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Geek Culture / gta4 and music

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bitJericho
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Posted: 5th May 2008 18:42
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So, I keep reading how you can "buy" the music you hear in the game. But, I was under the impression that when you bought the game, you get the music that comes with it.

You buy a movie, you could certainly copy the sound track out for your own personal use, why not a video game? Is it just me thinking it's a little wierd, or are you guys all for the music industry double charging you for the music?


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Sasuke
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:07 Edited at: 5th May 2008 19:08
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Either google, End User License Agreement (EULA).

or

Read this,
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/26/law-of-the-game-on-joystiq-end-user-license-aggrivation/

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:17
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While an interesting read, that doesn't really cover my point. If I buy a game with a soundtrack, I feel like I'd be well within my bounds to copy the soundtrack for my personal use.

I could just run the game, have my player play the music, and I can go do something else, so where's the problem if I copy that music to an easier to run format for my own use.

Quote: "But on the other side, what's to stop me from putting it on my and my friend's MP3 player? Or putting it on my computer and giving the CD to someone else?"


Your welcome to attempt to stop piracy, however, I'm still going to take your cd and rip the music from it.

My question is, do companies take the approach that what I'm doing is not in line with what they believe their product should be used for?


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Drew Cameron
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Posted: 5th May 2008 19:19
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If it involves you dissasembling the game in any way to get to the music, then it's probably agains the EULA.

An interesting question man, for sure.

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Jeku
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Posted: 6th May 2008 01:41 Edited at: 6th May 2008 01:42
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Quote: "You buy a movie, you could certainly copy the sound track out for your own personal use"


Says who? I'll bet if you looked at the law you'd see that is technically not allowed.

As for your question, do you think you should be able to rip the art assets from the game and use them too? Maybe take Niko's 3D model and mess around with it? Obviously we all know that's not allowed, and it's the same thing with the music


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AlanC
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Posted: 6th May 2008 02:32
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Quote: "You buy a movie, you could certainly copy the sound track out for your own personal use"


Why would they sell the soundtrack to it? I agree with Jeku, but I would do it if a movie was like 20 years old, and a soundtrack was never released for it.

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Xenocythe
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Posted: 6th May 2008 05:36
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'Cuz the guys who made the soundtrack held a equally great, seperate effort as the movie guys that cost them money and time that they can't profit from if the soundtrack comes free with the movie.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 6th May 2008 08:17 Edited at: 6th May 2008 08:26
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Quote: "As for your question, do you think you should be able to rip the art assets from the game and use them too? Maybe take Niko's 3D model and mess around with it? Obviously we all know that's not allowed, and it's the same thing with the music"


You're telling me that I can't rip Niko and give him a silly grin, for my own personal amusement?

I think you're wrong.

I can take a painting and marker it with a silly mustache and grin, but I can't do that on digital media?

And yes, I'm saying I can rip the music soundtrack off of a dvd I bought and own. If I want to listen to, say, "The Producers" on a trip, but I don't have a dvd player in the car, I'm sure as heck going to rip it to a cd and burn it.

That's called fair use.

Quote: "'Cuz the guys who made the soundtrack held a equally great, seperate effort as the movie guys that cost them money and time that they can't profit from if the soundtrack comes free with the movie. "


The guys who made a soundtrack get paid for their work. They get paid again on the soundtrack.


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Jeku
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Posted: 6th May 2008 10:44 Edited at: 6th May 2008 10:44
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Quote: "That's called fair use."


I'm fairly sure it's not legal. I can almost 100% say ripping a track from a DVD (if it's possible) is not legal. When you as the consumer purchase a movie you don't also own the rights to the music.

Quote: "You're telling me that I can't rip Niko and give him a silly grin, for my own personal amusement?"


That's exactly what I'm telling you. Technically it is not legal to "rip" things from media in which you didn't purchase the rights. Rockstar will not likely sue you if you do this for personal reasons--- after all, how would they know? But it's not technically legal. There's a reason why they sell a movie and then they sell the soundtrack. If you buy a Blu-Ray movie you don't have the right to rip it into DVD format or VCD format either. Or to AVI. Technically, again, that's not legal.


