths and earn some money
-Do a course that doesn't require maths

I'm in year 12 at the moment which is the year AS exams are taken. I'm going to start AS maths next year giving me a head start in case I go for the gap year idea. I should therefor end up with the following when I finish A2:
5 A's at AS level
3 A's at A2 level

That puts me into the max 3.5 A levels that universities take and gives me AS maths. Still however, with the current system I can't actually do computing at university because I don't have A2 maths.

The reason I'm asking about the computing job market is that I may decide to just do something that I meet the A level subject requirements for but isn't linked to computing. This would save me from 'wasting' a year.
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GatorHex
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 19:15 Edited at: 7th Apr 2008 19:16
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You don't need A Level math if you take business computing rather than gaming computing. Funny as it seems game programming is harder but out in the real world the demand is for business computing and that degree will also be taken more seriously by employers!

I did my degree without A levels but had to go 2 years HND + 2 years degree.

The only reason to do psychology is to meet girls. No girls on computing courses and no men on psychology ones

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
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bitJericho
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 19:22
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Quote: "No girls on computing courses and no men on psychology ones"


Psychology was one of my favorite courses. Not my major though Just one of those requires classes.


Hurray for teh logd!
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Robin
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 20:12
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It is true that your degree doesn't have to be related to what you're studying in many cases. For example, if you want a high paid job in investment banking, you should study maths or an engineering discipline at oxbridge, imperial or lse, rather than something like 'financial studies' or 'business finance' at another uni. Most employers look at the uni first. If you want to get into, say, business consulting, it seems many people get into the top ones by studying a completely unrelated subject - history, english, a foreign language or psychology at a good university, and then doing a masters business conversion course for a year or two. I'm just finishing my penultimate year at uni and have been to plenty of careers fairs put on by these companies and spoken to graduates who join these companies.

In terms of studying computing at uni, I'm pretty certain the top ones will require maths at a level and further maths would be a bonus too. Check that though. Have you done computing/physics at a level?

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Van B
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 20:46
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If you don't have a computer science degree, your basically in the same boat as someone with no degree, in other words no chance of getting anywhere unless you have a killer portfolio.

Of course I'm talking about programming here, I could see how a degree in psychology might help if you were going for a game designer job. Programmers these days make engines, I'd say designing the games would be a much more rewarding job.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Michael P
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 21:08
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Quote: "Have you done computing/physics at a level?"


Unfortunately, no. What I chose is: Economics, Psychology, Politics, IT.

That is a pretty random selection and essentially I just chose what I thought would interest me most. If I could go back in time I would choose: Physics, Maths, Computing, Economics.

Even if I do an extra year studying maths, do you think this would be enough with the following combination of grades to get me into a top university?

A's at AS in: Maths, IT, Politics, Economics, Psychology
A's at A2 in: Maths, IT/Politics, Economics, Psychology

Note that at A2 it is either IT or politics depending on what I drop. This leads me onto another question, what should I drop after AS: IT or politics. My problem with IT is that it is black listed and some universities actually ignore it as an A level.
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Chenak
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 22:36 Edited at: 7th Apr 2008 22:39
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You can do a computer science course without maths ALevel or AS, as long as you can prove you have exceptional computing skills and have the ability to do the math required in the course. Knowing how to program already is a huge plus if you can prove it

It wouldn't hurt to apply to the uni's that say you require maths, if none accept you then you can do a maths alevel or AS in your gap year (make sure there is a place where you can do it and if they will accept you!)

A university may just make you do another year to catch up on maths if you need it. Never make assumptions based on the ucas site, visit universities, send emails, talk to the lecturers and you may get a good surprise. I think they would consider an IT A-level sufficient, but I did the double award which had quite a bit of math in it already. It also needs to be the more technical version of IT rather than word processing. Can't remember what it was called now but my course had programming, web design and other stuff.

I didn't need a math's alevel for my computer science course, but I chose a mediocre university because I didn't want to die of stress Good luck
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RalphY
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 23:02
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You don't need A level maths to get into all the top Uni's. Don't know what the ranking tables are like these days as it was 3 years ago that I applied to Uni, but Bristol was like 4th in the list of top Comp Sci Uni's and they didn't require A level maths.

Also as Chenak said, you may even be able to get into somewhere that does require maths so long as you can prove that you know your stuff.

I really don't see you having an easy time getting a job in the computing industry without Comp Sci, they would be more likely to take someone from a less prestigious Uni than someone with a completely unrelated degree.

Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking! | Super Nintendo Chalmers!
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Michael P
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 23:20 Edited at: 7th Apr 2008 23:20
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Thanks guys . I've now got a list of choices that I'm going to put down that are universities that do not require maths to do computer science. Note that they are in no particular order:
-Surrey
-Sussex
-Kent
-Birmingham
-Reading

What do you think of these universities?
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BatVink
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Posted: 7th Apr 2008 23:37
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I have been working in IT for about 18 years, currently a technical consultant. I have no degree. I work with someone who has a music degree, and another that studied in something to do with rivers(?) So there are no rules as to what you need!
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soapyfish
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 00:17
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Just out of curiosity BatVink, how did you go about getting the job you did then?

I have no plans to go to Uni, it's just not something I want to do but I'm still going to need a job.

I feel as if I know I have the skills to do the work but without a bit of paper with a letter on it I won't be given the opportunity to prove I can do the work.

I'm thinking I'd need a bangin' portfolio to even get them to notice me.

Your p0st count
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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 00:32 Edited at: 8th Apr 2008 00:33
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Quote: "Just out of curiosity BatVink, how did you go about getting the job you did then?"

I got my job in the late eighties. I wanted a job in IT. I agreed to do an apprenticeship, sepcialising in electronics, but learning everything from metal-working to welding. I did the rounds in the company - quality control, engineering, sales, purchasing, training, production - built up a good knowledge of everything. In between, I worked overtime in the IT department, getting to know the systems. They funded my HNC in electronic engineering, which included programming as part of the course (Assembly and Pascal!)

Before that - I wrote Tron Lightcycles on my Dragon 32 as a way to teach myself programming!

In short - I worked hard to get what I wanted, I just took a different route
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Robin
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 00:43
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Out of that list I'd say go for Birmingham or Reading. I have a friend who went to Birmingham - the campus looks really nice from what I've seen

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 00:57 Edited at: 8th Apr 2008 00:57
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If you're getting into professional programming, you will need a degree. Sure, 1% of the programmers (if that) at any given large company won't have a degree, but it's hard enough finding a job when you *do* have a degree. I wouldn't recommend anyone to take the lazy way out because you feel you have the skills without the piece of paper. In the end, unless you have a kickass portfolio (i.e. a game that you have sold that people have actually heard of, i.e. AudioSurf), the chances of getting a job as a professional programmer are stacked against you in a big way. Companies need way to sort through resumes, and most of them will just trash all the prospectees who don't have degrees, even without looking at said portfolio. It's a tough market.

18 years ago things were a lot different than now. IT work is different and I have absolutely no knowledge about what it takes to get an IT job.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 01:00
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Knowledge of how to turn a PC on and off judging by my observations.


I fail at life. No, really.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 01:08
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Quote: "Knowledge of how to turn a PC on and off judging by my observations."


I was thinkin the same thing


Hurray for teh logd!
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spooky
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 01:12
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I left college 20 years ago and got a trainee programming job after they were impressed with my A levels in maths, statistics and physics. The City and Guilds in COBOL application programming also helped a bit.

I stuck with same firm for last 20 years, but after working from home for last few years it was driving me nuts, so decided on a career change and by a stroke of luck a great programming job came up just a 5 minute drive away, which I started last month.

The things you learn doing A level maths and stats stick in your mind for many years and have certainly helped me in programming.

Back in the 80's like many others here, programming was a completely different ball game to todays nice gui's and object orientated stuff. I made do for many, many years with a tiny little screen, that had green on black ascii characters, no graphics whatsoever, no mice, and trying to write business software used by multi-million pound companies. That was fun.

Boo!
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Dazzag
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 09:52 Edited at: 8th Apr 2008 09:55
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Quote: "If you don't have a computer science degree, your basically in the same boat as someone with no degree"
Not quite. Before I was involved with interviews, my company would employ people just because they had a degree. One guy employed just after me had a maths degree and another had geography. This was based on the idea that if they had a degree then they could learn. I'm sure a lot of other places are like that. After a while we sorted it out and only accepted CS degrees. Once I got involved in the interviews I managed to convince (eventually) my manager that a HND in computing was worth considering too. These were all programming jobs. And note that previously a lot of people got in because of who they knew. Managing director's best friends son etc. Don't underestimate how massively powerful knowing people are. If you are in with the shakey hand, funny walk, antler wearing crowd then you are gold Honest...

