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Geek Culture / Information not on the internet?

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BatVink
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 5th Jun 2008 16:59 Edited at: 5th Jun 2008 17:08
I have only ever encountered 2 things that I haven't been able to find on the internet, and one of them is happening right now. I can find 99% of my answers within 3 minutes, and 95% of those in 30 seconds. So I need to repair my reputation somewhat.

The question is this: In the UK, can an employer legally prevent you from taking a second job?

Any prize from the middle shelf for the answer

tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 17:08
From what I understand and gather, it basically comes down to he cannot, unless your first job has a clause against second jobs in your contract. In most cases it appears this is not the case.

There'll be someone around here who knows the UK laws better than a simple Dutch guy does .


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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 17:11 Edited at: 5th Jun 2008 17:13
A contract cannot overrule legislation. So the question is purely legal, not what is in the contract. An employer can add a clause that demands 12 hour shifts and disallows you from lunch and coffee-breaks, but he cannot enforce it.

By the same token, Dutch "cake shops" are illegal in the UK

tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 17:19
Well, it appears he can not. If the contract states that if you have another job, you can not keep your current job, he can fire you.

Completely unrelated, it does appear that there is an hour limit that you can work per week legally (48 hours?).

It's fun that contracts and EULA's cannot overrule legislation, isn't it?

Heh, we Dutch really have the drugs thing internationally, eh?


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Van B
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 17:22
I think that an employer can legally use this as a reason for sacking you, they can't prevent you starting a second job or even looking for one - but they can use that as a reason to get rid of you, saying that your incapable of fulfilling your tasks due moonlighting.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 17:26
I don't know much about the laws in the UK, but in the USA, an employer COULD prevent you from taking a second job, if (as The_rami said) it is a condition of your contract or some other form of agreement. No, the employer couldn't force you to do something like work 30 hours straight without overtime and no breaks as part of a contract, because thats just slave labor. BUT the employer COULD make it a stipulation of your employment contract/agreement that you work EXCLUSIVELY for his/her company and cannot take a job somewhere else. They might do this to prevent you from doing something like learning company secrets and then taking them to your second job and telling them to your other employer.

So I would THINK that they could do that by putting it in a contract. If you sign it, you're stuck. But I DON'T think they can just say "NO! you can't have another job because I say so!" They have to have some form of legally binding agreement saying you will work for them and them alone.

...but I am the ferret king!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! tremble before my ferret minions!

Zappo
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 18:53
I think what Omega said is right for here in the UK too. As far as I am aware there is no law saying you can or cannot be allowed to have second job, so if there is a term in your current contract of employment about it then you would have to abide by that.

Some places certainly don't want you working for someone else and would class it as a 'conflict of interest' if the second job is in any way related to the first or in any way affects it (e.g. by making you too tired or preoccupied to do what they ask of you). I have had restrictions like this in the past where they didn't want me to continue my own business AND work for them because there was some overlap in my duties and they were worried they wouldn't get my full attention.


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BatVink
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 19:01 Edited at: 5th Jun 2008 19:03
It's an interesting one. You might be a nuclear physicist by day, and a barman by weekend. Is it not an infringement of your rights to disallow this? Specific laws aside, they are restricting your ability to earn a living.

This is why I need a web site that explains it Debating it will throw up many pros and cons.

Omega gamer 89
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 19:43
It is not an infringement of your rights IF you AGREE to it by signing a contract.

...but I am the ferret king!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! tremble before my ferret minions!

tha_rami
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 19:49
Yup, signing a contract is by free will, so if that contract says you can't work at two places that is not an infringement of your rights.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 20:15
I suppose some contract signings that break the law can be infringement on your rights - but you don't have much leverage if you agree to them - if you're working 8 hours and getting less than 1/2 an hour break and it says that in the contract, then they can get into trouble - but you'd be a fool for not pointing that out, as you got to think about contract signing carefully as people can catch you out and turn around and say "but you agreed, I have it in writing", in a court of law you'd likely lose unless the contract itself has an unethical/illegal policy.

Which is why I suppose the question, is it illegal like the break vs hours thing? Is in your first post - as far as I am aware, it's not - had I caught this thread earlier I would have asked somebody I bumped into today (somebody I know who studies law at Cambridge Uni) but who knows when I'll see him again.

Best bet is to find a forum that covers law and ask people on there (I'm sure they'll have one) , that's what I sometimes do when Google has no answers for me - for example I was looking for books on certain aspects on Ancient History, google didn't provide the answers, Amazon didn't provide the answers (It had books, but when they're not physically there you don't know what's in them), the bookshops in Derby didn't provide the answers, the library didn't either, I found a History forum, posted there, there was an answer and most times you do find answers. (Though that bit of research is a bad example, because the recommended book was in Turkish, but it did lead me to finding a similar book in Cambridge)

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Luciferia
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Posted: 5th Jun 2008 20:26 Edited at: 5th Jun 2008 20:27
An employer cannot fire you simply for taking a second job. If he does, you can sue him and claim compensation. Unless you had a contract or other such legal document stating otherwise that you signed.
If your second job means that you become less efficient or less productive than expected in your first job then he can legally fire you for that.

