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Geek Culture / Linux without altering Windows setup

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David T
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 15:45
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I strongly recommend Knoppix Linux (http://www.knoppix.net) - it is a version of linux which does not involve any modification to the hard disk - just download the ISO image, bnurn it to a CD, put the CD in the drive and start up your pc and you'll be running... Linux!

And when you get bored, just take out the CD and restart your PC and use windows

The download is only 699MB, not a problem for anyone with broadband (4 hours it took me).
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 16:00
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Yes, I've used it Its on the PCFormat DVD (which for some reason, one of my DVD drives cant read it).

Its fine for running off the CD, but has the inherent Linux problems - my soundcard (a SB Audigy) isn't recognised, although the networking system is. The graphics card isn't.

The layout of all the menus is just messy - just doesn't have the style as Windows (especially XP).

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 18:56
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NTFS

Not gonaa work here

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8truths
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 20:22
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MrT . . . Have you tried compiling the ALSA drivers for it? That worked for me, even on my VM setup.

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Ian T
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 21:20
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699? That wouldn't fit on my CDs, they say they're 700 megs but they're really 665...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 21:58
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I couldn't be bothered to download the Linux drivers for the sound card etc - after all, I would have to re-install the things every time its used.

Martyn - dont worry about NTFS, it reads the PC drives okay.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins and other exciting things - oh my, yes!
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 6th Jul 2003 22:39
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nope, apparently not, it dont work i tell ya

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 00:02
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my linux runs on NTFS... but then i've got RedHat.
personally i hate all the fart-arsing around with drivers all the time - atleast with Windows even if you can't find the drivers you have generics to fall back on, might not be fast but atleast they work.

not that i know why anyone who actively install Linux willingly without needing it for a business purpose, photoshop runs faster in it (ALOT faster) which is why i generally use it, so does Softimage and such ... even then though is in a .Net Encapulation Environment so i don't have to quite windows or anything.

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 00:16
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The Linux on CD reads NTFS file too - copied some files to the tmp directory & tried to play it (but couldn't because it doesn't recognise the soundcard).

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins and other exciting things - oh my, yes!
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jeffmosesuk
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:11
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Problem is Linux dont work with anything (10 usb ports being used at mo!) but then again windows aint great x-d
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8truths
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:12
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MrT -- I haven't had to redo the ALSA driver. Set it up once and it's been happy since. It covers a lot of cards; really the only good way to get a lot of old ISA cards to work.

Linux and NTFS files . . . ah . . . the easiest way to get into XP without a password.

Most Linux distros can read a ton of filesystems, including the bigges, such as FAT32, HFS, and NTFS.

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jeffmosesuk
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:15
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so, any one made their own OS with DB ?
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A_M
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:32
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I can recommend dragonlinux (http://dragonlinux.sf.net), just download it and extract to somewhere on a windows/dos partition (I don't think NTFS will work though), reboot in safe mode with command prompt and run the setup file.

I can't manage to run startx though, must've made some mistake in xf86config (me = linux n00b), the screen just goes blank.

/ Andreas Mattsson
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Eric T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 01:40 Edited at: 7th Jul 2003 01:43
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I think i'll stick with redhat 8 (gonna get 9 as soon as a pull the 35$ outta my arse), I'd rather dual boot any day, instead of running a os outta my slow dvd rom. Besides haveing 3 hard drives and 4 os's (xp, 98, rh 8, nt) ain't gonna hurt my pc, or take up space(seeing as this pc's HD's equal up to 220 GB)

*(Edit)* Jeff, If your gonna make a os, i strongly recomend c++. my os(eRic OS 0.1) was definitly made in c++, but my os is glitchy as hell. I don't think it is possible to make a multitasking os in DB, but you could make a os, it would just suck.

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Ian T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 08:21 Edited at: 7th Jul 2003 08:22
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Make your own OS with DB?

Easy!




It's just like Windows!

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Eric T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 09:00
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lmao, you got that true, except it dosen't give a "FATAL ERROR" message, it gives you a:
Quote: "this doohickey is not coresponding with the internal whachimmicallit, in other words i'm gonna make you shut down your app just so you have to re open it, oh and all data not saved will be lost teeeheeehee. "


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 09:10
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lmao DarkbasicOS ... can just see the requirements now

Pentium4 1.2Ghz
256Mb Ram
8Mb Gfx Direct3D Card (but not an SiS)
DirectX 7.0
Mircosoft Windows 95 and above

hehee

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FieldDoc
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 11:10
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lmao @ Mouse

I have RH 9. Since I really only use my PC for DBPro I rarely use it

When are DB gonna support OpenGL!!!!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 11:14
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never... Lee has stated that catagorically and there are alot of sound reasons behind it.

personally i support Lee's choice to stick exclusively with DirectX ... if you want it on Linux then Microsoft sell core development licenses for the DirectX source for $1,800,000 - if your have the cash convert it to Unix for everyone.

of course it'd mean totally rewriting the core from C++ to C... setting up all the variables to use a global setup that is subserviant of other APi's other than the standard Windows ones. etc, etc ... lol

not to mention Unix is a bitch to program for

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Eric T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 12:24
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Quote: "Unix is a bitch to program for "


You got that right!!

