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Geek Culture / The big battle

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Umbra
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Posted: 8th May 2008 15:54
You know how sometimes (well pretty much all the time) a company releases a game and a different company releases a different game there are those huge battles about which on is better? (Like Halo and Super Smash Bothers Brawl) Is it like that with the Dark Basic Professional users and the FPS Creator users? Or since were all one big gaming place we all get along?

Van B
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Posted: 8th May 2008 16:16
Not really, considering that FPSC is written in DBPro, it would be like arguing which is better, Half Life or Counter Strike.

It boils down to what the user wants from either package, there is no better package, just better users .


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th May 2008 16:54 Edited at: 8th May 2008 16:58
The huge battles about which is better tend to be pointless rants between two groups, which is 'better' can only ever be subjective to what a person wants out of something - so the rants are pointless as neither arguer is right. I'd say The Secret of Monkey Island is better than Half Life 2 (because I prefer adventure games that make you think, than shooting games that arm themselves with gameplay, superior physics and superior graphics) and that Dark Basic Pro is better than torque (because I prefer ease of use that get out the results I need). If you're going to take it down on a technical level, then it's less subjective.

Of course a number of elitist C++ users do go around calling things that aren't C++ crap, when the results they get is far less than what we get with Dark Basic, of course C++ is better on a technical level, but if I want something done I'm not going to be a C++ purist.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 8th May 2008 18:18
I agree with that last statement. There are plenty of failed projects for both BASIC and C, but the failed BASIC projects generally get much further.

Sliding cube > Debug console


I fail at life. No, really.
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 8th May 2008 21:48
There's no point arguing DBP vs FPSC since they are completely different. Also they attract different crowds that doesn't really mix. Don't post a FPSC project in the WIP board or you'll get spammed, that board is sort of reserved for coders by coders. But really, the interest of FPSC projects by DBP coders is pretty nonexistent. Since it's so easy to use FPSC they tend to be as interesting as a cube on a matrix

[center]
SunnyKatt
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Posted: 8th May 2008 22:51
Agreed. No point indeed. Where did you hear about these "battles"?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th May 2008 23:59
I'm trying to picture it in my head right now...two hordes of geeks, each holding a ruler, a pen or an XBox 360 running at each other - one team wearing T-Shirts of Gordon Freeman and the other with Master Chief screaming - "charge!"

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
ionstream
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Posted: 9th May 2008 00:13
Quote: "Of course a number of elitist C++ users do go around calling things that aren't C++ crap, when the results they get is far less than what we get with Dark Basic, of course C++ is better on a technical level, but if I want something done I'm not going to be a C++ purist."


I have never, ever heard an "elitist C++ user" call a language crap because it wasn't C++, I've only heard people who complain about these kinds of people. I'm beginning to think that maybe there was one or two users who did this and now people seem to think it happens all the time.

Benjamin
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Posted: 9th May 2008 00:19
Quote: "I agree with that last statement. There are plenty of failed projects for both BASIC and C, but the failed BASIC projects generally get much further.

Sliding cube > Debug console"

You're comparing apples and oranges I'm afraid. Strip DBP down to just BASIC (without the premade 3D engine and libraries) and you'll have a pretty hard time trying to compete with C++.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th May 2008 01:54
Quote: "I have never, ever heard an "elitist C++ user" call a language crap because it wasn't C++, I've only heard people who complain about these kinds of people. I'm beginning to think that maybe there was one or two users who did this and now people seem to think it happens all the time."


A have seen a few and I heard other people complain about a few as well, I'm not saying there's a large number outthere, or a class of people or as big as other kinds of fanboys, but you do get them.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 9th May 2008 04:24
Yeah, I find it pretty ridiculous. Different people like different games, it's not rocket science, and game creators (not THE game creators, I'm talking about other companies like Nintendo) treat it like a huge ordeal. "My games better than yours"! they shout at Sony, with a snappy reply from MicroSoft "Halo beat the socks off of Mario Galaxy!!" I prefer games that are fairly strategic and somewhat adventurous...Golf, anyone?