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Sasuke
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Posted: 6th May 2008 10:54 Edited at: 6th May 2008 10:56
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Here how I see, if there music is not protected by an intellectual property then your in the clear and it's fair use according to Consumer Right's, in the case of GTA, it's not. Ripping anything else Rockstar has created like models, textures etc... is handled alittle different, since Rockstar are the sol creators of that content, any reproducing of any kind without permission is illegal. Only if Rockstar give you the tools to extract and mod content (like Unreal), thats the only other way of not breaking any copyright laws.

The problem is the including of artist and track names in the manual, if you want the music then they've giving you the directions.

A dream is a fantasy, if you achieve that fantasy it was never a dream to begin with.
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Van B
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Posted: 6th May 2008 11:01
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The only way you could change the appearance of Nico would be to make an illegal copy of the disc, otherwise how on earth would you be able to change his texture (or whatever) then get it back into the game.

Never tried putting a 360 DVD in my PC to see if I can access the files, so I'm not sure how you'd rip the music - recording from your 360 would have all the background noise as well, you'd have to set the SFX volume to nothing first, but I think that's the only way you can do this legally, just like recording from a radio.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
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Nyllo
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 21:48
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If you own GTA 4 you will know that in the Audio menu you can select a radio station without any city SFX in the back.

I will agree to an extent that if you buy something for personal use it's fine to do whatever the hell you want to it, but commercial and profit related is a big no no, I will rip the hell out of a CD that I bought because I can, and if a music company doesn't like that why do they make a medium that will be copied by people in the first place, second I only find that copyright will be infringed when someone else releases that model of Niko Bellik or ripped FLAC files from the game on a torrent website or file sharing.

Also the person above, Microsoft have copy protection on the disks, so inserting one into the disk drive of a computer will only show up as a movie file on a DVD, I'm sure people have found a way though.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 06:44 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 07:52
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It is illegal to rip a dvd to your computer. It is even illegal to rip a cd to your computer and listen to it on your ipod. If I was you I'd just find something else to listen to.

EDIT:: This was picked up from american podcasts and websites so it may not be true in other countries.


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Thraxas
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 06:55
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Quote: "It is even illegal to rip a cd to your computer and listen to it on your ipod."


Not in Australia... Here you are allowed to transfer music you legally own from CDs to digital audio players...

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ionstream
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 07:09
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I don't know why people are using the "if its for personal use anything goes" argument, because when you buy a CD you're buying it for personal use. I'm sure its not that big of a deal though, and its not the end of the world if you tape record your TV while the music is playing, but its not within your rights as an owner of the copy of the game.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 07:39 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 07:51
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@Thraxas - cheers for pointing that out, what I stated was picked up from american podcasts and websites so it may not even be true over here in England, I have edited my original post to point this out, thanks again.


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draknir_
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 08:20
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As I understand it, the end user license only allows you to play the game. You don't own the the game you buy, you are merely allowed to keep it and play it, the actual ownership of the game goes to the publisher/developer (not sure which). So the soundtrack is a part of the licensed material, you can listen to it in-game, but ripping it would probably violate the license agreement.

just thinking, since im a PC gamer: how do EULAs work with console games? I cant remember ever having to click 'I agree' when playing on a console
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Thraxas
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 10:05 Edited at: 11th Jun 2008 10:06
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Quote: "just thinking, since im a PC gamer: how do EULAs work with console games? I cant remember ever having to click 'I agree' when playing on a console"


They're usually at the back of the manual for console games... some of them say you may not lend your game to anyone else!

Quote: "@Thraxas - cheers for pointing that out, what I stated was picked up from american podcasts and websites so it may not even be true over here in England, I have edited my original post to point this out, thanks again."


They changed the law not too many years ago here and at the same time upped the penalty for file sharing and piracy as a trade off... I found this article about how the UK wants to make cd rips legal

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Veron
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Posted: 11th Jun 2008 15:32
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Yeah, it's great that it's legal over here.


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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 03:16
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It's legal here too to download music--- not for long probably.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 05:02 Edited at: 12th Jun 2008 05:05
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I don't see why if you bought the game you can't do what you like with it, as long as you don't redistribute it.
The music companies got paid for their songs in the game.
buy an mp3 player that can record off another device (iriver is a cheap one) i did that with scarface and now have all the tracks as MP3s.
If they're putting it out there they can't moan when people rip it (for personal use)
it's like saying recording off the radio is illegal.