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MrTAToad
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 12:49
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8truths - Normally you wouldn't, but dont forget this is Linux on a CD - it cant write back to it...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins and other exciting things - oh my, yes!
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David T
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Posted: 7th Jul 2003 19:40
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Quote: "NTFS

Not gonaa work here "


I have used Knoppix on NTFS and it works fine

People say that linux is rubbish because it doesn't run windows programs. But that's like saying French is rubbish because it has no German words in the language. Stupid.

Plus, you may all say that windows sucks beause of the error messages, but I'm sure that is everyone used linux the errors would soon crop up. Also, the whole reason that everyone uses windows is because its a great OS.

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8truths
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 00:35
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Plus, WINE is out there to help. Linux is getting there, let's be fair, both on its own and for compatibility with the Windows API. But, it is still very threatening to end users.

MT -- that was a case where I needed to tally the info. Sorry.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 02:44
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RedHat9 is pretty all inclusive... but even so there is no way that i'd choose it over Windows without there being a good reason.

might just be personal preference, but Unix based OS's are just not even in the same ballpark as Windows - despite all thier little gimmics to add Windows support, quite frankly they're never going to be as big as Windows without taking the same ideals that Microsoft have.

most Linux OS's are free to download (by thier very nature they have to be), they are also open source which means that you can program for them at the lowest level without much hassle.

that said, the adverage Joe Public doesn't give a crap if you can program low level ... they don't give a crap about how the memory works.
All they care about is that the OS they're using will run the program they want to without a problem.

although each Linux can run on the same kernel, they do not all have the same comptibility, they don't all have the same UI systems, they don't all have the same 3D Engines, or the same drivers.

what endeers almost everyone to purchase Windows over the free Linux is the simple fact that everything you need and want is all under one roof designed specifically by the exacty same company to work in perfect sync with each other.

DirectX & MFC or WinAPI will run seemlessly with each other... .Net will run seemlessly with ActiveX and Explorer... even Linux/Unix setups have designed interfaces to run perfectly fine with Windows.

the ONLY time that windows screws up, is when you add in a third party thing which was never designed for Windows in mind.
Delphi for example - is designed to operate on its own system which enables it to crossplatform... however without direct setups for Windows this makes it very dodgy, specifically when accessing memory.

Linux is not a useless OS... it just is not in the same league for the adverage user as Windows is - there is just no denying that Linux was never and i doubt will ever be something that appeals to the adverage user market.

most of you can't even run these versions of Linux without encountering problems, and there are alot of users here which know more about computers and how they work than any adverage user ever will!
Alot of you have grown up around DOS and low level OS's and should be understanding what is roughly going on... and yet ya'll have problems.

Seriously Linux is NOT for home use, and its pure setup isn't even something i'd recommend for programming use - really its a fantastic platform for Artists, Composers & Editors ... it just isn't something for everyone to use.

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the_winch
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 04:09 Edited at: 8th Jul 2003 04:09
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A linux based os is just waiting for someone to deliver it to the masses. Apart from playing games linux has a place. It's free and easy to setup so the average computer user can't break it. I was considering getting hold of some old computers 233mhz abd above and creating a cd that would resore the system to it's original state easerly and selling them. No stupid licences to worry about no getting asked to fix them in 2 months because the user deleted a system file or got a virus. If it does get messed up just put in the cd ask a question or two and a short while later working computer.

Even the mayor pc manufactures don't even make driver cds that install the correct drivers for the system automatically. Some can't even supply drivers that work. They make the whole process a lot more difficult than it has to be and proberly make a lot of money from the support calls.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 04:17
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Quote: "easy to setup"

?? i have 18 emails here from db users that seem to say otherwise

people i know use it becuase they think it is less capable of catching a virus or is more hackproof ... thing is - if Linux became mainstream you'd find out just how simple it is to hack into.

even i can break a Linux firewall, and i'm by no far stretch a hacker - its security ranges from pathetic to why did they even bother to put up the illusion. and virus can be rewritten and more are being done so for Unix systems simply because more and more companies are using it for online use.

its a hackers playground and a virus developers paradise, just like Windows95 was ... Mircosoft have spent the last decade improving security within Windows, it is THE most secure OS there is.
It is the simplest to develop for, it has the biggest tech support setup, and more importantly to a developer is you only have to develop to run on a single system, not several versions of the same system.

most driver developers just don't touch it because of the variations, the only way Linux COULD possible make it is if they standardise - and that would take away everything that Linux stands for.

