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Geek Culture / Newsletter 64 - May 2008

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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st May 2008 17:50
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http://www.thegamecreators.com/data/newsletter/newsletter_issue_64.html
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 1st May 2008 17:55
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Another great Newsletter

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Plystire
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Posted: 1st May 2008 18:07
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OMG! I'm in the Newsletter!!!

When did this happen?


The one and only,


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James H
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Posted: 1st May 2008 19:47
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Hmm...this Leadwerks Game Engine 2.0 - it is a library or does it have its own interface?

Quote: "Leadwerks Game Engine 2 is available as a library to be used with C++, Visual Basic, PureBasic and other languages. It can also be used as a standalone development environment using Leadwerks Script, an object-oriented language."


Ok, may seem obvious, but if it can produce a game without a compiler, then what was the point in FPSCX10? What will the be the point in DBPX10? I`m starting to feel ripped off - that price is way too high IMO. I own a fair few TGC products(around £300), and unless there is a clear definition between them and this new engine, then I`ll look into recovering as much of the money spent as is possible. Up until now I`ve been very happy with the products, having only bought most of them less than 12 months. Oh and if this turns out to be a sort of replacement for DBPX10 then thats fine. But for that price, well TGC obviously took there eye off the ball IMO. At the convention they said they would be looking at DBPX10 as more of an upgrade than a seperate product if they could, in which case then I`m offended.

As that was the first article I haven`t read the rest yet but it will be as informative and enjoyable to read as always no doubt
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Leadwerks
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Posted: 1st May 2008 20:00
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Quote: "Ok, may seem obvious, but if it can produce a game without a compiler, then what was the point in FPSCX10? What will the be the point in DBPX10?"

Leadwerks Engine 2.0 is a different approach from DBPro and FPSCX10. It allows a lot of the same high-end features, but it is never going to be as simple as FPSC. I have a background modding commercial engines like Unreal, so I have put in a lot of ideas I picked up from those engines.

I'd say FPSC is an easy-to-use program with a lot of nice high-end features. DBPro is a game creation language. Leadwerks Engine is more like a game engine along the lines of the Crysis or STALKER engines...it's sort of like if the STALKER engine was compiled as a DLL.

Leadwerks Engine will never be as easy to use as FPSC, and it isn't a compiled programming language like DBPro. But it has some good features like very large terrain and a good lighting system. It really just depends on what your goals are, and what you feel comfortable working with.
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 1st May 2008 20:10
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Quote: "but if it can produce a game without a compiler"


Where does it say it doesn't use a compiler?

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Jeku
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Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 1st May 2008 20:33
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Wow, the Leadwerks engine looks pretty sweet One question: what's the licensing for this? Would a developer have to pay any royalties, etc.?


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James H
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Posted: 1st May 2008 20:42
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Quote: "Where does it say it doesn't use a compiler? "


It doesn`t, but my point was it doesn`t require the additional purchase of a compiler or any compiler that doesn`t come with the product.

Leadwerks - I use DBP a lot more than FPSC, mainly for one reason. I bought it first, and when I did get FPSC, I found it was not that much easier to use than DBP and far more limited. Currently FPSCX9 has more support than FPSCX10 a quote from a reply email from Lee (last week):
Quote: "DBPX10 is still some way off being moved to a position where it can be made available. I really want to get the FPSC and DBP products under Windows XP solid in the eyes of most users before I delve into DX10 again."

Whats wrong with producing DBPX10 with this product wrapped? Code doesn`t require too much optimising on high-end machines for DBP projects, I have one that definately works, I just need to replace a LOT of media, add some more AI, but first I need a story and theme, then theres the shaders to learn, we just need proper multicore access and DX10.
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Leadwerks
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Posted: 1st May 2008 20:42
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The licensing is the same as DBPro or something like that...make commercial games, no royalties. The only thing that would be verboten would be adding to or modifying the engine, and then selling it as your own engine or game creation software. Obviously we don't want someone passing off our hard work as their own. I will have the EULA written up before March 19.
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tobi453
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Posted: 1st May 2008 21:10 Edited at: 1st May 2008 21:11
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Quote: ""The only thing that would be verboten would be...""