So as long as you work just as hard, the legal system will protect thee.

Trust me, my mum is a magistrate. (Judge)
Satchmo
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 05:38
Legally, what is the smallest print you can put on a contract?


Phaelax
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 08:56
Quote: "No, the employer couldn't force you to do something like work 30 hours straight without overtime and no breaks as part of a contract, because thats just slave labor"


Umm, what? Must work differently over there, because overtime doesn't start until 40 hours. Technically, it never starts for me, I'm a poor salary man.

I believe an employee actually can legally keep you from another job, depending on who it's with. For example, if you want to work the Geek Squad at Best Buy, you'll have to sign a contract that you can't work for any other similar business for at least two years after leaving.... or something like that.


Jeku
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 09:57
Quote: "if you want to work the Geek Squad at Best Buy, you'll have to sign a contract that you can't work for any other similar business for at least two years after leaving.... or something like that."


But I don't think those are actually enforceable. I had to sign that when I joined my current job--- I'm not allowed to leave and take a bunch of employees with me. I'm also not allowed to work for anyone else in the industry for a year after I leave. That being said, I've seen lots of my friends leave for competitors, so it must be a scare tactic.

Technically OT here starts after 8 hours a day, and 40 hours a week.


BatVink
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 10:12
The clause preventing you from working for certain companies after you leave isn't enforcable. Which is kind of my point - even if you sign the contract, they will struggle to chase you on that one (and win).

Drew Cameron
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 12:50
My friend got a second job at another cafe and got fired for it.

Conflict of interest.

Jeku
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:23
Well yah, you can't work for a competitor. I had friends who worked at Future Shop (Best Buy) and they literally were not allowed to set foot inside of an HMV when they were employed there.


Dazzag
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 23:45
Quote: "Well yah, you can't work for a competitor"
We had an interesting one a few years ago. Our contract stated that we could not work for a competitor for upto 6 months after leaving our company. A friend of mine left and went straight to our most direct competitor. I mean they were so similar that not only did they do almost exactly the same thing, but their company came from a split in an old company. And the other company formed at the time was us. Even our systems (Over 6000 different programs) are almost identical upto a point (each company basically took tapes and printouts and rewrote the systems) and written in the same languages.

Anyways, our company took this bloke and the other company to court. For months he was not allowed to work at the new company and just stayed home. In the end the judge agreed with our company but said why 6 months? Why not 1 month, or 2 years for example? Our answers were not good enough and they won. Cost a bomb and he got paid (and damages probably) loads for ages playing games at home (they had to phone each day to make sure not at work, and in those days wouldn't have worked well from home on our system). Nice. Apparently it was a landmark case and we had the BBC with cameras at our doors and everything.

Also our contracts always said whatever programs we write while working there is the companies property. *Even* if it was written at home, *even* using languages we bought ourselves on our own computers, in our own time, even with languages that had nothing to do with our job (ie. never learnt them at work using their training) and even if we wrote something that was absolutely nothing to do with our job. Yeah, I'd like to see them hold that one up if it came down to it...

Another good one was whatever external course you get put on, then if you leave the company (ie. you choose to leave) then you have to pay a percentage of the cost of the course, which goes down over the years. This sort of makes sense, but is no good if they chuck you on something just for their benefit and did you little good and you don't use it. For example I went on a £20k ($50k) course for a week or two (was the 911 week so loads of fun. Plus my Granddad died, and we got bought out so lots of redundancies, so really didn't like that course) doing Cognos utilities (expensive MIS products). I knew all I needed to know but the company wanted me on them. Had I left the company that year I would have had to foot something like £15-18k of the original cost! Difficult to uphold that one too I bet. Bit different if you do an expensive network course and then leave to be a network manager directly afterwards (someone did that at our place).

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Current fave quote : "She was like a candle in the wind.... unreliable...."
soapyfish
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 06:23 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 06:24
I've known a photographer at a local paper who had to give up wedding photography because the paper told him he had to. Whether they legally had the right to do anything if he continued is beyond me.

EDIT:: This thread is now the top google result for can an employer legally prevent you from taking a second job

Inspire
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 06:43
Quote: "This thread is now the top google result for can an employer legally prevent you from taking a second job"


Heh, that reminds me, the other day I was googling something completely unrelated to game design, and three threads from here popped up on the first page. Weird.

Peter H
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 22:59
Quote: "This thread is now the top google result for can an employer legally prevent you from taking a second job"

Heh, that reminds me, the other day I was googling something completely unrelated to game design, and three threads from here popped up on the first page. Weird. "

Apollo is the source of all knowledge

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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 23:11
This thread is no where to be found on google for that question.

Keep in mind that google tailors searches to you specifically, so if it sees you click on a certain website a lot or something, it'll start pushing those pages towards the top.


Hurray for teh logd!

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