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Geek Culture / My last bit of respect for M$ has gone...

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Nilrem
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 16:25
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~prillih3/blog/stories/2002/08/03/microsoftWantsAdminPrivile.html
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
Dave J
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 16:31
Fascinating...

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
CrayZemon
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 16:32
Speechless!
Me personally like PCs, but I fail to admire their makers at times like this.

"I need gopher-chucks!!"
Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 17:10
Dont think that some of that is legal. Also it has been streached a bit, there is a perfically resonable explanation that...

Joeyjoejoe shabadoo slips money into pocket and runs.
Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 18:13
Disgusting, as usual.

They'll be gone by 2010...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 20:13
all sounds perfectly fair to me... if you notice they're not legally given the rights that real admins have, suchs move/delete/change/reregister your files, it only gives them the ability to upload & download Mircosoft products to your PC as well as install. And if they do then you don't have to pay for it.

So if a Microsoft Engineer on a whim decided to give the entire west coast Office 2004 they'd install it and you don't have to pay for it. On the same note this gives them the right to regularly check your HDD for illegal and illicit files, they do get a good few court cases about users of the Microsoft Windows Operating System helping to cause alot of world-wide piracy and illegal activities.

Basically thier powers legally and effectively are superficial at best, and as they do have around 90% of the worlds market using thier OS and 80% of that is online ... it means they'll be able to run regular checks on people.

Think about it, after all what is going on is your licensing to use thier OS - effectively renting it for an unlimited period of time, and if you rent a car from a car dealer they're also legally allowed to snoop around in the car they've rented you without warning if they choose. But they'd also not be allowed to take anything which they haven't personally installed and anything they do install they cannot charge you extra for withou you signing a contract agreeing that you will par for it.

read it carefully and you'll find that this is just a big hollaballo about bugger all because Microsoft aleady do everything listed. And they're perfectly within thier right to if they want to.

the only reason to be worried would be if Mircosoft abused thier position like a true Administrator might - even then they're not given unlimited things they're allowed to effectively do so if they did then that would mean they'd be given a hiatas until an investigation from one of the major data protection agencies did a full once over of the company.

IanM
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 20:36
There are a few good points there, but you're missing something.

MS is legally entitled to upload new software to my PC. I've no problem with them giving me stuff, but I do have a problem if that upload 'accidentally' disables other software I have. In fact, they did it before with DRDOS and Win95. Now where is DRDOS?

Also, I have private information held on my PC, which I take reasonable precautions to keep safe and secure. Now I want to keep this information safe - yes, even from Microsoft employees I wonder what the UK Data Protection Act does for me here?
Arrow
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 21:21
That and I'm sure no one here doesn't have at least one ill gotten MP3 or that one MPEG that no one must know about .

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
Angeleyes
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 21:40
IanM....

Don’t worry.....thankfully were not under the stupid American legal system/data protection laws in England!
Your personal data is safe even from MS, and if you want to be VERY safe about it, just encrypt it to 256 or more....MS cannot break that form of encryption anyway. ^_~

Ta ta for now
Mary

MrTAToad
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 21:59
Anyway, how would they get around firewalls and stuff like that ?

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins and other exciting things - oh my, yes!
IanM
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 22:13
Angeleyes: The EULA says absolutely nothing about which country they are restricting the EULA to. I don't really think that it will come to anything anyway, precisely because of this type of post.

MrTAToad: They can't get through your *hardware* firewall, unless you connect to them first ... which Media Player does every-so-often anyway, but for those of use with a software firewall, it would only take MS a small amount of code to bypass it if they wanted to.

When you do block it, you lose access to 'Media Guide', 'Radio Tuner', the ability to deal with unknown avi formats etc, and 'Album Info' when you legitimately copy a CD to your hard-drive (for personal use). Most of the things that make Media Player so easy/nice to use.
Rob K
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Posted: 5th Jul 2003 22:17
Quote: "MrTAToad: They can't get through your *hardware* firewall, unless you connect to them first ... which Media Player does every-so-often anyway, but for those of use with a software firewall, it would only take MS a small amount of code to bypass it if they wanted to."


You have control over which applications are allowed to access the internet - I don't allow any MS apps to connect to the internet.

Besides, if MS did try anything with these "rights", someone would soon release a hack to stop it.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
aprilfan
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 01:18
The the hell?!?!!? THis is terrible !!! The Music industry and microsoft is after us now! I can't take it anymore!!!!!!! I quit!


* Anjin leaves the room and boards a plane to Korea where he will spend the next 10 years in silence coding away at his game far from the reach of the "Evil Empire".

