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Dark Physics & Dark A.I. & Dark Dynamix / [Dark Physics] Ragdoll on a boned .x model?

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Lukas W
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Posted: 7th May 2008 13:18 Edited at: 7th May 2008 18:22
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Hello everyone.

I downloaded a human male model from a website, which I don't remember the name of, to try and make a ragdoll out of it.

I imported the model into Milkshape, and created "joints" which I assume is "bones". After the joints were created, I assigned the correct vertices to the joints and exported it to a .x file.

In DBPro I tested to see if DBPro could read the bones, using a simple "rotate limb" function, for each limb/bone. It worked.

Next I built a human model of primitive DB Objects (cubes and spheres) and jointed them together, to create a primitve ragdoll.

I wanted to merge the human model with the primitive ragdoll, as I assumed that was the correct way to do it. So by looking at the "rope demo" I was able to make my way through that part.

The 3D model did not react to gravity at all, and the primitive ragdoll fell down to the floor. So it didn't work

I tried to use the same method on the rope model, where it worked.

So my question is this:
Is Milkshape "joints" the same as DBPro "bones"?
If not - What application should I use to make bones in?
Has anyone had any luck with what I am trying to do? And if so, care to share some code, or tell me what applications you've used?

Love, L.

Edit:
I tested the primitive ragdoll vs "gubbe.x" from the newton ragdoll demo. Everything worked perfect, except I hadn't assigned the ragdoll bones to the correct bones, so it looked deformed.

Anyway, "gubbe.x" was exported from CharacterFX.
Does anyone know what kind of .x exporter this application uses? And where, if possible, to download it for milkshape?

Edit:
CharacterFX is only $15 USD, so I think I will buy it.
But first I'll have a look at other (free) options, and also try the shareware version of cFX.
Thanks to everyone who thought about helping me!

Love, L.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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pdq
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Posted: 7th May 2008 22:30
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I sympathasize with you.

Skinned ragdolls has been a problem for many users of DarkPhysics.
As of yet, I do not know of anyone who has been successful at this.

I have personally returned to using Newton. At least I can get my ragdolls to work in there. I may revisit Ragdolls in DarkPhysics later.
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Lukas W
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Posted: 7th May 2008 22:58 Edited at: 7th May 2008 22:58
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Thank you for the information.

I've got a bit further now, by importing the 3D Model into CharacterFX (Shareware), adding bones and then exporting it back.

It still looks like crap though. In this image, I stretched the primitives out just to get the mesh visible.

It is odd that the rope demo works, but a character doesn't.

Tomorrow I will try to create some simple models, like two cubes connected to each other. Then bone them, then apply basic primitives, lik in the image. Hopefully at least THAT will work.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Lukas W
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Posted: 8th May 2008 23:47 Edited at: 8th May 2008 23:51
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I've had a go at this today too, and I noticed that in the rope demo when they are creating the "primitive bones" from the model bones, they create them by copying the model bone information.
It is done in this order:
primitive bone 1 = model bone 1 data, primitive bone 2 = model bone 2 data, and etc.

When they then are going to create the ragdoll effect on the rope, they merge the primitive bones with the model bones in a reversed fasion.
Like so: primitive bone 1 = model bone 18, pb2 = mb17 etc. etc.

How come?

If this is the way to do it with a humanoid ragdoll, then I need help with figuring out how to do it. aww:S

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Silvester
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Posted: 8th May 2008 23:52
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Suppose they do that to get past the bug?
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Lukas W
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Posted: 8th May 2008 23:54
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Haha, very funny. But it was fake laugh.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Silvester
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Posted: 9th May 2008 00:03
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It was not meant as a joke or sarcasm, It was meant as a serious reply. But now that I read it again, it does sound kindof harsh.
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pdq
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Posted: 9th May 2008 01:50
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Quote: "
When they then are going to create the ragdoll effect on the rope, they merge the primitive bones with the model bones in a reversed fasion.
Like so: primitive bone 1 = model bone 18, pb2 = mb17 etc. etc.
"


I think you may be right. If I recall, when I was working with Ragdolls, it seemed that the DB limbID did not agree with DB Physics joint assignment.

For example: If the DB limb ID for the "head" is 10. If you then rotate the Physics joint that has a limb assignment = "10", what you may get is that some other limb is rotating, say the "arm".