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Eric T
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 09:15
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hell the only reason i ever did start RH Linux was a learning tool(part of my A+ class at the end for extra credit or sumthin), but it caught on me, well not really, I just liked playing with the source code that came with it I made some freaky sh*t altering it a little bit.

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 11:07
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linux is easy to hack into cause you can get the source code for te kernal easily. Windows on the other hand advertises security risks and unless you auto update your windows server then updating can take place up to 48 hours after a patch is released. So 48 hours to make a virus, i would say most would take 2 hours modify an existing template then release it to play havoc.

unlike in linux and unix you get harldy any patches until after a virus is sent (seems like they know whats wrong before hand and have one waiting) or they inlude the updates in the next distro or kernal.

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 11:23
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Well i am downloading SUSE live

Lets see if it works...

In a few hours.

Or more

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the_winch
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Posted: 8th Jul 2003 21:14 Edited at: 8th Jul 2003 21:15
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Quote: "

[quote]easy to setup"



?? i have 18 emails here from db users that seem to say otherwise[/quote]

@ raven
Please try and quote from full sentances rather than just choping them up and making points completly unrelated to the full quote you mis-quoted.

The actuall quote

Quote: "It's free and easy to setup so the average computer user can't break it."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 07:27
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the point was that it was easy to setup... i don't think that its free makes it any easier or harder to setup.

and it doesn't change the fact that i have a good number of email from people saying "i'm trying to install Linux and i can't... how do it set it up?" or "this driver isn't working and my graphics are all wrong, where do i get new drivers?"

the worst part is no one ever lists WHAT Linux they're using - all of the linux setups are very different (and RedHat's is current the easyest being on Par with Windows)
Even then you've got alot of things to setup once inside Linux to make sure it has full support and such.

they are not user friendly, not matter what Windows style skins they wanna front it with ... it isn't the look but the actual setup which makes things easier and harder to use. Linux developers just have no concept of making things easy - the developers although they're TRYING to make them easier for the public generally have grown up around Unix and as such what makes sense to them during development doesn't make sense tot he adverage user who is used to DOS or even only used to Windows9x.

you go and ask most brand new computer users to try and use Windows 3.1 and they'll just try for about 2minutes and turn it off because it isn't user friendly or simple to use.
Back then it was fantasticly simple and a wonderful update on the DOS system ... but compared to know thinking like that is a decade old and your no longer catering for people with indepth knowlage of computers - your catering for people who want one click options and the OS to do it all for them.

if you wanna get bitchy about quotes then make sure that the quote is actually off the topic you've placed - because even if i'd used the full quote it would've still ment the exact same thing.

and you wanna talk about breaking Linux systems... i can do it in under 20seconds - a Windows system i have to actually try to bring down, even then its not a simple task.
There are so many safegaurds in Mircosoft Windows now that it makes it bloody hard to actually kill off your system through accidents - infact if you can under XP then you've gotta be the unluckiest person around, as the system scandisc & restoration along with the step-by-step help for beginngers shown and worded in a way which will help them understand just makes it so much simpler to operate and keep ticking.

So much with the Linux systems you have to guess what is going on, there is little to no help provided - and if you want a walk through you have to ask someone else who's already done the same task on the same version.

Linux is about as idiot-proof as a chinese finger trap

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8truths
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 09:38
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BTW, guys, it doesn't help that the Linux community tends to inflate the image of what Linux can do.

For example, the claim "it's great for older systems".

My ass it is!

Compare: Windows 98 will give you a full GUI on a 486 with 8 Mb RAM (try installing it with "setup -nm"; it will work, even if a bit slow), while Linux usually gives you a console for anything less than an early P2/PPro with 64 Mb RAM.

This annoyed the hell out me when I first tried Linux, because I heard that claim and thought I might get some extra life out of my old 486s and Pentium 1s. (As it turns out, the best use for those systems was to put Win98 on them with Office 97, and grandfather them into the role of word processors.)

That is not to say that claim matters much, but it is one of the most glaringly false the Linux community continues to repeat.

