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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] EGM refuses to review Metal Gear Solid 4

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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 20:55
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http://www.destructoid.com/egm-refuses-to-review-metal-gear-solid-4-88651.phtml

I think this is a big deal. Konami is barring reviewers from writing about the 90 minute cut-scenes (yes, that's plural), and the long install times (typical PS3 install). The only ones who get to review the game early are the ones who will do as they're told, so EGM is having none of it.

In my opinion 1UP (EGM, GFW, etc.) are the most honest reviewers with the highest degree of integrity, and this is even more proof. I didn't know about all these backroom shenanigans. I canceled my GameSpot account after the Jeff Gerstmann debacle, and now I'm considering doing the same with my IGN account. I will probably never play MGS4 because it's not interesting to me, but this kind of crap takes the cake.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:07 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2008 21:08
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90 minute cut-scenes, long load times - sounds disappointing - I thought it was a game. Always being behind a generation in PC gaming I've experienced the full force of long loading times...I still hate them...Summoner was the worst on my old Windows 98 PC (which is now long dead, RIP), yet I some how endured them. - right next to Far Cry on my current PC before I upgraded the RAM (which took about 3 minutes to load each level)

This might be a move only MGS fanboys will like... But omitting those elements from what the reviewers can say will lead to misrepresentation of the game - the reviewer provides an in depth reaction and experience to the game - censoring them will provide an inaccurate and unfair window on the game - considering the cut-scenes are as large as they are must play a big part.

So I can't blame EGM, I'd do the same, say "either let me review it properly, or I won't review it at all"... doing so now means bad publicity. Plus by Konami demanding that shows they acknowledge the load times and cut-scenes as a problem. (If they did that, wouldn't they fix it? That's where the bad publicity comes in)

MGS is one of the few games for the PS3 that interest me...maybe it won't have an impact on sales that much, but now that I'm beginning to catch up with the latest generation of gaming...I want to see my long loading times gone...Forever.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:12 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2008 21:16
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Long install times--- I hate. My PS3 is not a computer, so stop treating it that way.

90 minute cut scenes I can handle if I'm into the storyline and there's a way to pause and save my progress so I can resume it later.

But my biggest question is--- if Konami doesn't want players to know about the 90-minute cut scenes, why put them in the game? If it's part of the game, they shouldn't care if reviewers mention it. Very bizarre.

EDIT:

One thing about EGM, they're honestly really good. When Assassin's Creed was being previewed they didn't listen to Ubi's demands and now they're banned from all Ubi events. Good for them


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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:21 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2008 21:21
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Quote: "In my opinion 1UP (EGM, GFW, etc.) are the most honest reviewers with the highest degree of integrity, and this is even more proof. I didn't know about all these backroom shenanigans. I canceled my GameSpot account after the Jeff Gerstmann debacle, and now I'm considering doing the same with my IGN account. I will probably never play MGS4 because it's not interesting to me, but this kind of crap takes the cake."


Pretty rediculous.

Quote: "Long install times--- I hate. My PS3 is not a computer, so stop treating it that way."


Wtf, so you want fast install times and long load times? I don't see how you can get both, it's a one or the other proposition


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:25
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If a Gamecube can load Metroid Prime instantly without installation, a PS3 should be able to load MGS4 at least fairly quickly without installation. Installation. On a console. What a load of rubbish. I don't think Konami have amazing programmers if they need installation and 50gb of Blue Ray. There's a loose link in the chain somewhere.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:31
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Right, and Metroid has 90 minute in game videos.

I'm sure if Konami had a choice between instant loads or half hour installed, they'd sit around for a while, and decide half hour installs >.<


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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:33 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2008 21:37
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Quote: "Wtf, so you want fast install times and long load times? I don't see how you can get both, it's a one or the other proposition"


Uh, no. The 360 loads games just fine--- and there are no install times because of the restriction MS poses on developers. It's not allowed. On the PS3 developers are allowed to do it, so instead of being efficient and smart, they have an install that can take up as much as 25% of your system's hard drive. I'd rather have load times take a few seconds longer thank you.

EDIT:

I had an 8-minute install time for Haze. HAZE! The game does NOT look as good as other FPS' that have been released within the last year, and there were still load times. Installing to the PS3 does not always make the game better.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 21:50
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Quote: "Right, and Metroid has 90 minute in game videos."


Well, how often does your DVD player declare "Sorry, wait half an hour whilst I copy things to my internal space because my programmers were useless.."?

Videos should easily stream from the disc. I wouldn't be surprised if Blu-Ray playback is integrated into the PS3 SDK. Any programmer who works on something as high level as MGS and cannot achieve that ought to find another job.


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 22:34
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This is terrible! I want honest reviews! (points angrily to the guy on gamespot that reviewed halo 3)

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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 22:38
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Quote: "Videos should easily stream from the disc. I wouldn't be surprised if Blu-Ray playback is integrated into the PS3 SDK. Any programmer who works on something as high level as MGS and cannot achieve that ought to find another job."