This added to my frustration!!!
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Lukas W
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Posted: 9th May 2008 20:53
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POD;
Sorry, my comment sounded rude. awwwww! I suck at jokes :S.

pdq;
I understand what you mean.
I will see if I can work something out by using the information you gave me.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Lukas W
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Posted: 10th May 2008 15:14 Edited at: 10th May 2008 15:17
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Like P.O.D. said, I also believe there is a bug with the DarkPhysics ragdoll commands.

The rope demo works because here the rope is just a series of bones in a line. While if working with a human character, or a cube with extruded planes (like an airplane), in other words; anything else other than a "cube", it is not possible to get a 100% working rag doll effect on the 3D Model.

The vertices of the 3D Model is rotated 90 degrees on the Z axis, if applied to a ragdoll primitve bone.
Also the order in which DarkPhysics reads the bone/limbs differs from the way DBPro reads the bones/limbs.

So you will have to search through each limb to find the correct one. But when you do, there is still the problem with the rotation.


Are TGC working on this? Do they even know about it?

Love, L.

Edit, in case I am wrong, then I would like to see an example of a working humanoid ragdoll in DBPro. Because I can't get it working.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Silvester
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Posted: 10th May 2008 19:01
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Quote: "Edit, in case I am wrong, then I would like to see an example of a working humanoid ragdoll in DBPro. Because I can't get it working."


well, it works in FPSC X10, BUT they know their own bugs, and the ways to work around them.
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Lukas W
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Posted: 10th May 2008 21:17
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Hmm. Do you know if they have released the game source code?
I remember they did that with FPSC v1.

It would help a great deal if they have.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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pdq
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Posted: 10th May 2008 22:45
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Lukas,

I totally agree with you. Especially with regard to the rope demo!!! I came to that same conclusion a while back. This is why I went back to using Newton.

For a long time I worked at building a skinned ragdoll version of AIKO (She seems to be a common X model used on a number of TGC demos). I posted...post after post after post to work it out, but with no success.

I believed there has been more than enough time for TGC to have done something about this. I do not know what the problem is. I do not know if Mike is even aware that there is a problem, since I never emailed him on the subject.

And regarding FPSC, I think they used a different physics engine.

I wonder if Nvidia's acquisition of AGEIA has changed the state of Dark Physics. I think very soon we will be writing "physics shaders" that we can simply import into our dark basic programs. Such shaders will probably replace Dark Physics.
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Silvester
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Posted: 10th May 2008 22:48
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FPSC X10 uses Dark Physics as far as I know, but not sure. I doubt its ODE though, since it looks way to good...

Anyway, they did not release the source for it yet, since there is no DBP X10 yet.
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david w
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Posted: 11th May 2008 22:36
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I doubt were gonna be using PhsyX based shaders lol.
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Lukas W
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Posted: 12th May 2008 00:35
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I believe the only thing we'll see from nvidia aquiring PhysX is the relief of having a hardware physics processor on our GPU's.

I allways afraided from a clowns. aww..
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 4th Jun 2008 17:41
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Quote: "FPSC X10 uses Dark Physics as far as I know, but not sure. I doubt its ODE though, since it looks way to good..."

x10 uses ODE. Paul Johnston created the ragdolls with ODE for x10.


Come see the WIP!
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Olby
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Posted: 9th Jun 2008 16:23
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So why are they not releasing us the ODE plugin rather than leaving with DPhy that is useless with skinned/boned mesh rag dolls. Besides ODE does not require you to install some additional drivers.


ACER Aspire 5920G: Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, DirectX10, DBPro 6.8
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HowDo
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Posted: 9th Jun 2008 17:24
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Olby I could be very wrong but DBPro may very well have ODE built in just that we have not been told what the command are.

You could aways go nosing in the dll and seeing what you can find.

or

make the model ragdoll and joints and not won't that should do as you think; then when Mike post an upgrade and say in anything broken, you're ready to drop it the post box.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 02:57
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It's a reworked version of ODE that's used in their Vista version of DBP. We do have ODE but not the same version, nor will we until DBPx10.


Come see the WIP!
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HowDo
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 11:21
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@Cash Curtis II

Do you know if DBPx10 is a Vista only or will it work in XP?

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 11:44
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Vista only


Come see the WIP!
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