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Geek Culture / Domestic Violence charges on a minor.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 02:55
My friend recently ( the one who owns this account ) told me at school to ask this here. Basically, he is having domestic violence charges pressed upon him by the police, and he has no clue what type of sentence he could get. Basically, here is what happened:

His brother wanted something he had and started attacking him. He tried to fight back, but couldn't overpower his brother and was taking a sever beating and ended up with numerous injuries to the head and arms and such. After he had enough of a beating, he grabbed a nearby knife to scare his brother away from hitting him. He then called the cops in fear his brother again.

When the police got there, they arrested both him and his brother under charges of domestic violence.

What type of sentence is he looking at? A minor committing domestic violence against an adult.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 03:01
I'm sure once they find out that he was just defending himself they will let him off, especially since he is a minor, but then again, I hardly know British law, nevermind American.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 03:32
Well, the problem is his brother began lying saying he drew the knife first. As a minus, in the actual police report, it never mentioned his brother attacking. It said that he attacked and drew a knife on his brother. Which is very untrue, and also very unbelievable, so yeah, they may let him off. He may get off with probation. But right now, hes on house arrest.

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 03:52
Wow, thats scary stuff.

Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:09
He should just plead not guilty and defend himself to say it was self defense.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:23
Depends on the coppers to some extent and the legal system in your state, some people get charged stupidly, sometimes people get what they deserve and the innocent person gets away rightly.

The legal system, should be lenient, the law tends not to favour on violence in the UK at all, luckily you're in America, a country where the constitution promotes self defense.

If your friend was defending his physical well being from domestic abuse, then I think logically what he did was a necessary move to prevent himself from harm - a bluff can scare off an attack. After all sometimes you got to defend your self by the best means possible and the USA do give you the right to bear arms for self defense. Though it could go the other way, by the fact the knife was a threat.

So then it really depends if the police officers or court decide that it's self-defense and what their standards are. I don't see any good reason why your friend should be charged.

As for how long he can be sentenced? Don't know, he'd be at juvenile hall? (that's the minor system you guys have right?) usually depends on the hands he's left in. But best of luck and hope the legal system where you live is a just and perceptive one. (presuming the events are as you say they are, though I have no reason to doubt you)

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:28
My friend went to juvenile detention for 3 days over the weekend, then was put on house arrest. The police officers said he was facing 6 months in jail, which seems a bit of a scare tactic, but who knows. I've personally seen this judicial system come to illogical conclusions before, so theres no real way of telling what will happen to him.

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Chenak
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:30
If you have a weapon such as a knife and you are defending yourself against someone without a weapon then you are considered not to be defending yourself but assaulting and you can be charged.

If you have a weapon underneath your bed such as a bat, it is considered as not self defense if you use it against someone who has unlawfully broken in your house and you can be charged.

These examples where on a radio show trying to find out how a person is able to defend themselves legally and these where the apparent real life examples they cited. Not sure if it is true though but sounds about right I think.

My friend got her arm and shoulder bone broken by her now ex boyfriend, she almost got done in for assault for using a martial arts move on him to defend herself (considered a lethal weapon since he was unarmed and she knew martial arts). He got away scott free dispite overwhelming evidence from doctors saying how the bones where broken due to assault and eye witness accounts. Apparently if she had not defended herself he would have got a sentence, great huh.

This is how messed up things can get O.o
tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:38
Is Martial Arts considered a weapon, lol?


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Osiris
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:40 Edited at: 12th Apr 2008 04:41
In order to use a deadly weapon here in you need to fulfill three requirements:

1. You need to be cornered with absolutely nowhere to run AND you feel threatened for you life.

2. You need to be in a place you would normally deem safe (I.e. Your house, a library, etc...).

3. you need to issue verbal warnings to the assailant.

After those are all checked off you can legally kill the person with a gun, knife, karate or whatever.

Seems to me however that your friend should challenge it and take it to a court.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:48
Well, according to him, he was trapped in his families kitchen whilst his brother was repeatedly battering him in the head, and the knife just so happened to be there. If screaming for help and telling them to stop is considered verbal warnings, then thats also checked off. Since he is a minor I wouldn't expect that bad of something to happen, also this is his first offense, so I wouldn't expect it to be bad.

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Osiris
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:53
I dunno, some 7 year old kid accidentally shot his dad with his dads pistol and hes in jail for pretty much life for murder.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 04:55
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 05:03
The way I see it - from the sounds of it - the older brother had an unfair physical advantage over your friend, logically how is the guy going to protect himself? From the sounds of it he wasn't in the position or of capability of defending himself with either knowledge of fighting or physical strength...thus the attacker had an unfair advantage that meant the defender couldn't actually do the defending without intervention or the use of a weapon. I know the justice system doesn't want to encourage weapon use, but I'm sure it doesn't want to discourage making last resorts on defense?