I do get annoyed with piracy when its stealing but you've already paid for it so i can't see the problem.

as long as your not planning on selling it and funding terrr :p

It is far better to complete a 10 line program than to start a 10,000 line program.
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draknir_
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 06:08
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That's all fine by you, but the fact is that you CAN'T just do what you want with it, its the same with DVDs, you cant show them in public, because those aren't the viewing rights you bought in the DVD store. You didn't buy the right to rip music from the game, you bought the right to play the game. Which is why they should either put out a soundtrack for people to buy, or you'll have to commit a crime.
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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 08:52
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Quote: "it's like saying recording off the radio is illegal."


Um, technically that is illegal in most countries


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Thraxas
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 11:48
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Quote: "I do get annoyed with piracy when its stealing but you've already paid for it so i can't see the problem."


You paid to play the game... you don't own the game, just the disc, manual and box ... You did not buy the soundtrack so yes it is stealing...

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Jeku
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 23:02
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The developers have paid the company representing the musician a license for the music to be in the game, and that is it. They didn't pay a license for the songs to be ripped. That surely would have cost them more.


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Zappo
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 14:32 Edited at: 13th Jun 2008 14:50
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As has been said, when you buy a game or DVD or whatever you aren't buying the 'rights' associated with the contents at all, just the media on which it resides and a license to play it. That's how I understand it.
Quote: "If they're putting it out there they can't moan when people rip it (for personal use)"

Of course they can. Just because its possible, it doesn't mean its legal. Its possible to walk into a cinema and video tape a movie but its not legal - even if you have paid for a ticket and promise its for personal viewing only.

EDIT: This is a little off topic, but did anyone else notice the mistake on one of the GTAIV posters? See the attached image and count the fingers...


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA

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Deathead
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 18:12
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Quote: "See the attached image and count the fingers.."

There is five.. The one behind the fat one is bending.


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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 19:50
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Quote: "There is five.. The one behind the fat one is bending."


Yeah, Zappo must be blind

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Master Xilo
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 22:06
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You're NOT allowed to copy the music out of films and games.

Otherwise, you couldn't/wouldn't have to buy a Gothic 3 soundtrack cd, for example.
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Saikoro
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 01:05
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Quote: "There is five.. The one behind the fat one is bending."

Ah, but where is the thumb?


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David R
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 01:05 Edited at: 14th Jun 2008 01:09
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I think this boils down to the fact that no matter what the law says, people effectively do what the general consensus agree with.

Ripping and iPod syncing is illegal in many places... but it is ignored because it is so widespread and socially accepted. Ultimately, this means the law is irrelevant - it's always a delicate balancing act between legality and the support of the people (and if the law doesn't have the latter, is it ignored, the law loses respect, and cannot be enforced)

It actually reminds me of [the failure of] prohibition in a way - you can't stop something that's already widespread. It's the exact same problem the digital music industry are facing. Because a lot of the restrictions breach the "common sense" of most people / what they expect they should be able to do with their purchase.

And, once again, the consumer votes with their wallet. If you're not giving someone the rights that they expect from their legal purchase (ripping is probably a good example) then they just won't bother purchasing. Because either way they've "done wrong" in the eyes of law. The music industry need to wake up and smell the coffee in my opinion.

Quote: "If you buy a Blu-Ray movie you don't have the right to rip it into DVD format or VCD format either. Or to AVI. Technically, again, that's not legal."


In that way, I think there's no reason why ripping the soundtrack is bad. Because think about it - millions upon millions of people rip or upload movie segments all the time (either to ipods, youtube etc. etc.)

Since that in itself is "legally dubious", there is absolutely no difference between that and using the soundtrack in the same way. They're both "wrong", but for some reason the former is largely ignored


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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 05:58
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the only reason ripping is illegal is that once you've ripped something you could redistribute it. It's like owning a TV set and not having a TV licence is illegal, even if you dont have an arial; you own something that is capable of receiving TV signals.