Well yes, I doubt they copy the video to the ps3, but still. I don't see how programmers would just be like, meh, let's screw with them and make them wait 30 minutes for installation for no real world benefit.

I'm just not buying it.


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Oolite
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 23:06
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Conclusion: Loading times are bad.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 23:17
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Conclusion: Next Gen consoles are bad.


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 23:26
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Conclusion: Nike is bad.

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Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 23:29
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Quote: "I'm just not buying it."


Well then answer me why Devil May Cry has a 20 minute install time on PS3 and not on 360? There's obviously a reason. The performance was not better on PS3 as far as I can tell.

But this thread is not about another console war, so if you're here to fight then just shut it This is about reviewer integrity and how easily journalists bend over to the publishers.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2008 23:41
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sorry, I did get sidetracked didn't I.

Anyways, screw Konami, go EGM!


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Bizar Guy
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 00:22
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are the cut scenes literally 90 minutes long? I... That's ridiculous. I'd have to play it to understand I guess, but those would have to be some of the most incredible cut scenes out there and not make me feel feel like I should be playing through any of it.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 00:27
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Quote: "are the cut scenes literally 90 minutes long? I... That's ridiculous. I'd have to play it to understand I guess, but those would have to be some of the most incredible cut scenes out there and not make me feel feel like I should be playing through any of it.
"


It's all dialog. 90 minutes of pure dialog...


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Deathead
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 00:37
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Quote: "But this thread is not about another console war, so if you're here to fight then just shut it"

Must fight urge to post Console war post.lol JK


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Zone Chicken
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 00:46
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Quote: "It's all dialog. 90 minutes of pure dialog..."


BS, all my bd movies have 120 + dialog and they stream off the disk there is no loading.

Christ man hot shots golf has 3.4 gb install only runs at 720p and has freaking lag while the cpu player ai is calculating its shot in single player (lag as in all sound motion everything pauses first time i noticed it though my ps3 had locked up) sometimes takes from only 3 up to 15 seconds.

While i enjoy the system ps3 is not all its hyped up to be.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 00:58
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90 minute cutscenes (L). If they're good, I won't have any objections If they suck, I won't have any objections .


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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 01:19
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If they are skippable - Wont mind
If they are UNskippable - WILL mind.

I usually pay attention to the story of a game the second play through.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 01:33
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Quote: "Long install times"


Install times, I misread that one, not load times, I hate long install times as well...but on a console? Never heard that one before.

If the 90-minute cutscenes take up that much of the load times, then why have them, sure those 90-minutes could be explained in gameplay? It's a game, you play them, not a movie - cut-scenes, are usually to progress the plot...90-minutes is a movie not a plot progressor. (Though I don't see how 90-minutes of movie couldn't stream from a game disk, without having a massive load time)

I can see the movie thing being good for big fans, but if it's a part of the main plot, I wouldn't want to complete the game and feel a massive chunk missing. But I suppose a good game may justify it, but the plot would really have to have me hooked to sit through 90-minutes of straight gameplay. But it does seem that the Next Gen isn't being as efficient...but the console thing has been discussed in another thread.


Also, I think other honest reviewers should follow in their footsteps, reviewers should provide an accurate portrayal in their experience of a game, like a Journalist should give an accurate portrayal of the news. If you start expecting honest reviewers to censor something that makes a game weak, then that's giving a completely unfair review...so should have id software said: "We know the game's too dark, so please don't mention it to the reviewers, talk about the other stuff - like the big guns and stuff". The reviewer is a connection between the player interested and the game itself.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Zappo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 01:48
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Are you sure the cutscene rule isn't in place to stop reviewers giving away the story line? If they have put in 90 minutes of cut scene then they obviously feel its important to the story and don't want the contents given away. Remember, this is for 'previewers' not 'reviewers'. I think its fare to ask that spoilers aren't published before the game is even released.

As for the install issue, I have one question. How powerful are top gaming PCs and why do their games still require installation? Obviously the benefits are seen to outway the negatives of running directly from the optical media. Its no good saying that hard drives are bigger in PCs either because its easier to upgrade the HDD in the PS3 than it is in pretty much any PC. Obviously loading times will be better from the hard drive but it also makes applying updates and addons easier. Besides, I am sure if a PS3 game took a few seconds longer to load than its 360 counterpart the Net would sadly be filled with comments slagging it off - and not just from fanboys but from 'professional' reviewers too. One thing is for sure... nobody will be able to compare the PS3 version of MGS4 to the 360 version


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 01:59
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Fair enough, though PCs have always had the hard drive to hold your games and you'd use the CDs to just stream videos and music from, to save on your hard drive a bit (GTA III's disk is full of music, Final Fantasy VII and VIII with videos) whereas with console gaming there never was a hard drive and with todays technology, I'm sure it's doable and effective without installing to HD, like Jeku provided with his DMC4 example, no install on 360 and install on playstation.

