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Geek Culture / Games and Literature- a pus in boots debate

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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 00:37
I was reading a book about the broad subject of videogames and it made comparisons to literature. Although this is nothing new, the book seemed pretty biased and firm-rooted to the belief that videogames are flat out better than literature. While it makes some good points- such as immersion and active investment in videogames- it seems to suggest that videogames are the only way forward. Is this what gaming is pushing for? The book says that literature is a "dying art form" and that videogames are what will excel in education and cultural value. While I wholly support gaming as a serious and expanding art form, to think it is the only way forward is pretentious and overall just cocky.

Videogames as educational tools? That's where we're headed. Schools want "active learning" and mine has seen the extremes of this. I can see it now. Geography lessons will be spent on SimCity and my friends will eat it up, glad to be able to play games and completely ignore whatever educational value they may have. I will be unable to comprehend this, as a Geography book is what will get us through GSCE's and into college, not some PC game. Of course, this is an extreme example of gaming as an educational outlet, but it is on the horizon. What happened to revision books? Maths textbooks? They say these are passive activities and bore us quickly, but it's worked as long as the education system has been in place. We know we need to just get on with the work and although it's boring we get it done with a little vigour and focus. What is with this whole modern obsession with active learning anyway? But I digress.

Gaming and literature are respectable art forms in their own rights, but we can't simply dismiss the latter because it's been around longer. There's nothing like a good novel. To compare The Da Vinci Code to BioShock is ludicrous. Videogames let you see the experience unfold as dynamic consequences of your actions and for this, they are a good medium for storytelling and an active experience. But books offer so much. They open your imagination to the story, allwoing you to craft the unfolding events how you see them in your mind. Because what you experience when reading a novel is pulled directly from your own mind, you have a very unique and interesting story, because your imagination plays to your likes and interests. Who cares if you don't have jurisdiction over whether the main character dies or not? You see him die how you want to see him die. (Does that sound dodgy?)

So what's your opinion? Is literature on it's way out. Will videogames pervert literature as their popularity increases? Does gaming have any place in our educational system? Discuss.

If it feels good, it's a sin.
DB PROgrammer
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 00:58
So they wrote a book telling you that video games are better for teaching people, then books. Yet they use a book to teach you that?

BTW
Quote: "If it feels good, it's a sin."

What about when your helping someone?


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Inspire
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 01:59
Quote: "What about when your helping someone?"


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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 02:12
I agree that the book is incredibly biased. I've always stuck up for videogames as art - not so much for educational tools because it's not as relevant to me (by the time games are in schools I'll be way out of education). BioShock, Deus Ex and System Shock could all be classed as art, in my opinion. But that does not exclude literature. I've always found there's nothing quite like a book: it's completely self-contained, it's astoundingly portable, you can lend it to your friends and family (no DRM checks ) and it even SMELLS nice. (Uh, okay, I won't mention the smell again.)

And quite apart from the convenience of books, there are certain devices that work rather well in literature. If, for example, you want the appearance of all the characters to be obscured for some twist, you can do that in a book - you simply neglect to say what they look like. To do that in a game you'd need some clumsy device like putting everybody in shadow. Books allow you to focus on language: you can really appreciate the raw skill of a writer like Harlan Ellison due to his wonderful writing style. With a game, it's just an environment. Yes, it puts the player there, but you don't get the same display of skill. Also, you can pursue some really wonderful and impressive world-building with prose: take "Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman or The Deathbird (Ellison again). These both play around with time: both cut with surprising rapidity from one scene to another, from one time to another, even (in Deathbird's case) from one subject or style to another. He initially portrays the story as a written test in several fragments. Most of the fragments are pieces of story - but a few are essays written by Harlan, and some are multiple-choice questions or set tasks like "Discuss the difference between Positive Spin and Lies". All these questions are meaningful because they are placed after extracts which shed a new light on the question. The extracts themselves provide a break in the narrative - a little refreshment - and EVERYTHING ADDS UP TO A COHESIVE WHOLE. Everything in that story adds another piece to the view of the story as a whole - honestly, I cannot recommend it enough. I have yet to see anything as dextrously executed in videogames. I'm not completely convinced that such a thing could be done in a videogame. And, of course, many books deal with situations that simply would not be fun to play in a videogame. The Alteration, by Kingsley Amis, deals with a boy in a steampunk future where the church is supreme. The boy is a marvelous singer but his voice will break soon: the church wants to castrate him. Obviously, this will have other consequences. The book deals with music and art, religious devotion, a steampunk world and love. It was a really good read - but a game about a 10-year-old boy who goes around talking to people about matters of the heart would not be terribly exciting. Ditto for Brighton Rock, Heart of Darkness, about half of Edgar Allen Poe, Brave New World and the Island of Dr Moreau. All these *could* be made into games (I hear FarCry is a sort of updated Moreau), but they'd need a lot of altering and much of the original power of the work would be lost.