A lot could be done for Linux if folks would back off the claims of its emminent superiority to Windows. Instead, Linux martketers need to sidestep the anti-MS culture of Linux and begin pushing specific roles Linux serves well.

The problem with Linux at the moment is that a lot of those roles, such as a 30-machine graphics workstation, are so outside the scope of the average user -- even the average business/enterprise (I hate that term) user -- that it ceases to be worth marketing.

Linux is still not user friendly.

Consider the audio driver issue: if you think folks hated finding a driver on a CD-ROM when they were using Windows 95, what do you think they are going to feel about having to recompile parts of the system, and having to track that file down from a website with some cryptic URL to even try?! Especially after they have had the ease of installing drivers through 2000/XP! Or, really, even 95/98.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 09:46
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(^_^) ya know i've had Win95 working on a 386 Dx/38mhz before, glorious 8mb of Ram and 1mb Cirrus Logic card...

ran like a slug on valium, but atleast it ran

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8truths
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 21:07
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Where the hell did you ever find a 386? I thought most of them had been destroyed by shotgun blasts!

I have been told you can run 95 on a 386. Can you even run any apps, like Office?

I've only ever had one 386, and it was running 3.1 and no CD. My 95 installs are all on CD.

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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 21:21
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The point I was making is "It's free and easy to setup so the average computer user can't break it."

"It's free", no problems with this part.
"easy to setup so the average computer user can't break it". I make no mention of how difficult the average user finds getting hardware to work under linux and it is not important as they will never do it. What is important is once someone resonable experianced has got all the hardware working it is easy to stop the average user from breaking it so you end up doing a lot less tecnical support because they did something stupid.

Quote: "For example, the claim "it's great for older systems"."


It is true but only when you take into accoult what they are doing with their old computer. Great for linux users is very far from what most computer users would want to do.

I think windows Vs linux is mostly a mindset thing. I find linux logical and fairly easy to use, easier to find and fix problems and easy to find information on.
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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Jul 2003 21:28
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Quote: "I have been told you can run 95 on a 386"

It works surpisingly well. Well worth installing insted of 3.1

It's slow and you can run office. I think I only used v6.
Takes at least 30-60 seconds to start word and running more than one program at a time is not a good idea. Once word has started it works ok.

They also used to do this at my school with black and white screens.
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8truths
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 01:18
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I have always liked Linux.

My first real experience with Linux was with a point-of-sale system that I was given the task of maintaining and training people on.

We never had to repair the software's code at all. And Linux was able to rebound very quickly from extended power outages and whatnot (bear in mind, this is before 2000/XP, and we had little faith in 98 or NT for this role; obviously, the level of concern about Windows recovering from stuff like outages has reduced with the newer MS OSes).

As for 95 on a 386. Cute idea, but probably pointless now. If I ever come across another 386 and someone just wants to unload it, I will try.

But . . . For practical purposes . . . After all, you can get 486s and Pentiums for a song. The P1s will even run Office 2000 pretty respectably.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 04:13
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i had Office95 on it ... ohh that extra 5seconds of boottime for the Office toolbar was worth it lol

it was mainly the starting and quitting of aps though, once you were in them - was pretty decent
obviously sticking 95 on a 386 now is kinda pointless, but then so is putting XP on a 486 (and yeah it runs on it, and not at any particular speed loss either... apart from graphical resolutions but you'll get that even on 2.5Ghz systems without a decent gfx card)

but it did seems like an achievement because a few people told me it just couldnt be done, the same people who told me that the IDE connector for the SB16 IDE would never work in a 386 too though.

Quote: "What is important is once someone resonable experianced has got all the hardware working it is easy to stop the average user from breaking it so you end up doing a lot less tecnical support because they did something stupid."

you've obviously never met anyone like my brother ... Windows is the ONLY system he hasn't accidentially killed yet, its kinda like a Honda C90 - no matter how battered and pulled apart it looks, the bloody thing will just keep ticking over and run.

Linux if you accidentially break something it just lays down dead.
and the problem is that if your not technical, then when something does go wrong you REQUIRE someone who knows what they're doing - unlike Windows where you can open the help and fumble your way through actually learning something, Linux if something goes wrong it stays wrong until someone else who understand the OS can sit there and fixx it.

and i've never had to fixx Linux before which was like a matter of a few driver updates or just flicking a few proverbial switchs. You've gotta have some bloody good knowlage of the particular linux your using and be willing to be there the rest of the afternoon to do so!

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8truths
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 09:58
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The problem with Linux today is a lack of standardization.

Everyone is still trying to make their mark.