@Jeku
I know it's illegal to record off radio, what I meant was its a ridiculous law that is impossible to enforce

It is far better to complete a 10 line program than to start a 10,000 line program.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 06:24
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Quote: "the only reason ripping is illegal is that once you've ripped something you could redistribute it. It's like owning a TV set and not having a TV licence is illegal, even if you dont have an arial; you own something that is capable of receiving TV signals."


lol, we shouldn't drive because we might go 80 in a 40mph zone. We shouldn't drink cuz we might drink too much, etc. It's not a good reason to outlaw something.


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David R
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 12:39
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Quote: "the only reason ripping is illegal is that once you've ripped something you could redistribute it. "


No, that's not the reason at all - ripping counts as reproduction of the material ("Reproduction or transmission digitally or mechanically" as per most copyright laws)


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Zappo
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 02:34
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Quote: "Quote: "See the attached image and count the fingers.."
There is five.. The one behind the fat one is bending."

I don't know about you, but I have FOUR fingers on each hand - not five.


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flickenmaste
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 04:42
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If you COULD get the sound track i would only get it for that one talk show on the radio...its funny has heck


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Agent Dink
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 05:52
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Quote: "I don't know about you, but I have FOUR fingers on each hand - not five. "


I definitely see 5 fingers and no thumb... LOL

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ionstream
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 08:05 Edited at: 16th Jun 2008 08:09
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The thumb is the one furthest to the top, in front of the stick. She's holding the sucker with her index finger, and possibly middle finger.

Also a thumb is a finger, so 5 fingers on each hand.

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Thraxas
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 10:44 Edited at: 16th Jun 2008 10:45
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Quote: "I don't know about you, but I have FOUR fingers on each hand - not five."


Did you them in an accident? As ionstream said a thumb is a finger...

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Zappo
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 12:22
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Quote: "Also a thumb is a finger, so 5 fingers on each hand."

I think some of you need a lesson in basic biology. Technically a thumb is not a finger. Look up the definition of 'finger' (carefully now) and you will see something along the lines of:
"One of the five digits of the hand, especially one other than the thumb."
Examples: Online Medical Dictionary, FreeDictionary Medical Dictionary, Biology Online Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary, etc.

Anyway, unless her thumb is as long and thin as her fingers and she has glued her lollipop to the outside of her thumb, it doesn't work. I have attached a new version of the picture with "Sesame Street" type labels on it, just for you guys with abnormal appendages.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA

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Thraxas
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 13:45 Edited at: 16th Jun 2008 13:46
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I did A Level Biology... Is a thumb a finger? Why yes it is... I too will post links

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen01/gen01987.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970829/ai_n14119896

http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?first+finger

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=82870&dict=CALD

Anyway... that picture is like the optical illusion where the elephant has 5 legs...

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Zappo
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Posted: 16th Jun 2008 14:04
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I think you have proved my point with those links Thraxas.

I don't know what authority your first link is from ('Department of Energy'?!) but its contradictive. It says 'thumbs are fingers' and then says 'Thumbs are made of bones just like fingers', i.e. referring to them as something different.

The second link just says that thumbs will now be classed as digits - which is correct but does NOT refer to the thumb as a finger (except for the title which is wrong).

Your third link also refers to the thumb as a digit and not a finger.

Your forth link does refer to the thumb as a finger but the Cambridge definition of finger makes an exception of the thumb - so they contradict themselves.

Personally, I would tend to believe medical dictionaries and definitions - but each to their own.


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Thraxas
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:22
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Quote: "I think you have proved my point with those links Thraxas.
"


I don't believe I have because in each link they refer to thumb as a finger... All your fingers are digits so to say that because it is referred to as a digit means it can't be a finger is odd.

Anyway it's completely off topic and it doesn't matter anyway, there's no point arguing over the internet about trivial matters... You are going to believe what you want to believe. It makes no difference to me whether you incorrectly believe that your thumb isn't a finger Next you'll try and tell me that a square isn't a rectangle

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Zappo
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 11:45
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Quote: "All your fingers are digits so to say that because it is referred to as a digit means it can't be a finger is odd."

Thats not what I said. I said that both fingers and thumbs are digits (which your links agree with), but a thumb is not a finger. A thumb has two bones and two joints, a finger has three bones and three joints.
It is off topic but I figured I would do my bit for education
Besides, when people look at the picture and think its normal for a girl to have 6 digits - something is very wrong in the world.


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