And my final nitpick - the idea that literature is dying seems narrow-minded. I'm currently partaking of a sci-fi binge, and I recently read Neuromancer, 2001: A Space Oddysey (it was *kind* of a book before it was a film) and I, Robot (NOTHING like the film). I'm now reading Valis. All of these deal with meaningful issues and all of them do it in a very upbeat way. (Valis is so upbeat it's actually beaten its legs into its head. It is one ****-weird contraption and I love it.) Not all books are stuffy Victorian romances and dusty poems! (Though I like those too...)

Okay, end rant mode...

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
RalphY
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 03:10
book is stupid...

I don't see literature ever going away. Sorry I don't have anything more insightful to add to this conversation.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 03:49
Written Literature: Ealiest discovered, approx. 1000BC
Ealiest Oral Storytelling: Unknown - the story the earliest literature is based on is said to be from around 3000BC
Games: Not even 100 years old.

Will gaming be the next evolution in storytelling? Like movies and TV appear to do? Movies and TV might replace parts of it.

Video games will not replace literature. Why? Because a number of video games have weak plots, they're poor at imersing you into the story - they can imerse you into gameplay - but not the story. Literature, they've have thousands of years in development, they're well equiped for the job and can really immerse your self. Computer games will only replace literature for those that don't like literature...which really isn't replacing. TV and Film are probably the only threats to literature - but books are still deeper, strong and a lot better than most TV and films.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
flickenmaste
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 04:10
Quote: "It's a sin. Survival of the fittest!"


lol....Writing a video game is like writing a book. The game is just visual story telling.books are story telling just not in a visual form. A really good book will keep you into the book until the end. A video game with good writing and a great story line will keep people playing!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 13:34
Now that I'm more awake, I'll provide a more in depth answer.


Literature and Video Games are different - games have just entered the on an art form, stories are probably one of the most ancient art forms around. But how does a game compare to a book, on terms of plot, lets actually compare 2 to try and make it fair. Far Cry is known to be a very good game, with lots of brilliant reviews etc. and lets take a piece of literature to compare - I started reading one of David Gemmel's book - from his Troy series (Shield of Thunder) - I've not even picked a top writer (apparently a good fantasy writer, but the book I've got has come very late in his career) Far Cry takes you from the point of view of Jack Carver, who is sailing in the tropics when suddenly blow out of his ship and his friend missing - he washes up in a cave, gets out by sneaking passed a couple of guards and this is where he is discovered by an employee through a device - they talk, he wants Jack to help him and he'll help Jack. Thus he has to follow a few mission for this guy - shoot lots of mercenaries, avoid helicopters, gather info and eventually uncover the unnatural activity where people have been experimenting on creatures that prove problematic. The story there - it's main plot unfold, is those creatures, right? These sort of enemies are common play in FPS games, Resident Evil had a few once you got over the zombies, same for Doom 3, Prey had them, FEAR, Gears of War, it looks like Bioshock has them too, but I've not played it so I can't say- all examples of regurgitated material, that have been done repeatedly in a very short space of time in some leading titles.

So plot lines aren't exactly brilliant for these sort of games, but what is it about these games that immerse you? Nothing really to do with the plot - yeah you want to be find out what happens, but how interesting are plots, how deep are they for you? How well do they work? Is it the action and gameplay that immerses you and not the story - is the story just there to justify a means? If you're blowing up mad creatures in the coolest way possible, there needs to be a reason - some linear plot-line to follow through in order to progress the game? That's probably why the plots aren't always that great. But in a computer game, where can plot work? Well if they think about it a lot more, if they've put more effort into coming up with ideas - using good and effective twists, keep forcing the player to asks questions other than 'what happens next' and make the player care about the plot more. How do you get somebody to care about a plot - this is where literature thrives, connecting the characters with the reader, have the reader care about the character, the people in their world.