The Great Schism.- The Earths reaction to Heavons invasion.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 01:30
well to be honest problems will only arrise if they abuse what the EULA says...

i don't have any problems allowing anyone to snoop around my HDD, i don't have anything to hide - sure i have sensitive projects ... however these are undercopyright and thier EULA does not give them the right to check or copy such files, if i find out they've been tampered with whilst on the secure mircosoft channel they're liable upto the full amount of a copyright infringement

and all that takes is 2minutes to fill in the information withing DBP or C++ save and its done.

and technically they're not allow to sit there and open up, it'll be more like a search engine searching for keyphases and then a personal internet searcher would be called in if it is believed there are illegal/illicit software or documents on the hdd.

as for disabling software, if you read the current EULA for 98/ME/2000/XP you'll notice that they're not allowed to disable any software which came your copy of windows without first letting you know, nor are they allowed to edit the OS in any way which may cause older programs to stop working which maybe nessiary to your development needs without some form of compensation.

although these agreements do give Microsoft alot of power and they do allows them to do alot, when you read the rights you actually have you'll find alot of the power they actually have is superficial at best.

they're allowed to know what the setup of your system is right now, however they're not allowed to check if you have a legally registered copy of windows (insane no?)
i would've thought more people would be more worried about the hardware protection being put into Processors now ... all 8th generation processors are going to have hardware protection for cetain applications, and although you might say
"oh well i just won't upgrade then"

in 2-3years time you know that just won't be an option open to you when every processor on the market has this protection, you can either stay in your safe past with the world of warez, piracy & hackers at your fingertips ... or you can actually have a normal speed system.
And we all know that very few of you could go that long without getting the latest hardware.

Ian T
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 01:53
'i don't have any problems allowing anyone to snoop around my HDD, i don't have anything to hide'

Nothing at all? I kind of pity you, if that's really true...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
SpellSword
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 03:10 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 03:31
Damnit! I just Downloaded that Trojan code (Thats what it truely is,
it's a MS-trojan pretending to be a security update.) Bastards...

I am 100% against AdWare (This is the hidden stuff pop-ups and
somesites download onto your computer, it can moniter everything
you do, and most of them are imperfect causing system crashes...)
And SpyWare (Pretty much the same as AdWare.)

I've disliked what MicroSoft has been doing for a long time. I won't
even touch XP. (God, that things never NEVER getting on my machine...
I hope...) after releasing crappified 2000 and ME, effectivly killing
off Dos support. Making it much easier to sneak AdWare/SpyWare into
your machine in XP. (And lot of general bad MS stuff.. I could go on
for hours but I'm trying to not enter into that rant.)

But this! This is definatly not right. I don't care who they are or
why they think they should sneak around in my machine. It should not
be allowed!!!!

On the other hand, I do agree that piracy is a major problem. Perhaps
this would kill of a majority of piracy? (Doubt full, it will most
likly simply hurt alot of small fish well leaving the big ones on
touched.) It would be nice to know that your game/application is
much more secure then it would be today. (I guess.) Still. I does
feel like MicroSoft is taking something, the internet will become
primarly theirs won't it? (Shit they've already got such a monoploy,
and it's not because their product is the best... which really sucks
cause if it was the best I might, maybe, be able to let alot of their
shit slide.)

To sneak this onto your computer... that really... REALLY pisses me
off, (Yes I know, how else would you get such a file onto someones
machine.) it feels almost like they've installed their own MS-Virus
on my machine. (A backdoor it is... grrr...)
My privacy has been violated.

People may say "If MS does this, hackers will surly take them out."
But the sad fact is, MS is a mega corporation that has enough money
and power to do what it pleases (Pretty much) hackers can not really
do enough damage to stop them, and besides, if someone attempted to
hack any MicroSoft location there is a huge chance they would be
caught. (Or they'd have fallen long ago.)

I think sadly MicroSoft's strangle hold on the Personal Computer world
will tighten, and continue to do so.

(If they attempt to crush any compitision by locking down their
programs on all MS-systems, I pray they're company falls for it.)

And now, a song that struck me as oppropriate for this topic:
Title: The Sound Of Silence.
Author(s): Simon & Garfunkel.
Album: Best Of Simon And Garfunkel.

"Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of
a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one deared
Disturb the sound of silence.

"Fools" said I,"You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the signs said, The words of the prophets
are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls.
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence."

------------------------------------------
When I dream, I carry a sword in one hand,
and a gun in the other...
SpellSword
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 03:12 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 03:33
[EDIT]

------------------------------------------
When I dream, I carry a sword in one hand,
and a gun in the other...
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 03:43
*plays the silent guitar

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Rob K
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 03:50
@Raven

Well Folks, there is always an alternative. Download a Live CD and give Linux a go (no installation necessary).