You still have two competing GUIs (KDE and GNOME), two main distros (RH and Mandrake) along with numerous little ones (I'm partial to Slackware, but it does seem hit-or-miss as to which machines it likes), three or four version of Open Office plus Star. If it weren't for GIMP and SANE, there would be nothing passing for acceptance in Linux. Would anyone venture that Samba is standard? Obviously Apache is standard -- it is nearing that point even on Windows!

Some of it's pretty dumb. For example, RH installer is a de-facto standard, yet people still try to force new install systems. Why? Some arrogant belief they're going to make their mark, instead of just building a good system.

With any luck, Wine will become a standard, because that's one Linux really needs to cause people to stop adopting Windows. The truth is, with 95% compatibility and a guarantee of all the major apps (Adobe, Office, etc.) I'd make the final move.

In many ways, open source systems end up crippled by how open they are, because every dweeb out there grabs the source, and instead of helping make OpenProg 2.0, they make it into MyProg 0.5 (which bears a suspicious resemblance to OpenProg, just with a different splash).

For now, and I suspect for the future, Windows is the standard. Longhorn looks very good, and the white papers indicate that it will fix a lot of dumb Windows issues (such as the old background ruining performance issue) that have been in the air for too long.

We can't stop here! This is bat country!
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 10:42
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I tried the SuSe Eval CD, one problem, i cannot log in.

I have set root password and made a user, the user exists an all but when i put the cottect password in ( a -in lowercase) it decided to say login failer.

Only thing i can think of is that case i have NTFS SuSe cannot read it, but apparently it only needs the HD to store the config file if you wish to save config.

Anyone know of any other live distros?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 11:13
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dunno... you can download RedHat9 thats what i use, and it has probably the best support there is. But the support updates aren't free.

ya know the one thing Linux need is to have a standardisation, unfortunately what really keeps it fresh and apart from Windows is that it isn't Standardised.

Windows .Net with its 100% recoded core is definately a step in the right direction for Microsoft - they're keeping with back compatibility but the entire system is being developed on almost 100% new code... .Net itself which is at the very heart of it is a total replacement 2.0 to the current 1.2 system, it acts as a buffering layer along side DirectX which now plays probably the most key role.
With the Memory management completely dropping the DOS premises (in Dos and Win9x/WinNT modes it is emulated, which means a slight performance hit but nothing that you'd worry about)

way i see it, the best thing that could have happened to Microsoft was loosing that courtcase ... they now have another 2years to fully develop this OS with Beta tester all of the way and Software developers getting to learn the new systems as and when they're developed bug testing getting to know the new system just as well as the old.
to be perfectly honest it does seem that Mircosoft have finally got thier act together and noticed that the other OS's could be a threat if they'd continued on just developed on the same old system, and it is just amazing the strides being made each day.
Rather than being bullied into releasing something which isn't ready everything is being added section by section and tested throughourly, i have no doubt upon release its going to the be most bugfree, stable & secure OS ... finally giving them a true platform they can use as a stepping stone.

also having the time to finally learn howto optimise for processors i hope is goingt o pay off dividends, especially with 64bit now here - in 2years it'll be the standard whilst other OS's struggle to add the support MS can sit there testing several setups and not be pressured to release just to keep up.

(^_^) if you ask me the future is bright, the future is a little multicoloured butterfly!

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Eric T
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 11:26
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well how much of an improvement was 9 from 8? i have not used 9 yet, and if its that much of an improvement, i might as well pull 35 outta my ass.

Opinions are like a$$holes, Everybody has one.
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 11:43
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yeah, can you install RH onto a NTFS partition?

I thought you had to install onto Fat32 then mount the NTFS disks.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jul 2003 13:25
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well i installed it when my primary partition was still FAT64 (before .Net was updated a few weeks ago to WFS), so i'm not sure but its installed onto an NTFS partition and works well

it isn't exactly mega upgrade from 8 ... but its got enough new crap for it to be worth it

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Puffy
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Location: United States
Posted: 10th Jul 2003 15:32
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LOL.... All linux distros are on this website... http://www.distrowatch.com/ ... knoppix is a good CD version... there are several more just looky there... and if you want to install a version of linux I recommend getting Partition Magic 8.0... you make a linux native Ext 2 or 3 and like a 128 meg swap file... install linux... if it uses LILO... when you get into the command... be sure to setup lilo correctly because it could fuck up... and the easiest version of linux would be lycoris... http://www.lycoris.com/ =P its just like XP but linux... ^_^ I have Win 2000Pro on this comp with Lycoris... and Win200Pro on my laptop with EvilEntity... (http://www.undeadlinux.com/)... fun fun

EVERYONE LOVES THE PUFF!... =\
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