So lets take Shield of Thunder - well I picked this book because it's something a video game has the potential to achieve - it's a journey you may find in an RPG, but the characters have moments of reflection and interaction, where the reader is attentive of what the characters are like - in this the two main characters have their own 3D personalities, one is more abrupt, quick to act yet not so quick to think and the other is a reflector who thinks an awful lot with an eye for justice, so he manages to get them in trouble, then at the same time is smart enough to get them out of trouble. Between these characters you get to learn a lot about them - their past, what they've been through and where they're going. You may learn things from other characters about them, their female companion you feel sorry for because she is human, like the rest of them and displays a range of emotions, holds doubt and can see where she can put her. The writer used Odysseus as a character, who has managed to reveal a few things about the reputation of other characters - sort of a device. Of course I'm saying nothing about what happens, because it'd be a plot spoiler.

So here you care what happens to the characters, because you can become emotionally attached. To be frank, if Jack Carver dies, he dies, do I really care? If one of the characters died on the novel above, like one of the main characters, I'd feel disappointed - yet curious what it means for the plot.

Of course, there are some really good plot games, Final Fantasy VI, VII and VIII being my favourites for it. And they've got pretty close to the depth a novel can go into - but there are so many things in a book that are difficult to replicate else where, especially with games, given their current standard. Books are less interactive - but you don't need to interact to feel emerged, because books can put you in the centre of something and feel you're there more effectively that a game - I think with a game, though interactive, you still feel as though you're a spectator, in a good book you can feel a bit closer than that.

Given for a number of readers gaming hasn't replaced books - I like to play games, I like to read. I think you'll find the gamers who don't reader and those who don't like to read. Society doesn't seem to emphasise books as much as games - but people still read a lot of literature and a lot of it is fantastic a lot better than any game.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Zappo
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 17:19 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 17:20
When it comes to education I think computer games can be an excellent aid to get your point across in an entertaining way. Not to replace text books but to work with them and help explain things in a more attention grabbing way. Young people especially can relate to them more. With some thought and discussion before and after playing the game, even if they aren't aware that the information has sunk in there is a better chance they will pick it up. As an example, reading a passage of text on how 'route mapping' works would be a lot less memorable than virtually moving around a maze measuring corridors as you go. Not a particularly good example but you get the gist. Obviously this applies more to 'fact' books than literature. With stories I think using and flexing your imagination is important although I don't see why computer games couldn't be used to tell new stories. Again it shouldn't replace written literature but it could be just as valid.

In general, the younger a person is the shorter their attention span seems to be (in my experience). Getting information across in a fast and fun way while they are focused is a good idea. Its a bit like seeing a practical demonstration of something rather than just reading a description. I will always remember my old physics teacher demonstrating warm air rising by holding large paper spirals over a flame and setting everything alight at the end. It turned out he did the same thing every year on purpose to make the lesson stick in our minds. It worked.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 17:22
I think people are taking a completely wrong way of thinking. Games nowadays can't replace literature yet. They might do that, later on. I mean, I prefer the story of Metal Gear Solid or Deus Ex over almost any book I know.


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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 20:24
Fair enough, but can you say the same thing for the stories of Rainbow Six Vegas and Need for Speed? At the end of the day, there are a select few games with stories comparible to the pool of good novels and although developers are pushing for innovation and refinement of storytelling, they are a long way off the point where they will all be making games with compelling, meaningful stories. The real question is: should they? Games should be about gameplay first and this consensus is broken only by those daring enough to bring a serious story into the mix.

Also, I just want to point out that this thread relates to gaming as a whole, not just it's storytelling. In other words, should gaming be allowed to take over literature and do you think it will?

If it feels good, it's a sin.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:07
Games I think should please the gamer, I mean game play is vital - it makes a game really interesting, but games do develop onto a level that uses plot, because it's somethings that adds to the game. But there are very few games that can compete with literature - it maybe more interactive, well Interactive Fiction was big once - because you got to choose what happens, you follow the characters around and IF games were good fun, but they didn't replace books because they still appealed more to people. Plus you can't sit down on the sofa listening to music and playing a nice game in the same way you would with a book.


Gaming won't take over literature - plays, opera, movies, music, TV are all art forms that are capable of storytelling (I'll say pictures was well, because some artists can manage story telling through a single painting) but people still settle with a good book. Literature won't be replaced, people might read less, because there's more being added to the entertainment market. Gaming isn't a threat, all of it's other possible threats have happily sat beside it.