Unfortunately DBP is fixed as DirectX app for the forseeable future though.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
SpellSword
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 04:02 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 04:03
Heres a quick rewording that Falcon (The graphic artist I work with)
and I whipped up.


Title: The Sound Of Silence. (MircoSoft Remix)
Remixers: SpellSword & Red Falcon.

Hello Falcon, my old friend,
I've come to start a rant again,
Because this day while I was sleeping,
MicroSoft's techies came a creeping
And the update like a splinter in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.

With many screams I rant alone
An update that chilled me to the bone,
'Neath the halo of my desktop's lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the pop-up of
some stupid site
My curse split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And on my glowing screen I saw
Ten million people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing rants that voices never share
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of silence.

"Fools" said I,"You do not know
MicroSoft like a cancer grows.
Read my posts that I might teach you,
Create replies that I might reach you."
But my words like silent wingdings fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the signs said, The words of the prophets
are written on the forum walls
With uh... paint balls?
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence."


(This songs fun to play with, come on, everyone try rewording it. )

------------------------------------------
When I dream, I carry a sword in one hand,
and a gun in the other...
Ian T
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 04:44
Hard to reword if you don't know the tune...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 07:06
nope i have nothing to hide on my hdd... who would?
if your at a college, uni, work, etc... anywhere a network is being used - even your online severs. They're all legally allowed to be checked, edited and altered by the administrator without your permission.

although no doubt many people do have code, models, artwork, documents they'd rather were not public knowlage or available to everyone - we're not actually talking about a breach of privacy.

this is all just like the police really, although yes within your own home you're allowed to do most things you want to - we still have laws which give the police the right to check your home for anything they see fit if they attain a search warrent.
Search warrents aren't hard to actually achieve either... so by agreeing to install Mircosoft's OS your giving them the right to come in and check you hdd.

oki perhaps the porn under the bed might not look good to them, but as porn isn't illegal they'd probably flick through it and just throw it back, its not like they'll go out in the middle of your street and shout "HEY GUESS WHO HAS PORN UNDER HIS BED!"

your privacy is still kept, Mircosoft do not have the right to share your information or information they obtain with anyone without your permission, that would go against the very nature of the data protection acts in place in the US/Canada, UK & EU ... what they can do is use that data for thier own purposes, they can use it to track down pirates, use it to update your system when the server believes it is essential, use it to get debug reports from a wider selection of systems than any beta test ever could.

somehow your all believing that the adware that we're now used to in XP is mircosofts fault ... although the Messenger adverts are, but then how else do you expect them to keep giving you it free?

look at it for a section,

mIRC is $20/user
Aim is financed by AOL users
ICQ is also $20/user to turn off the adverts
Trillian comes in 2 versions free beta (which isn't supported and is only valid if your already using another messenger) and the $25/user version which can be setup and used on private servers
Yahoo!Pager also comes in 2 versions free user & business user (business's pay for it)
LycosPaws is free, but is completely useless and has tonnes of adverts.

so i mean if you look at it Mircosoft Messenger is the ONLY messenger which is free to download and use, it has the widest support, it has the widest server base, there is a free API SDK, there are tonnes of free features, suchas the new games as well as link points to the new Nector based services... add to this Microsoft have almost completely updated XP now to stop the Messenger Adware popups.

All i hear over and over again is how Microsoft are over stepping thier boundries, blah blah... did any of you actually read what the EULA actually said and read it carefully?
The extra powers Microsoft actually get are so minor if a REAL admin had that kinda power they'd be throwing thier arms up in an uproar because they can barely do anything.

Everything Mircosoft do is to make sure thier customers have the best possible service for the price they pay without having to pay out over and over and over again for all of these updates.

you think that they're money grubbing? did anyone have to pay for the .Net update? did they have to pay for messenger? how about DirectX? or all those updates for Office/Visual Studio/Windows?
Do you have to pay to learn howto program for Windows Systems?
Do you have to pay for the API's for Windows?
Do you have to pay licenses to release software on Windows?
Do they stop other developers developing alternative systems to thier own?

you know that last one is probably the most important question, becuase of the years rather than trying to beat the competition Microsoft try to incorporate BETTER systems into thier own.
Microsoft Office wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for IBM Lotus SmartSuite ... .Net wouldn't be what it is without Sun's Java.

if you want to bitch about what Mircosoft are doing then fine, uninstall Windows move to a Unix based OS and leave the whole world of Micosoft behind.

none of what is proposed should worry or really matter to anyone who is legally using Windows or any other Microsoft product. niether should it really bother you that a Server will be scanning your HDD for possible illegal files or the overall setup and stability or gathering debug reports or installing updates without you adding any information - which quite frankly it has done since Windows Millennium Edition and to be honest, it take alot of bother out of trying to figure out which update is right, which update will fixx specific problems ... it even takes the worry out of which update drivers you will need for the hardware your running.