Are you from germany, switzerland or austria?

FINAL VERSION RELEASED!!!!
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st May 2008 21:11
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Thanks for the reply. One other question, will the actual engine source be released to those who purchase a license? Or will the library be available as just a DLL for those of us that want to use C++?


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 1st May 2008 21:16
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Quote: "it doesn`t require the additional purchase of a compiler or any compiler that doesn`t come with the product."


It says it runs on "C++, Visual Basic, PureBasic and other languages", which all use compilers.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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BatVink
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Posted: 1st May 2008 21:43
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James H, The Game Creators specialise in game creating solutions. At the extreme, they could have stopped at DarkBASIC Classic. Today, you get many options, some written by TGC themselves, others sold through TGC because they believe they are best in their class.

Theoretically, you would pick the product that suits your skillset and stick with it. Realistically, it's all affordable enough (or free) for many people to experiment with more than one option. I'm a working guy with a hobby I enjoy, so I'm one of those that experiments with more than one option. A company doesn't stop bringing new products to fill other niches just because some people are happy with what they've got.

So...don't get mad because there are new products! Personally, I'm grateful that I have many choices under one roof.
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Leadwerks
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Posted: 1st May 2008 22:10
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Quote: "Are you from germany, switzerland or austria?"

Nein, Ich komme auf California.

Quote: "One other question, will the actual engine source be released to those who purchase a license?"

No.

I do not see Leadwerks Engine as a product competing with FPSC or DBPro. They all use different approaches, and have different strengths. LE even uses a different API...OpenGL.
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James H
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Posted: 1st May 2008 22:12 Edited at: 1st May 2008 22:18
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I`ve been to the site and looked in detail at what this product has to offer, which I might add is a lot. Ok so maybe it can`t be used to produce games on its own. I see what your getting at, but what I`m trying to highlight is that this product will negate the need for DBPX10 if it can be utilised in DBPX9, and if its not compatable with DBP(the site states "almost any other language"), then no problem, I`ll wait for DBPX10, as long as we get multicore with X10 for a lot less than £75 having waited so long. By not detailing one of TGC`s key products as compatable is what worried me. Now I don`t feel so much ripped off, more like having to wait for no reason. If this product works so well, then why can`t it be wrapped to DBPX10, Lee has stated to me that producing DBPX10 won`t actually take that long, its all the other things he`s got to do first. I`m not trying to start any form of heated discussion here, or trying to sound like a know-it-all when I don`t.

edit:
Batvink - sorry that I come across as mad, in fact up till now I`ve been in awe of the key products for some time.
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Jeku
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Posted: 1st May 2008 22:22
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Well, I just preordered. Now for the waiting

@James H - The way I look at it is there's TGC's core team which makes products focused on Direct3D. Their website also sells third party engines (PlayBasic, Leadwerks Engine) which are self-contained and not compatible with each other. I would be very surprised if the Leadwerks engine was compatible with DBP as it's using OpenGL. If you're interested in Leadwerks I would suggest downloading a free copy of Visual Basic Express and running it from there. I assume it will be compatible with the express versions of MS' .NET languages.


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James H
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Posted: 1st May 2008 23:31 Edited at: 1st May 2008 23:38
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Jeku - thanks but no thanks. As Batvink correctly stated I should choose the software based on my skillset though "sticking with it" would not be the advice I`d give. I guess the product is no doubt brilliant, so I guess my real issue is with DBP.

edited(spelling)
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tobi453
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Posted: 1st May 2008 23:44
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Is it possible to use Leadwerks Engine with linux?

FINAL VERSION RELEASED!!!!
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Leadwerks
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Posted: 1st May 2008 23:59 Edited at: 2nd May 2008 00:06
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WINE (Linux Windows emulation thing) has a fatal error where it cannot create a VBO larger than the desktop resolution. So trying to create a shadowmap larger than the desktop res under WINE would result in an error.