My manager didn't have a degree, and I know quite a few people who don't. But these days more and more CS graduates are being churned out. We have an entire department of about 50 clearasil graduates on the new system. With this happening then the chances of getting a job without a CS degree is getting slimmer and slimmer. It's not impossible, just much more unlikely than it ever was before. Unless you know people Hell, if you know people then you can be automatically the boss of all these CS degree people. I know cos I've been there. Ah, the burn of injustice...

At the end of the day though, when you get like a couple of hundred CVs a month (we did) and you know a CS degree person should be fine, and 90% of those CVs are CS degrees, then why take a chance with the 10% that are not? Sure you can miss a lot of diamonds, but why play with the duffer odds? IQ tests help too (even CS degree graduates can be crap just at a less percentage), but when time is money you need to maximise everything.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 11:15 Edited at: 8th Apr 2008 11:15
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Quote: "I made do for many, many years with a tiny little screen, that had green on black ascii characters, no graphics whatsoever, no mice, and trying to write business software used by multi-million pound companies. That was fun."


Welcome to my world (or 50% of it)

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Dazzag
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 12:58
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Quote: "Welcome to my world (or 50% of it)"
Yep. At one point I also had the VTX sets, that are like Teletext/Ceefax based TV set thingies that a lot of travel agents still use. Something like 40x20 chars in most countries I get different colours though

On our system (Unix based never heard of business basic (Universe and Unidata from IBM was one branch) variant is most of my work) we don't even have the upgraded windows version of the language. I don't mean Windows BTW. I mean the built in ability to easily plonk up an ASCII window, then remove it without affecting the text underneath. You know, like the original VB (VB for DOS. Have all the disks somewhere...). Apparently all our customers (mainly large travel companies) wouldn't want to pay for that (increased memory and storage on DG or IBM Unix machines)... Paying millions for our latest full GUI/Oracle system on the other hand...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
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MSon
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 14:06
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If you want my advise, then take computer sciences, Mathmatics, physics, Courses like that, although i never went to uni, i did full time work and lots of additional collage cources in my own time, But I dont work in IT as companies tend not to check these.

Also if you know anyone who works in IT or Programming that may help greatley, Dosn't hurt to suck up a little as most people i've known who work in IT got the job not based on Qualifications or knowlage, but based on who they know

Everyone Be Cool, You, Be Cool.
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Zappo
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Posted: 8th Apr 2008 17:49
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When I first entered the I.T. industry qualifications weren't the primary thing employers were looking for - it was experience which mattered. After College I took a job as a lowly computer technician repairing and building PC's (8086 upwards), Amiga's, printers, fax machines etc. I worked my way up to Technical Services Manager for a couple of International computer companies before running my own company for a while. Now I work in education (although I don't teach any more apart from staff training) and do private consultancy, programming and design jobs.
Now-a-days you need the qualifications as everybody and their dog builds PCs and there are a million bedroom Web designers who knock up a few sites for their dad's mates and call themselves professionals. The bottom line is that you need the quals in order to get your foot in the door and gain the experience required to progress.


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sprite
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Posted: 9th Apr 2008 22:45
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I have just finished uni and got my fisrt job. The industry is hard to get in to but once your in your get most jobs. You don't need a degree but it helps alot. With more and more people taking training into computering most will not have the degree to back it up.

I took the HND and then topped up to a degree. Which with my spelling problems was perfect for me.

I will point this out when you look at the uni look at the computers and ask as many questions as you can. Make notes about their answers. Some places I have been learning in where all talk and didn't have the trainig to teach it or the computers to do it.

If you go down the IT support after the degree do the cisco and sever admin courses as it will allow you to demand higher pay. Less people know these things meaning more pay. Think about what you want to do. Think about what companies want and what skills others are less likely to have.

I have the degree but also have training in high speed fiber optics. Personal the fiber optics training won it for me. I'm still doing the cisco and server admin learning but once I have them I'll get higher pay. Server admins at the company I'm in gets £60,000. Pc supprot first year £20,000 going to 30,000.

I'll add something later on.
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greenlig
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 04:25
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Do what I'm doing A Bachelor Of Games Design. My degree has industry placement for most of the final year too, and there is an internship on offer to the most successful students after one year.

Admittedly, its the first year, and a few kinks need to be ironed out, but all in all, its a good course.

Greenlig

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MikeS
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Posted: 10th Apr 2008 07:49
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I just wrote a little article on my w.i.p website that might help your decision as to what choice to make for college. The bottomline is if you're going into programming, you need a computer science degree. If you're more inclined to go into the art world, well, I think there's a little more flexibility and these new game design degrees might be a quick career boost.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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