WindowsXP comes with NTFS, on that if your really want to hide and secure files you don't want anyone to read it has a BUILT-IN Encryption system which you can store to disk and use to boot the system and those files will only be able to be accessed by the current user or any other user which has THAT encryption disk. If the files are taken from the disk and copyied they immediately fragment making them 100% useless.

as i've said before i have nothing to hide, not in my home & not on my computers ... whilst having Joe Publics trawling through my HDD would really piss me off and i would mind, but that isn't what Mircosoft are proposing now is it?

the only people i can see truely being opposed enough to stop using windows would be those who are either a)paranoid or b)have something to hide

either way i don't care.

MrTAToad
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 12:19
Cant say I've got anything to hide... much...
The main problem is that people is that people dont know what Microsoft would actually do - if they delete, say, DBPro on your system (even when its legal), because you not using Visual Studio .NET (or even more crass, the person doing it has a vendetta against TGC, Lee or someone), its says Microsoft can do it...

I dont think it would hold up legally though - it would be an unwanted invasion of privacy and would break (here anyway) the Human Rights Act.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins and other exciting things - oh my, yes!
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 14:14
Don't know the tune? Dude I feel old...

Hint : Run into a church to break up a wedding... erm... get off with some old slapper... erm....

Anyhows, overall tis not a good thing, but then I would say it is no different than people trying to access your PC today. True someone may just get your details from your PC, or whatever. It's just really really unlikely they will get your PC over the millions that are out there.

Not only that, but what exactly are you going to do? Same thing happened with activation and XP; everyone seemed like they wouldn't stand for it and it would be dropped. Didn't happen really. Ok, go to Linux (is pretty good on one of my PCs), but is highly likely not to do 100% what you want. Essentially MS has us my the short and curlies, and has done for many years.

At the end of the day, there is so much pirate/porn/general rubbish out there (I mean how many of you can say that you don't have any old copied music tapes? - assuming you haven't thrown them all out from newer tech) that nobody gives a monkey about one individual. Unless you are doing something incredibly dodgy. Which normally means selling stuff. I mean we all had a dodgy registered copy of Doom back around a decade ago, and I would bet big bucks that no-one would really give a monkeys (even then). But if you tried to sell it, say down the marketplace, then I'm pretty sure you would be slapped hard. Of course this only applies if you don't come from various countries (HK used to be good, apparently).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Wiggett
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 14:20 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 14:20
well i hate microsoft as much as the next computer user, so i'd have to say this is pretty bad. If they are allowed to send these application halting programs then who is to say that they cant send a program to stop people using an application that isnt under m$'s stranglehold in the future market, for instance, lets say ten years down teh track microsoft change their rules to state that if you want to make a product that is compatible with the windows operating system then you must pay microsoft an annual fee based on teh income you make from the product, and being that windows is used by the majority of the computer world, you'd have to put up with it just to sell your product. And with this whole m$ trojan thing they already would have the right to search your machine for renegade non m$ programs and shut them off. M$ are slowly strangling th emarket into their favour, even now they rule it, it can only get tighter, msn messenger is the best messenger service atm, cause its widespread, easy to use, and free, while most others arent. So after they get everyone on msn who is to say they wont start charging people to use it, adn cause the rest of the competition is gone you will be forced to pay for it. That is the overall m$ plan, fill the world with their product so that you cant do anything without it, then start charging service for it :/ just look at the xbox, they are loosing money on it but they dont care, as long as they flood the market and make it the most popular later on down the track they will corner the console market aswell, thats why i always buy nintendo "

yay i got db going again, now i can work on all these isometric games
Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 14:37 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 14:38
I think that's going over the top slighty. But for the paranoid I would say just have multiple machines (much like offices). One is used for all downloading, virus checking etc. then have another one that is used for when all has been checked out. Has it's problems, sure, but you wanted to be that paranoid. [EDIT] Obviously the second PC won't be connected to the internet/ network.

For the extreme though, then make a Faraday cage. Think that's how it's spelt, but it's been a long time since college, so forgive me.

But at the end of the day it's just little old you. MS really couldn't give a monkeys. Of course, as Raven was saying, if you *really* have a reason to be highlighted then fair enough. I mean if you are doing anything highly illegal then throw away the key methinks. What if MS software had flagged 911? (Highly unlikely I would have thought for that level of investigation for millions of PCs, but you never know). When it comes to a dodgy copy of Doom, or some XXX action (which should be legal to own in most countries, even if it isn't legal to produce - I've checked ), then they won't care.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Dave J
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 14:48 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 15:01
lol, ironically I have the illegal Sound of Silence mp3 on my PC... better delete it before Microsoft find out!