Original image by BigAdd
Jeku
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Posted: 9th May 2008 21:42
Quote: "There are plenty of failed projects for both BASIC and C, but the failed BASIC projects generally get much further."


And where did you pull this figure from? For one thing market penetration of C/C++ is vastly greater than DBP. By this alone there are greater amounts of C++ games being made. It's fairly ridiculous to assume a lot of them stop at "Debug console", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Quote: "Sliding cube > Debug console"


Please, spare us. A sliding cube takes what, 5 lines of code in DBP? You're saying that it's "better" than getting, say, a Direct3D environment initialized with C++?

Quote: "Of course a number of elitist C++ users do go around calling things that aren't C++ crap, when the results they get is far less than what we get with Dark Basic"


I would venture to say there is a hefty amount of "elitism" on this forum too. I haven't heard of anyone calling something not made in C++ "crap". You say the results they get is far less than with DBP? Where are you getting this from? Last time I checked there were hundreds of thousands of commercial games made with C++ and about a dozen with DBP.


NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 9th May 2008 21:44
No, what I'm saying is five lines of code to make a cube on a matrix is a better result than five lines of code to make DOS window bearing the legend "My 1337 MMORPG0rz". I honestly don't think you'd even get that far in C if you bothered to handle Windows messages. That alone usually takes about 20-25 from what I've seen.


I fail at life. No, really.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 9th May 2008 22:04
Quote: "I have never, ever heard an "elitist C++ user" call a language crap because it wasn't C++, I've only heard people who complain about these kinds of people. I'm beginning to think that maybe there was one or two users who did this and now people seem to think it happens all the time."


Quote: "I haven't heard of anyone calling something not made in C++ "crap"."

You guys both need to swing over to gamedev.net and say you're working on a project in DBP. You'll get burned five ways from sunday for using DBP, even though your project is far closer to functionality than anything they've worked on. It does happen, but more often than not the people who rip DBP haven't actually accomplished anything in a different language.

C is clearly more successful... more people use it, it powers more games, etc. But there's no way anyone could say a game couldn't be made in DBP that rivals mainstream games in quality or sales. It hasn't been done yet, but there's a first time for everything . The general notion you encounter (from a select group of people) is that DBP is good for casual game EXE's, and that's it. The people saying it are most likely still learning C and don't want to think there's something easier out there to suit their personal needs... result: strap on a flamethrower and attack your project, even though the number of games they've released, freeware or otherwise, is =< 0. But rest assured, you will most likely never hear anyone who knows what they're talking about ripping DBP unnecessarily.

Jeku
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Posted: 9th May 2008 22:51 Edited at: 9th May 2008 22:53
Quote: "But there's no way anyone could say a game couldn't be made in DBP that rivals mainstream games in quality or sales."


Sales, true. Visuals, untrue. Hate to break it to you, but DBP is *not* capable of Crysis style visuals. There *is* a limitation to DBP, so don't fool yourself. This isn't a dig at DBP, as most hobby programmers will never get that far, but don't fool yourself.

Quote: "You guys both need to swing over to gamedev.net and say you're working on a project in DBP."


You're talking about something completely different. What we said is nobody will say it's crap because it's not C++. People who think one particular product is crap are completely justified in having an opinion. After all, I think OpenOffice is crap compared to MS Office. Do I not have a right to have this opinion? But I wouldn't be justified in saying *all* office products that are not MS Office are crap.

Quote: "but more often than not the people who rip DBP haven't actually accomplished anything in a different language."


And the same can be said about the DBP crowd who rips into FPSC or T3DGM, but haven't accomplished anything in DBP. You shouldn't let a few bullies who laugh at your language of choice get you down.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th May 2008 23:20
Quote: "I haven't heard of anyone calling something not made in C++ "crap". You say the results they get is far less than with DBP? Where are you getting this from? Last time I checked there were hundreds of thousands of commercial games made with C++ and about a dozen with DBP."


Essentially what the topic is here, a point about the fanboys, where these so-called 'battles' come from. With the C++ dudes, like I've said, I don't know the number, just that I've seen them - these fanboys don't have results to back it up, when the 'failed' DBP projects (not all) have gotten further in terms of what the results show. The fact not many have heard of these guys, then it suggests that the number is small.