From what I understand from reading this, he did use the weapon in attack, but as a threat, if he had intended on using it, he would have, surely.

Though if he could escape or wasn't at a last resort, it would more understandable why he received what he did. Though it's really hard to judge, we're getting a voice from you from your friend, so dare I say it, a level of it is going to have some kind of bias in the story and it sounds like the story is one person's word against the other, which of course makes judging the actual incident and motives difficult, even for the police.

Though 6 months is a little much, and I hope he doesn't get that. But hey, it depends on the quality of your justice system there, individual factors of coppers involved and how they see it.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 05:08
I agree that there probably is some bias somewhere in this, but the older brother had a past history of this type of violence apparently. And according to my friend, had actually been arrested for punching their dad in the face.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 05:08
just go with self defence all the way. if you have bruses to prove it get photos now! if you called the police you were obviously calling for help! get a lawyer or police will screw you they can turn pretty much anything you say against you.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 05:10
He said the police photographed his injuries. He had his face pretty bloodied up and the police had seen that apparently.

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GatorHex
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 05:17
police have a habbit of losing evidence I'd get your own photos too, to be on the safe side

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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 08:10
Quote: "I agree that there probably is some bias somewhere in this, but the older brother had a past history of this type of violence apparently. And according to my friend, had actually been arrested for punching their dad in the face."


Pff, it'll be thrown out within minutes if they even do decide to press charges against the minor.


Hurray for teh logd!
Wiggett
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 09:34
Quote: "A minor committing domestic violence against an adult."


the adult whom bashed him, a minor. If the adult was able to severely beat the minor (whom pulled the knife out first) he was clearly able to disarm the minor instead of smashing his face repeatedly. The brother has had previous convictions of assault, how in the world did they not take the minors word for it? Sounds fishy to me.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 11:39
What's are the parents' stance on this? What are they doing about it and saying to the police? I think some of the comments here should be passed onto your friend so that he knows his rights and why he isn't guilty of a crime - just self defense.

But what are the police doing for the older brother? Are they letting him off scott-free with previous charges of assault? and this one being to a minor? If the police don't give your friend the benefit of the doubt then I'd kick up a huge fuss about it - protests (get friends and family involved) and give your law enforcement a hard time about their decision (If you're right in saying your friend is not guilty and doesn't deserve a sentence). Protests have happened before on jail cases, though not many actually win because the authorities (depending where you are) can be quite stubborn, you might find that your law enforcement are just and decent, but have a firm hand.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
SunnyKatt
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 15:08
In martial arts we have to understand that getting in a fight in general is going to get us in trouble, we have to put our lives over the law at all times. So if a 5 year old had a gun aimed at me, I'd beat the crap out of him until it was enough to get away.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 16:26
Martial Arts and self defense is an interesting one, generally the fact you're classed as a professional fighter means you're not meant to be violent away from the dojo can be used against you.

Yet, such things as Karate are strongly emphasized only to be used in self defense, because Karate follows a nice long set of philosophy - that puts you at a point where your techniques use are only minimal to keep you and the attacker too much harm. When you get your black belt, you do have same lenience, if the judge is intelligent enough and they may realize that you could only get that grade based on the judgment of a much higher professional - from what I've been told in a legal case you can use your instructor as a witness. (even though technically they're not witnesses) Again something that would depend on the law enforcement and judges. I've known some Karate-ka being attacked by muggers and doing some damage without getting into trouble.


As for life over law, well sometimes law can't always dictate the most ethical thing to do (as laws have to be absolute) and if that means suffering a punishment, then it's better than other possible outcomes - thus sayings such as 'life sucks' come along.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 17:21
The parents don't really know what happened, he said they were not home when all this happened. But according to him, his parents are focusing on not getting the older brother in trouble and not helping him at all ( the older brother now has a lawyer, while he does not ).

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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 18:30
How old are these kids?

Xarshi
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 19:06
16 and 18.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 20:16
Oh. That kind of changes some perspective.

A 12 year old with a knife would obviously not have the heart enough to actually stab a family member, regardless of how much beating he was getting.

A 16 year old, with a stronger, more mature mind, on the other hand is more likely to have the will to stab someone who's giving him loads of trouble.

Just saying.