Edit: Also noticed something Raven said:

Quote: "Do you have to pay to learn howto program for Windows Systems?
Do you have to pay for the API's for Windows?
Do you have to pay licenses to release software on Windows?
Do they stop other developers developing alternative systems to thier own?
"

Those rhetorical questions are irrelevant because they're vital to Microsoft's success. The number of applications developed for Windows would have dropped significanlty if they charged for the API's, etc. and hence fewer apps means fewer reasons to buy the OS. It was a smart business move to make those sort of things free, it has nothing to do with them being 'kind', they're indirectly gaining money through those things anyway.

I have nothing against Microsoft, hell, I usually shake my head when other people scorn at them for monopolizing the industry, they're not doing anything wrong. Or at least they weren't until this happened. They're essentially giving themselves access to someone elses Personal Computer. Their private belongings. It's no different to trespassing and looking through someone's filing cabinet, despite wether you made that filing cabinet or not.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 16:02 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 16:12
oki so maybe it technically gives them the right to alter your HDD, however legally it doesn't ... as they still need to get certain things approved before they perminantly delete anything or such.

your more likely to find a new Quarentien area - however that would be assuming they abused these new privilages, more often than not i've noticed Mircosoft don't actually like to get involved in the politics of everything (which is why they're in court every other weeks) ... they don't really have a clue what the law legally allows them to do and not to do. (over 400 employees and none seem to say stuff like "i'm pretty sure that source is copywritten!" lol)

as i've said the encryption in NTFS and this new WFS should be enough to protect anything your really don't want them to touch, and if they break that even though its on thier own OS you can still do them for hacking (which would be ironically sweet )

you know it was only a matter of 7-8years ago when learning Microsoft Windows Programming was something you had to do in college, MSDN was just a pipedream, and the internet just couldn't cope with the sizes of SDKs making it just purely unviable to distribute them.

just to get a copy of the WindowsAPI along with the knowlage to use it would cost you around $40 for the CD & another $300 or so just for the quick tutorial course on the system.

it's only since the advent MSDN Online (late '98) that information has been freely available on thier APi's they're SDKs ... also remember that time used to be charged (no more than 4years ago) per minute for your internet time. This "unlimited" service for broadband or dialup we all enjoy today was just not really there - so you either were paying one hell of alot for a broadband connection else you were paying just as much ifnot more for a narrowband.

not to mention before '96 you could only access Mircosoft Online Database through a special Mircosoft service (which they charged for) ... same goes for when MSDN first hit, they charged for that too.

it has never been a case of being the key to thier success - they've simply found that if you give more people access you can get more people using it which later pays dividends
its easy to forget that development now is something open to everyone, not just those with years of experience.
even the full Windows Platform SDK's (the very core of windows) is free now - Mircosoft have just opened so much of the development environment up to as many people as they can.

obviously for thier own OS, but look on MSDN and you'll find tutorials on using OpenGL in VC++ or C ... you'll find Linux development papers ... all sorts

[edit-]
about the trespassing, i've grown up around mate who will just come and go as they please in your house.
to me, letting a someone you trust into your place is cool cause you know they're not likely to go around stealing all your furniture or crap - they're just gonna sit on your couch, probably watch TV, and can be annoying when you get some food like say some Carte Dor ice-cream shove it in the icebox right at the back and somehow one of the pesky buggers finds it and eats it...
and occasionally if they don't knock before comming into my room, and i'm kinda busy - well yeah that can be annoying to.

But still its all something you get used to - and i'd leave them incharge of the place if i'm away, cause ya know you trust them.
What i wouldn't do is let some stranger in my house and leave them alone ... mates i trust, strangers i treat like convicts until i get to know them (well you never know what someones like )

really mircosoft have never done anything towards me that would make me not trust them... as is i'm running Windows .Net Beta - so they pretty much have free reign anyways. never had files go missing, not noticed anything out of the ordinary, no real speed hits, no major internet speed hits, no access to my system gained without me clicking on the "active administrator" thing. They always seem more bothered about figuring out why something goes on the frizt than if i have anything bad on my system.

Dave J
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 17:58
But looking at every other post in this topic suggests people don't trust them.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
the_winch
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 18:17 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 18:20
It doesn't matter if you trust microsoft or not. If microsoft can get in and have read and write access so can other people. I quite like not haveing to run a virus scanner, I quite like not having to constantly remove hundreds of adware programs that are now much easier for other companies to install just by me connecting to the internet. I like using an indepentantly developed firewall that treats microsoft programs like any other. If there past history is anything to go by it won't be long before a hole is discovered.

The more programs that accept incomming connections from the internet the less secure your system is. When it comes to network security microsoft don't have a clue, opening up a allready problematic system even more is just stupid. It looks to me to be if it isn't broken fix it until it is stratagy. What is wrong with the current system?
8truths
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 20:25
MS gets bashed because they are on top.