What I am NOT saying is that C++ doesn't get results, you don't need to be a genius to realise that it does. The points I think are really only relative to fanboy-dom.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
GatorHex
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Posted: 10th May 2008 01:54 Edited at: 10th May 2008 02:03
Honestly if you argue use C++ you could just use the same arguments for using machine code. I suspect people don't use machine code anymore because it's development time is too slow to code in.

I feel the same way about C++ and which is why I would pick DBP to code home brew games in any day. I wrote a simple 1 player game in 2 weeks and a 100 player online game in about 2 months. I've used C++ and Direct X to write games before and know millions of issues would have cropped up making coding take twice as long at least.

If you still want to use C++ you can save yourself lots of time using Dark GDK.

DinoHunter (still no nVidia compo voucher!), CPU/GPU Benchmark, DarkFish Encryption DLL, War MMOG (WIP), 3D Model Viewer
Matt Rock
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Posted: 10th May 2008 06:22
Quote: "You shouldn't let a few bullies who laugh at your language of choice get you down."

It isn't that it gets me down really, not in a depressing way anyway, it's just a bit annoying I guess. I had a long series of email conversations with a guy from gamedev who tried to convince me that, although he'd never actually finished a project with C++, and although he'd never used DarkBASIC, he "could tell" it was crap based solely on the fact that no "big games" had been made with it. It's those types of comments that always bother me, and the bulk of anti-DBP comments you come across on websites like gamedev are like that. The theory that "it hasn't happened yet, so it never will," it's just silly imo . Not just in the DBP vs. C++ arguement, but anywhere really, it's a form of silly that applies universally lol.

ionstream
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Posted: 10th May 2008 08:07
Quote: "Honestly if you argue use C++ you could just use the same arguments for using machine code."


How exactly would that work?

dark coder
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Posted: 10th May 2008 09:59
Quote: "How exactly would that work?"


Because clearly many DBPro users dislike C++(after having not used it) because they assume to create a spinning cube you require a million lines and adding anything else is the same. If you want to compare C++ to DBP then compare it when using the GDK lib, that's as close as you can probably get given it's the same thing. Making a spinning cube is now almost the same length, the only difference is that you need to create an entry point, and include the GDK header, the rest is just the same. How does any of this take twice as long :/.

Van B
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Posted: 10th May 2008 13:17
Frankly if I can't make it work in DBPro, I wouldn't want to try in any other language. That's not to say that I'm against C++, I just think that the sort of coding I do would be far less fun in a more complex language.
If I was to learn C++ it would be to develop for another platform, probably the DS - I'm guessing that C++ is a lot easier when developing for completely standard hardware.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
ionstream
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Posted: 10th May 2008 23:57
Quote: "You guys both need to swing over to gamedev.net and say you're working on a project in DBP. You'll get burned five ways from sunday for using DBP, even though your project is far closer to functionality than anything they've worked on."


I went to their forum and searched "Darkbasic," and I could not find any scathing C++ elitist comments. Maybe I just didn't search deep enough, but they all seemed very nice and the general consensus was this:

Quote: "If the language will allow him to achieve what he wants to achieve, then it's valid. Otherwise, he should select another language."


NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:05
I think the best way to define this arguements is as follows:

If you want a file size in Dark Basic, use one simple command the name of which makes complete sense.

If you want a file size in C, spend four hours flicking through documentation using nonsensical commands and still failing.

That's the difference. And this is why, from my experience today, C is a poor language. It's fast; so what?


I fail at life. No, really.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:09 Edited at: 11th May 2008 00:12
I've definitely been involved in some conversations there that weren't quite as well-behaved. In general, attitudes on gamedev left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I haven't returned to their forums in a pretty long time. TGC is a very inviting and open community, whereas the gamedev is made up of some extremely rude people. I'm definitely not alone in thinking that, mind you . We've talked about that here in the past if I'm not mistaken... quite a few people are turned off from that community. So I think some of the anti-DB, pro-C++ sentiment you come across is usually mixed into individual game threads, or in reference to team requests and the like. I think it comes more from the rudeness in that community than anything else.