I wonder what they're putting on that needs a HD?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 02:03
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Quote: "If the 90-minute cutscenes take up that much of the load times, then why have them"


Nobody said this has anything to do with load times. Just the initial install time.

Quote: "Are you sure the cutscene rule isn't in place to stop reviewers giving away the story line? I think its fare to ask that spoilers aren't published before the game is even released."


No. Read the article and the source if you need more info. I know it's hard for you to accept that there can be issues with Sony developers. Just remember this is Konami, not Sony.

Quote: "How powerful are top gaming PCs and why do their games still require installation?"


I'm serious--- quit turning this into a console war. This is not about install times. PCs have always had install times. It's not the same thing. You don't need a disc for most PC games (aside from copy protection). Consoles are meant to be played from disc. Do you really need me to tell you that?

Quote: "Obviously the benefits are seen to outway the negatives of running directly from the optical media."


PS3 developers have said the Blu-Ray seek times are slower than DVD, which is why the 360 doesn't need to do this. Also, you can buy a 360 without a hard drive. The PS3 disc drive couldn't wake a baby yet the 360 disc drive could wake the neighbours --- but it's fast.

Quote: "Obviously loading times will be better from the hard drive but it also makes applying updates and addons easier."


Ummm no. Add-ons and patches are still installed to the hard drive on the 360. Patches take all of 3 seconds.

Quote: "One thing is for sure... nobody will be able to compare the PS3 version of MGS4 to the 360 version"


Quote: "Besides, I am sure if a PS3 game took a few seconds longer to load than its 360 counterpart the Net would sadly be filled with comments slagging it off"


Honestly, what is your problem? Did you read my posts? Devil May Cry 4 had a 20 minute install time on PS3, and the performance is NOT better than 360s. Hard to swallow, I know.

Yawn. Quit turning this thread around already. If people are not mature enough to keep these threads from going downhill then they'll be locked. I simply thought it was interesting and vile how reviewers are told what they can and can't complain or make note of in a review, if they expect to get first dibs on exclusives. Oh well


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JoelJ
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 02:21
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holy smokes I would HATE that game... I can't stand long cut scenes... ick. Zelda - OOT's cut scenes were too long for me. In any game I can, when they're showing cut scenes, I skip them. I don't play video games to watch a movie.

And I have to agree with what was said a few times: I don't understand why you would have something in a game, and pretend it's not there. You can trash it if you're scared of it.

Install times... on a console... I'm not going to touch on how bad and stupid of an idea that is.

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Chenak
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 02:23 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2008 02:27
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Knowing the length of movie doesn't spoil anything, it is not important to the story. They obviously want to control what reviewers say about the game.

edited to avoid console arguements
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Zappo
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 02:32
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Quote: "No. Read the article and the source if you need more info."

I did read it, and the link to the story on Kotaku too. Is there something else which explains more? If so, please provide a link because I didn't see it.
Quote: "I know it's hard for you to accept that there can be issues with Sony developers."

Why would it be hard for me to accept? There is no need for snippy comments like that. Its not pleasant and very goading.
Quote: "I'm serious--- quit turning this into a console war. This is not about install times. PCs have always had install times. It's not the same thing. You don't need a disc for most PC games (aside from copy protection)."

Of course its about install times. That was one of the 'rules' apparently set for Konami which lead to EGM's decision and therefore this thread. Its a key point of this discussion.
Quote: "Consoles are meant to be played from disc. Do you really need me to tell you that?"

Who says? Are you dictating how modern consoles should work? Times move on. The media games are stored on moves on and improves. Just because games are run from a different media (HDD instead of DVD or Blu-Ray) why can it not apply to consoles if they have that ability?
Quote: "Ummm no. Add-ons and patches are still installed to the hard drive on the 360. Patches take all of 3 seconds."

Ummm yes. Its pretty obvious that patching and updating files on the HDD will be easier and these updated files only need to be checked in one location, rather than checking the HDD then checking the DVD/BD. If its stored on one fast medium its going to be quicker than checking two types of medium, one of which is much slower.
Quote: "Honestly, what is your problem? Did you read my posts? Devil May Cry 4 had a 20 minute install time on PS3, and the performance is NOT better than 360s. Hard to swallow, I know."

Actually the performance is better on the PS3. Whatever your view is, reviewers agree that loading times on the PS3 are quicker for DMC4. I read your posts and I read your comments which lets face it, look like your trying to start an argument. Why do that and then say you don't want a console war thread? I don't want a console war thread either but if you try to make me out to be some 'Sony is god' type fanboy then I will respond to correct you.


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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2008 02:47
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Locked. There's no point in arguing for arguing sake. I'll repost this on another forum.


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