Information gathering is never as insidious as people think. A lot of the remote access MS has tried to add to its software comes from service calls, and the fact that many callers are unclear on what is what in Windows. When asked about shutting down a service, they say, "But what does my water bill have to do with my internet connection?"

As long as MS keeps it so I can cut such things out in the registry, I'm not upset. When they get it to the point that even editing the reg doesn't turn the trick, then I will be upset.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
Ian T
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 21:19
'MS gets bashed because they are on top.'

Wrong, wrong, wrong... I'm sure if you look around, you'll find some anti-microsoft sites that have a very long list of very good reasons why they should be taken down.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
SpellSword
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 23:21 Edited at: 6th Jul 2003 23:23
The Good:
1. A decrease in piracy!!! (Hurray!)
2. A better ability to diagnose system problems and provide patches.

The Bad:
1. MicroSoft has even more access to your machine.
2. MicroSoft can now install updates without me manual Downloading them?!!?
3. MicroSoft has the capibility to lock down programs. (I hope they
nail Kazaa and Napster like stuff to the wall, those things are a
menace. But I do not like the idea that they have this kind of power
over my box. Sure it's their OS... but still...)
4. MicroSoft will monitor your machine. (God only knows what they'll
use what they learn for.)

Other Stuff:
1. Bets on wether the price of CD's will not drop but instead rise
dispite a drop in Music Piracy?
2. Switch to Linux? To many people use Windows, I'd loose to many
potential players. (Then again, maybe I'll load it up on one of my
machines and try it out, heard alot of good about it. It's free right?)

A peak into the future:
A MicroSoft controlled world goverment by 2010!

(I don't hate MicroSoft cause their on top, I distrust them because
of... to many reasons to list. This being the latest one of them.)

------------------------------------------
When I dream, I carry a sword in one hand,
and a gun in the other...
Mentor
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 00:16
how about MY right to have total privacy on MY machine? when I can`t install or run the OS without connecting to the net?, when I change my system config again and get told I have to buy the OS licence all over again because I am assumed to be a thief? when Micro$oft have been KNOWN to alter their OS to sabotage other companies software (even when they where in the middle of the antitrust hearing and the software was being presented by the prosecution).
would you put your personal diary on your PC?, steamy messages to the girlfriend?, with Micro$ofts history do you realy think they can keep that connection secure?, who`s liable when your credit card number turns up across half the planet?, I don`t care what the EULA says, this is MY PC and my information, I have to have the OS to use the PC and the software out there, what I payed for the disk was MORE than fair recompense to Micro$oft.
and no I won`t use a MAC and don`t want one, No I don`t want to go pure Linux, I want to run software I can buy in a shop, play current games and run DB, Gates can take a flying leap at a meat shredder and welcome to it, Micro$oft should be sued for holding the development of the computer industry back 25yrs, just how stable and capable do you think the modern PC would be if Linux had 1/10th of the money put into it that Micro$oft have stolen from users over the years?.
I could go on forever......GAH! they make me sick

Mentor.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 00:31
yeah but what ya'll forget is no matter how good your firewall is, if your online then you have ZERO privacy from those who want the information on your system.

Sure Norton is the best at stopping simple hackers in thier tracks, but you have a better data espionage hacker wanting your data or even someone who understand hacking enough from the current world hacking circles - your system is as good as open.

its like having a conversation in a public place, if the converstation is sensitive just DONT have it in a public place.
if you're that worried about security then just have 2 hard disks, one for offline and one for online.

you think that Linux/Unix systems are secure from hackers? if so them i've sure you've got a good sense of humour

Mircosoft are THE biggest company, this is why hackers target them... with 90% of the worlds machines using thier OS, why the hell would a hacker want to learn howto hack a linux system?
The security within Mircosoft isn't bad, its just the pure fact of them breeds better hackers daily.

i just seems like people want to have freedom, but they also want to have a little bubble they can crawl into... maybe there should be a feature which windows has a "safe" directory which no one can access except you - but then we're back to the whole NTFS encryption system which is already in play.

Solidz Snake
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 00:42 Edited at: 7th Jul 2003 00:43
i'm thinking of renting 'Pirates of the Silicon Valley' and 'Anti-Trust' movies, since we're on the topic.

I've watched Anti-Trust before, so any comments on the Pirates of Silicon Valley movie?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

8truths
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:05
Pirates was a bit too heavy on the script and not enough on the history. There is a strong sense throughout that liberties were taken in portraying folks.

Back to topic . . .

If your info is so sensetive, keep it on a computer w/o an internet connection. Burn all your updates to CD from a connected machine, and then run them from disc.