Edit @ Nex: It's definitely harder to use, and without libraries (making stuff completely from scratch) it takes 10x longer to make something in C++ than DBP. But the raw horsepower of C is just *better* all around than DBP. You aren't restricted to DX and all that. Both languages have their advantages and disadvantages, few would argue that

Benjamin
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:16 Edited at: 11th May 2008 00:20
Quote: "I think the best way to define this arguements is as follows:

If you want a file size in Dark Basic, use one simple command the name of which makes complete sense.

If you want a file size in C, spend four hours flicking through documentation using nonsensical commands and still failing."

Just because you can't code in C, that doesn't make it a bad language. It just makes you a bad C coder. The more comments you make like this, the more obvious it is that you've never used the language. Oh, and as for getting the size of a file:



NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:23 Edited at: 11th May 2008 00:24
I have used the language though! Google:

SandScape DS
DrumMe DS
StrumMe DS

All of which are admittedly badly written and deadly simple, but I can code in it. It's just so plain daft sometimes. It's almost as if someone sat there and thought "What's the most complicated way I can make this work?"

Quote: "DWORD fileSize = GetFileSize(hFile, NULL);"


That's not in libfat.


I fail at life. No, really.
Jeku
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:34
Quote: "That's not in libfat."


libfat is an API for C, am I correct? It's NOT the C language. That's like saying a DBP DLL is part of the DBP language

There are many ways to do simple things like getting file sizes in C, you just have to find the one you want.

And no, it takes about 5 minutes to look something on the net.

Quote: "it takes 10x longer to make something in C++ than DBP"


As you said, that's only if you are working with no libraries. Hello, most programmers don't do this. They use APIs like DarkGDK to make that init stuff easy as pie. Any programmer worth his salt will reuse functions and libraries so he doesn't reinvent the wheel.

The C++ Direct3D headache of initialization is nicely hidden from me because I wrote it once about two years ago. Now I just include the files and call Init as a function and bam!


nooby to fps
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:40 Edited at: 11th May 2008 02:50
Hey guys I'm new and i was just wondering that is there any other way that i can use fps creator direct 10x without having vista?

[MOD EDIT] - Pyramid scheme referral crap removed. Banned for 2 days.
ionstream
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Posted: 11th May 2008 00:56 Edited at: 11th May 2008 00:58
GetFileSize is part of the Win32 API, which you don't have the luxury of if you are using libfat. As libfat is an unofficial library for C, it can not in any way represent how good of a language C or C++ is.

Quote: "If you want a file size in C, spend four hours flicking through documentation using nonsensical commands and still failing."


This is ridiculous, you're basing this off of a library some guy made. I could make a plugin for Darkbasic and crappily document it, it doesn't mean Darkbasic is poorly documented or is a terrible language. MSDN has fantastically documented the C and C++ standard libraries, and provide examples for common problems, making learning C++ easier, but its still a difficult language to learn. Once you do though, then you can try making a game with it, because now you'll know how to use the language, standard library, and most importantly, the documentation.

Jeku
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Posted: 11th May 2008 02:52
@nooby to fps - Banned for 2 days for posting spam. I would slap you but I see you just joined today


SunnyKatt
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Posted: 11th May 2008 03:12
Quote: "TGC is a very inviting and open community,"


Thats why I go here. Best forums on the web. I dont even code in any TGC language and I still go here.

Benjamin
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Posted: 11th May 2008 11:48
Quote: "That's not in libfat."

Well I've never heard of libfat, but here is some code that uses the standard C library (instead of the native Windows API):



tha_rami
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Posted: 11th May 2008 16:43
Completely irrelevant, but:

Quote: "After all, I think OpenOffice is crap compared to MS Office."

I disagree .

C most likely is a brilliant language, sure, but for now, I'll just work through DBC, then DBP and then, hopefully, the DGDK. Seeing commercial-grade stuff can be made in DBC, I think I should end up being able to complete some of the projects I have written down.


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