The only way literature will grow weak or obselete is if the books in circulation now aren't availible any more and if people aren't capable of writing anything good from there or people become illiterate.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Jeku
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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:45 Edited at: 6th Jun 2008 22:46
I have never played a game with as interesting a story as, say, Count of Monte Cristo or The Shining. Books are passive, in that you read and take it in, with the characters doing everything on their own. In games, because you direct the action, it can't even be compared to a book or a movie.

Half-Life 2 is an interesting environment, akin to 1984. The storyline and the plot was nothing special. Good guys versus bad guys, zombies, and lots of shooting. When I read 1984 this year, I got sucked into the storyline and characters in an incredibly deep way, where I cared to see what happens to the characters at the end of the book. That kind of thing just can't be carried over to games, in my opinion. Since when did you care what happens to Mario at the end of a game? He always lives and saves the day. Yawwwnnn.


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Posted: 6th Jun 2008 22:48
I think Jeku's probably said it in the right way, yet concisely.

Though I really ought to read the Shining (I've not really picked up much King, despite him being a big writer) as my flatmate let out his rants about the movie onto me, mind you he put up with my Hollywood rants, so it probably made it even.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 01:06 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 01:06
Well, I've never had any bond with any literature character compared to, let's say Solid Snake or for example, J.C. Denton. Never had, and probably never will be - in games, you live adventures. You áre the person, you're living the adventure. The characters around you are your friends, your pals and your brothers in arms.

Of course, there are different types of games. Arcade games don't have a story, but using Mario to compare games to literature is like comparing Donald Duck to the story in Metal Gear Solid.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing how Solid Snake will end up after MGS4 - if Snake dies, I'll most likely end up either sobbing or crying, lol. The guys' my James Bond.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 01:13
In that case, go and read some James Bond books and the two of you can get some Bonding (I made a pun)

Apparently really good books to read and of course he's not meant to be anywhere near as sweet as he is in the movies.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 02:38
I read two of those. It was forced, luckily, otherwise I'd have bugged out halfway. Don't get me wrong, I'm a reader type of guy, but I've never seen any story grab me as much as some computer-game stories can.


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Inspire
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 02:42
I enjoyed the Halo books.

But the books I have really enjoyed is the Ender series by Orson Scott Card. They really should make a sequel to Advent Rising. That's a great game.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 11:39
Quote: "Solid Snake will end up after MGS4 - if Snake dies,"


Heheheh, enjoy your 90-minute cutscene boredom......

tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 14:24 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 14:24
Thanks, I will. I'd rather watch that 90 minutes cutscene than most movies nowadays. Knowing Metal Gear Solid, it'll be something worthwhile, mind-boggling and impressive.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 15:56
90 minute cutscenes, that's plural, seriously, who has the attention span, (other than fanboys), to sit through cinematics that are that long, and un-skippable, I mean, that's how long your average family movie is.......

Pus In Boots
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 19:43
Hey, don't say that about MGS! Now apologise. You made Snake upset.

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tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 20:20
Unskipable? Every cutscene in Metal Gear until now has been skipable, including the epilogues. They wouldn't change that, and they didn't as far as I can see. You're blowing things out of proportion. What I understood, MGS4 has a 90 minute epilogue. That's all.


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Jeku
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 21:09 Edited at: 7th Jun 2008 21:10
I'd be just as worried about unpausable cutscenes. Not sure if they are, as reviewers are not allowed to talk about them until the game is out next week.


tha_rami
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Posted: 7th Jun 2008 22:09
I just realized that. That'd be bad indeed.

Well, I think it's better that they can't say something about cutscenes than that they say "only 80+ scores!"


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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 03:16 Edited at: 8th Jun 2008 03:18
Quite apart from the character side of things, some stories simply cannot be covered by games. Yesterday, I finished reading Valis. This is the single most screwed up, convoluted, out-of-this-world book I've read. By screwed up I don't mean sick or psychopathic or anything: it's just amazingly insane. The author is Philip K Dick. The protagonist is Horselover Fat ("Philip" translating into "Horselover" and "Dick" into "Fat" - so Fat is a representation of the author). Near the beginning, Dick reveals, "I am Horselover Fat, and I am writing in the third person to obtain much needed objectivity". But then, quite soon after that, we get sentences like "I talked to Fat about this a little". Which just makes no sense. This is partially autobiographical (I think) and partly philosophical: I think maybe Dick's trying to show his *true* character through *untrue* events. It's also about God - and whether or not the universe really exists - and if there's a giant laser firing information into peoples' heads. It's got a whole load of really weird ****. Now, I honestly doubt that someone could make a game out of all that (unfortunately). But, as a book, it really was a joy to read. (Though I don't think it'd be to everyone's taste.)