The notion of a totally locked-down system is impossible. If you can get to your data, someone else can, too.

Why do you think companies and univiersities paranoically grind their hard drives up when they sell their old machines?

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
Ian T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 08:26
'The notion of a totally locked-down system is impossible. If you can get to your data, someone else can, too.'

A good locked-down system is like a safe with the key somewhere in the house for the bandit to find. An average system has the key attached to the safe.

('So you keep your pistol in a drawer in your study-- with the key hanging from the handle?' 'Yes...')

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 12:07
not sure that'd be a deterant when all your allowed in the gun are blanks

Wiggett
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 15:12
but hackers are more aimed at bigger companies than someones personal computer, unless that person is doing something really cool, but your average home user is often hacked, sure they get viruses from dodgey emails or downloads but not some guy sitting at a computer trying to see what joe blow is doing. And someone called my post paranoia, well considering a few posts down its said "i want to run the os so i can use all the software i have", which is basically proving what i was saying, m$ are making it so if you want this new game you must have their licence to run it. same with flooding the market with xboxes u want this game u need an xbox, its just normal business tactics on a much alrger scale due to teh funds they have and the lack of decent competition, i mean who'd buy a mac to play games, and linux requires a knowledge of how to use a computer higher than that of your average user (hell even i dont know how, but i've never tried ). The way it should be is if you buy teh os then its yours to do with what you like andn they have no claim to look at your machine, but i think with windows software they state that ur only buying the licence, this is somethin that should have been stopped a while ago, but looks like its too late now.

yay i got db going again, now i can work on all these isometric games
Dave J
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 15:15
Quote: "but not some guy sitting at a computer trying to see what joe blow is doing."


That's what backdoor virii like Sub7 are for, some loser will infect you and then toy around with your CD or whatever just because they're bored lol.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
8truths
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 00:32
Actually, I knew a shop owner in town who got busted for running Sub7 on people's machines he fixed so they'd keep coming in for repairs. MS and an insurance firm basically signed him off on a deal saying he'd face a ton of fines and jail if he ever did business again.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
heartbone
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 01:31
Just to show M$ that they have gone too far, I am sure that organizations will hack the M$ doorway into your XP systems. No virus scanner could stop the attack, only denying "Microsoft" access to your machine would you be secure on that front. That secret doorway probably will not stay secret for long.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
Matto
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 04:58
They are taking the biscuit now with all this scareing of the customers, quite litterally making people who pay for their products feel like they are being policed by M$ without any particular justifiable reason. just that they think you and the rest of the world are upto no good, even if your not doing anything wrong your apparently still a supsect because you have their software.

Well there is no doubt in my eye that they are up to no good, I wish I never bought XP with it's ridiculous activation process, it is incredibly bad for anyone remotely interested in upgrading their own PC's, and I advise to look into other options for an OS if you do like upgrading your gear, I built my system and installed XP, activated it (begrudgingly, but felt it was ok to do this once), I then updated my bios it then told me I had 3 days to re-activate because my comp had changed too much since the last time I used it???(IT WAS THE SAME COMP WITH AN UPDATED BIOS), so I did try and re-activate it anyway and it said I needed to buy another licence as my machine had changed too much!! after calling the M$ exchange they now have to deal with this stupid affair called XP,I typed in 46 numbers on the phone, then I reeled off the same 46 numbers to someone who then spoke back another 30 odd numbers and finally after some fuss I got it activated again..

I thought it must have been a major thing to upgrade my Bios and hope I don't have to do it again, but when the same thing happend on upgrading my Graphics card!!! a graphics card for crying out loud.. nearly everyone I know upgrades that!, any respect for m$ and any slight notion I had of buying another M$ product went right out the window, this distrust that they so willingly deal out and make anyone buying any of their products more than aware of after using it for a couple of hours is pathetic, if I buy something it's mine, until I find no need for it or give it away, not still theirs and leave them able to try and call me a theif or try and make me feel like one for buying their OS.., next time I will support someone deserving and more aware of the fact that people like to upgrade their machines without having to activate something they paid over £80.00 for many, many times, I wish I stayed with Windows 98 personally.

We know there are pirate copies of stuff out there but there's no reason good enough to try and take it out on the people that actually do buy the products..

This won't go away until lots of people take a stance that supports other OS's Mac and Lin seem the obvious choices.. if there was more support from games companies and large software companies for other OS's (which I think is starting to happen) then there would be more support for these other systems, we need a reason to buy something else is what is boils down to. Although I do feel like kicking myself in the chops and just moving out of M$'s town for good, and I will once XP's life has been used up, or when it annoys me so much I can't bare to use it anymore...