It would be possible for me to compile a version that ran directly on Linux, and I have run the engine on Linux before, but it would take some work to test it, and I am not sure there is a demand for it.

Since the engine uses OpenGL, Macintosh support is possible as well, but I do not know when or if that would occur. I don't even have a Mac.

We are programming the engine with C++ and C# right now. There is no reason VB, PureBasic, or a similar language would not work, it is just a matter of writing the header files.

So the simple answer is that the engine runs on Windows only. Right now I want to focus on Vista and XP.
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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 00:22
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Just to clarify, I can use the Leadwerks engine in an OO way, right? In C++, as you know, you can write a game procedurally or using an OO framework. Hopefully there's no issues with using it this way


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Leadwerks
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 00:23 Edited at: 2nd May 2008 00:24
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The API is procedural, in order to keep things simple and provide compatibility with the most languages:
http://www.leadwerks.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

I have found that an OO design is good for your own programming, but it is easier for end users when you just expose a simple procedural interface.
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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 00:26
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Does this mean I can't use it in an OO framework?


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Leadwerks
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 00:45 Edited at: 2nd May 2008 00:46
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I don't know what you mean by "use it in an OO framework" so I can't answer that. If you look at the command set, it already is object-oriented. The values the engine passes back when you load a mesh or create an entity are the pointers to the object.

It would be possible to copy my object classes in your application, but I don't recommend doing this, because if I change anything internally all your declarations would be wrong. I think the way I have the API set up is the simplest to work with and provides the most compatibility with different languages.
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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 00:59
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Alright no problem, I think it will work the way I expect. I'm not used to using a 3rd party engine in C++, so I want to make sure it fits what I'm used to. I've been using Direct3D and C++ in my games since 2003, with my own classes, my own data structures, etc. As long as I can, say, swap out the Direct3D calls with the Leadwerks calls then it's all good


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Leadwerks
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 01:08
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That's how I handle the physics lib I use; it has a procedural interface, and I program my own physics objects and they internally interface with the dll.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 01:44 Edited at: 2nd May 2008 01:46
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If you would like any Mac and/or Linux testing done, then, I'll be happy to help - both of these OS's need an easy-to-use 3D system. Neither Irrlicht or Ogre are particularly nice, and both have poor documentation.

And of course, DBPro isn't availiable (natively) for either.

Visit my web site for real bangin' stuff at http://www.nicholaskingsley.co.uk
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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 02:00
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Just for the record I think it's great to finally have an affordable Shader 3.0 engine. There's far too many engines that are SM2.0 and below, and while those were great back in 2005, we need something better that doesn't cost $250k. By the looks of the screenies and the YouTube video on your site your engine looks truly "next-gen".

Do you have other videos that show off your engine?


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Tom J
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 18:46
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For the leadwerks engine (which looks great, obviously) how would it work: would the engine do all the rendering and physics of objects, with everything else (i.e. The gameplay) sorted out in a programming language like VB? I'm just confused a bit in that area. Considering trying out a new language to use this

[/potentially stupid question]
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Leadwerks
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Posted: 2nd May 2008 19:43 Edited at: 2nd May 2008 19:44
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Quote: "would the engine do all the rendering and physics of objects, with everything else (i.e. The gameplay) sorted out in a programming language like VB?"

Exactly. I think it is silly to dilute the main engine with things like AI, which are highly open to interpretation. I prefer to only put what the end user can't program in the main engine, and then have code examples showing how to do higher-level stuff like AI and gameplay logic.

See the wiki link above for documentation (in progress) of the command set.
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Sasuke
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Posted: 3rd May 2008 00:24
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Quote: "OMG! I'm in the Newsletter!!! "


Same here, I though you had to ask to be in the newsletter, guess not.

Leadwerks Engine looks interesting, I'll be keeping track.

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
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