Don't take any of this the wrong way: I'm a big advocate of games as a storytelling device. But when books and games are compared (particularly regarding storytelling) I just feel that (most) books tell better stories. Of course, the one thing games have over books is the "you" factor: it's not some random guy doing all that stuff, it's actually *you*! Which opens up some wonderful plot twists ala Bioshock.

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 05:46
Videogames will not replace books.

That would be a firm statement. From the developer's side, it's like writing a book, from the player, it's like reading a book. Some videogames have weak plots. (YES, EVEN IN PRODUCTION STATE WHERE YOU'RE POSTING A CONCEPTUAL NO ONE WILL EVEN CARE EVEN YOU'RE ASKING FOR SOME HELP IN ANY WAY.)

But can a videogame teach in-depth AutoCAD? Discuss Visual Basic 6? Provide a more in-depth discussion of The Godfather? (This novel is pretty hard to understand.) I'd laugh at it. I'D REALLY LAUGH AT IT.


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tha_rami
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 06:16
Well, yes, videogames can do all three things you listed.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 06:28 Edited at: 8th Jun 2008 06:30
But will games grab the preference of people? I mean there are other (perhaps stronger) rivals that haven't displaced literature?

Dark Kiwi, I've been meaning to read Philip K Dick, I mean the movie Bladerunner showed some of the guy's greatness and people's recommendations, though some of the other movie renditions aren't as good, like Minority Report and Next (which I only watched today) Of course movies never doing the books justice, hence I want to pick the guy's novels up.


Also, just to throw in the question:

How would people turn Pride and Prejudice into a game, regarded by many as an exellant piece of literature - I'm not into the romance stuff and I liked it. But obviously picking a piece of the classical library, but I want to see how these novels, which people do love can be replaced by gaming?

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 06:35
Last post pun intended.

suicide arts; hard. hard enough. Reading is quite a different immersion that in gaming. In reading, YOU CREATE YOUR WORLD, the world that you're reading. In gaming, the world is already there, you can't expand it.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 06:42 Edited at: 8th Jun 2008 06:43
It's definitely a different immersion, only a couple of games have even come close to immersing me in the same way as a book. But books have always story higher in terms of storytellling, but games have always had a good fun/art factor.

In terms of entertainment literature, games, TV and music all fulfill different needs and I maybe tempting to do one at one time and one at the other.

[edit]

Yes, [ritual] suicide arts. Not an optimistic name, but what the hey.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 07:30
It's a nice name actually.

What the hell - they're both fun anyway. Cheers.


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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 19:50
Quote: "Dark Kiwi, I've been meaning to read Philip K Dick, I mean the movie Bladerunner showed some of the guy's greatness and people's recommendations, though some of the other movie renditions aren't as good, like Minority Report and Next (which I only watched today) Of course movies never doing the books justice, hence I want to pick the guy's novels up."

Blade Runner is actually quite different from the book - but in a good way: they changed what needed to be changed for a movie. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? is an excellent book in its own right. I like both of them (book and film) but I think of them as separate entities.

Minority Report - I've only ever seen the movie so I'm not sure how it compares with the book. And as for Next...

Oh dear... you got me started on Next...

That film has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STORY! THAT MOVIE WAS A CRIME AGAINST CULTURE AND AGAINST THE MEMORY OF PHILIP K DICK!

Okay, calm, calm, calm... The original PKD story was called The Golden Man, and it was about mutants in the future. Mutants are beginning to evolve and become more adaptable and more versatile than mankind. Mankind wants to get rid of the mutants, since they're not too keen on being wiped out. So they manage to capture this mutant who has golden skin and can see into the future, as though he were playing a chess game and could see several moves ahead. They keep this mutant locked up - but his golden skin also acts as a sort of hypnotic golden lion's mane for females, and the wife of the main character is so allured by this mutant that she lets him out. He then impregnates her and escapes. The moral of the story is, "the mutants will win".