AMD XP 2500+,512 DDR RAM 2700, GF FX 5600, 256DDR,SBLive 5.1,Win XP
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 08:36
not really most people won't even know about it, most don't even realise what Microsoft take and put on your systems as is.

but quite frankly all this parania crap is begining to get on my nerves... if you don't like the new EULA then fine swap to Linux or something - most of them have also got away with some far out EULA's in thier time.

Windows is not the only OS... you choose to use it, if you choose to use it then shutup because you have no right to complain Mircosoft do this to improve the product not to have a free run to commit illegal acts.
if your not using Windows then just bugger off, because it doesn't affect you does it!

in the end even throughout the bitching and complaining most of you will use Windows, if you use it legitimately then what the hell do your REALLY have to worry about?

that is a serious question ... ask yourself that very carefully, if your so against this WHY are you against this - do you have something to hide?

Sure i don't like the CCTV cameras all over the highstreet here, but i know that they're installed to make sure that i'm safe and being protected NOT so that someone can zoom in on people getting it on in the Park, or to harrass people for no reason.

i mean god, are you all so paranoid and guilty of something that this actually bothers you?

Eric T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 09:09
Quote: "Windows is not the only OS... you choose to use it, if you choose to use it then shutup because you have no right to complain Mircosoft do this to improve the product not to have a free run to commit illegal acts."


Finnally its been said. But still microsoft technicly would not be commiting an illegal act being as when you install Windows if you read that huge liscence/terms and agreements that is included you will learn alot of stuff, like what rights microsoft has(but i don't think any of you even bother to ever read that, you just click yes or agree). You will learn that microsoft has right's to improve/update on the Microsoft products in your computer with out your knowing.They rarely do it but they have the right. Another part of that agreement is that you may not host pirated files. That makes a MP3 of a retail song, or a avi of a retail movie, if you are caught that gives microsoft the right to search your pc. You may also not know that microsoft already has spy software on your pc from when you install your os. MacOS's have it also(so the companys always know what you do, its mainly used for knowing what the public does most so they can improve on the next edition of the os or make a new patch). And if i'm not mistaken, most of the security patches have spy programs inbedded, to know what your doing. So it is nothing new for microsoft to spy on you, theyv'e been doing it forever. And if your complaining about, then i guess you must have somthing to hide. and if your that paranoid, Get linux.

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
8truths
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 10:16
How would you ever define full disclosure?

Would MS have to provide you with the full option to not install each file? Every DLL, EXE, JPG, or CPL?

Then, of course, they'd pop-up one of those messages like "If you don't install this file, your system may suddenly display Cyrillic characters and e-mail death threats to whitehouse.gov. Do you really wish to not install this file?"

Then: "No . . . c'mon, chief. Everybody's installing it. It's OK. One kiss. Yeah . . . y'know you like it . . ."

MS doesn't really care what you do with you computer.

There are a lot worse protection systems out there than what MS is using. Look at stuff like C-Dilla. The protection for Swish (an easy Flash program) is such a pain that you cannot even uninstall it then re-install!

Copy protection? Gosh . . .

Isn't this just the wolf and the sheep dog? Hackers-crackers punch in, doing their thing, and the dog tries to stop them. I suppose occassionally the dog screws up and hurts one of the sheep. At least the MS dog can apologize and pay up if the damages are too severe.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
Wiggett
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 16:35
well raven im sorry but i just dont trust m$'s power at the moment and i am concerned with where their dominating the market could take the computer industry, hell it could turn otu to eb a nazi regime :/ anyway, another argument would be the bandwidth, how big are these files? because i have to pay for 3 gig of space including download and upload, after that 3 gig im cut back to a 28k modem speed, if microsoft are downloading to my machine, then they should pay me an amount to cover the costs of my isp service. Sure if its like they only send you a 1k file, but thats still 1k i could have used surfing the internet at the speed that i have paid for. Will m$ pay for a percentage of my bandwidth? i doubt it.

yay i got db going again, now i can work on all these isometric games
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 17:24
ya know from what i've heard of Aussie ISP's you've got some of the most backward ISPs in the world...

surely you have AOL there will infinate time for a fixxed price plan... i mean AOL are bloody everywhere and each country i've been to have been a fixxed price plan.

Mircosoft can't stop you from putting on a bandwidth capper, or turning off your internet access - and somehow i doubt it'll be a case of downloading files without your concent. Even now there is an option to change the setup of the automatic updates.

if you don't want to trust Mircosoft then don't and don't use thier OS, as i've said it ain't the only OS - you're not tied to having to use it ... there are plenty of other options.

BeOS Max is free to download from SourceForge.org and it fully supports DirectX and Windows Applications

Cash Curtis III
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Posted: 11th Jul 2003 00:56
this isnt good. And I just got WinXP a few days ago.

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