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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 21:06 Edited at: 12th Apr 2008 21:07
nevermind.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 12th Apr 2008 21:08 Edited at: 12th Apr 2008 21:08
Our judicial system sucks if Benny53 gets busted and his story is to be believed. By all rights his brother should be the one taking the punishment. You think a 16 year old is gonna start a fight with his 18 year old brother? For one thing generally regardless of how kind your older brother is there is always this fear as they've always been bigger and stronger than you, always seemed to have the right to boss you around. I'm still scared of my older brother even though I outweigh him and am just as strong. There's just a respect thing there. I wouldn't try engaging my brother in a 1 vs 1 fight. I'd probably get my arse kicked. Obviously if this brother is capable of beating up his younger brother mentally there has to be that dominance thing in the family. I doubt he just exploded on Benny for the first time ever. Also the brother has other violence based charges. If the judge and jury let this guy off the hook and Benny takes the blame I think it's seriously time to reconsider the way our laws work in these instances. Just the fact that Benny was able to call the cops on his brother is just about enough indicator that he didn't do it. Why would he want to get involved with the law other than to protect himself?

Purely self-defense and weapon involved or not Benny should get off scott-free and his bro deserves a long sentence as this is a 2nd offense and against a minor at that.

SunnyKatt
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 03:08
Yeah, the age changes everything.

Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 05:19
By changes everything, do you mean better for him or worse?

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Robert F
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 06:43
What did he have so bad, that is brother pretty much killed him for? Story seems kind of strange.

Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 07:06
What do you mean? Like what provoked their fight? He had apparently taken a homemade bong of his brothers because his parents told him to do stuff like that.

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Osiris
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 07:10
ROFL. Was he also taken in for drugs?

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 07:31
Not to my knowledge. I remember way back he was taken in for them though. Apparently the police also knew the brother from past experiences with him, lol.

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Osiris
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 07:41
Thats kinda like this guy who called th police because someone stole his drugs and he wanted them back.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
Lover of games
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 08:52
I figure this as good a place as ever to post this..so i am: Link

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2007/2/23/225969.html?title=Shocking+video+shows+teen+being+beaten+at+sleepover

there's a video on Youtube of it, although not sure if it's actualy the video from the article

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Zdrok
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 16:35
Why do people upload videos like that to Youtube? Stupidity is why. I'm not even gonna bother clicking the link because people probably posted comments like: "thats so kewl" or "awesum" or "hes teh n00bz!!11one"

And yes, I've seen comments like that on Youtube.

Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 16:45
Although the story seems very vauge, I would give the brother a Guilty sentance and you're friend, well I would let him off, he grabbed a knife a defended back, that is what I would of done If I had the chance.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:21
One thing I'm quite surprised about is, why is his brother pressing charges and why aren't the family being supportive. (judging by what is being said that's the case)

Surely if his family had any decency they wouldn't want him to go to prison, or has the friend had several cases like this before, when not in a tight spot?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:26
I find that odd too.
I also seem to come back and forth to this thread, it intrigues me.
Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:33
It is the police pressing charges. I personally think that seems a bit stupid.

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Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:38
Me too.
What are these officers thinking?
There out of there mind.
MonoCoder
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:40 Edited at: 13th Apr 2008 17:55
Now, I've not read through this thread wholly, just the title and first post, but it seems to pertain to similar incidents involving benny53 and his brother.

Oddly, his age appears to have gone backwards from 20 to 18 in a matter of months.

edit: "Mystery" dismissed below.

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Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:42
Well again. the benny here(Not the wounded one) could of misheard him.
But again, this is another Assault...(Oh how much I would like to put the gavel down with a guilty sentance upon his brother.)
Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:49
Nah, he has three brothers. He is the youngest. His brother dan is 24 I believe, his brother dave just turned 21, and his brother mike ( the one who attacked him ) is 18.

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Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:54
Oh my, its a boys house.
(Thats alot of brothers.)
Xarshi
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 17:58
Yeah, and this is really the first time anything has happened between them, which I find amazing.

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Aertic
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 18:03
Realy, must be somthing serious then.
Nemesis_0_
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Posted: 13th Apr 2008 20:28
Im a police foundations student so i might be able to help you a bit.

Quote: "As a minus, in the actual police report, it never mentioned his brother attacking. It said that he attacked and drew a knife on his brother. Which is very untrue, and also very unbelievable, so yeah, they may let him off."



I would say that your friend is lying...or really stupid. He would have had to fill out his own police report, so unless he is just retarded, it would say something about his bro attacking him.

Grabbing a knife at all can result in an assault with a deadly weapon charge (even if you dont actually assault someone with it) so he should feel lucky. Your friend isn't telling you the whole truth, and until he tells the whole truth justice won't be served.

As for people talking about martial arts. Unless you are a blackbelt they can't charge you with excessive force, or assault with a deadly weapon at all... Im a martial artist and I'm a bouncer at a nightclub and there is no problems if i use any martial arts technique as long as its reasonable and justifiable...

Thats what all of this comes down too. Is it reasonable and justifiable?

Short answer from what i've read, No it isnt.

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