Compare that to Next. You have Nicholas Cage playing a guy who can see into the future. Mutants? No. Post-apocalyptic landscapes? No. Friggin' terrorists with friggin' nukes! We've had too many terrorist movies already, I'm sorry but it's become a cliche, even if it is a "current affairs" type idea.

A lot of Dick's stuff is apparently not very good - but a lot of it, to quote the Sunday Times, "made most of the European avant-garde seem navel-gazers in a cul-de-sac". I recommend Do Androids Dream, A Scanner Darkly and The Man in the High Castle. Though I enjoyed Valis I'm not sure I could actually recommend it to anyone.

Anyway, sorry, back on topic...

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 20:11 Edited at: 8th Jun 2008 20:14
I've never been so moved by a video game (or movie, for that matter) that I cried. I have cried to books.

Until video games become a virtual reality art form, they cannot replace books.

Perhaps when virtual reality becomes a reality, it could infringe on fiction's territory.

Instead of reading the thoughts of characters, you could just ask them. That'd be pretty cool.

Perhaps that's what the authors were talking about?


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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 20:32
Of course books won't be replaced by videogames-- that's insane.

They said the same thing about television. I remember in high school I read a book called "The Last Book You'll Ever Read" and it was a futurist (I forget his name) claiming that e-books will replace books. That was over 10 years ago and books are still a huge business.


bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 20:35
Quote: "claiming that e-books will replace books. That was over 10 years ago and books are still a huge business."


Well, I don't think books will go away completely. However, "e-books" is not a too far out there idea.

If devices like the Amazon Kindle take off I could see them putting a dent in physical sales. I know if I owned a Kindle I certainly wouldn't be buying many physical books. However, the Kindle is a bit too pricey for my liking.

But in another 10 years, something like the kindle would probably be in every home.


Hurray for teh logd!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 21:21
Quote: "Perhaps when virtual reality becomes a reality, it could infringe on fiction's territory."


Perhaps game will become so advanced with virtual reality that you can actually walk up into Borders, buy a book, sit down and read. Maybe then it'll replace books, simply because they'be cutting down less trees.

Quote: "Blade Runner is actually quite different from the book - but in a good way: they changed what needed to be changed for a movie. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? i"


Yeah I figured it would be different from the book, by renaming it I think they've made themselves honest on the matter (Instead of making a movie about the book, but the director doing what he felt needed to be done) Hence you get Stephen King fans complaining about Stanley Kubrick's rendition of the Shining.

As for minority report and next, movie wise they were okay, I think won't watch them again. But sorry about getting you onto a rant there. But your rant explains why the movie felt a little out of place, Nicolas Cage was just Jack Bauer with special powers. But cheers for the recommendation (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? being the obvious one to look into first)

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Jun 2008 21:34 Edited at: 8th Jun 2008 21:35
Quote: "Perhaps game will become so advanced with virtual reality that you can actually walk up into Borders, buy a book, sit down and read. Maybe then it'll replace books, simply because they'be cutting down less trees."


Heh, virtual libraries. Awesom. But I think we're getting away from the spirit of idea of "games taking over for books".


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 9th Jun 2008 01:47
Well it's the closest I could get to it taking over.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
TeamASP
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Posted: 9th Jun 2008 06:51
Virtual libraries?

Ehem, while doing Photoshop work, you switch windows to see what's next on the e-book tutorial.

I'll go for the books, they don't take much room in my RAM.


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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 9th Jun 2008 22:44
Quote: "A Scanner Darkly and The Man in the High Castle."
I got a skanner darkly on DVD a couple of months ago. It's a really good film and it's dirt cheap. It's also pretty weird, but from the sounds of it the book was too. And it's all done in cel-shaded style, which gives you a whole new appreciation of the film.

Anyway, e-books seems like a silly idea. I struggled reading three chapters of Frankenstein on my computer monitor, but I can read a regular book for hours on end. My brother has to physically remove me from the stories at one in the morning some nights. That just won't happen when your reading it off a computer. Also, books have the advantage of mobility.

If it feels good, it's a sin.
Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 00:16
Oh I don't see physical books leaving anytime soon. There's just something about turning pages and the smell of a new book. A Kindle is cool, but that entire "book" feeling goes away. Once they perfect digital paper and can make an EBook feel like a traditional book, but it can be switched out for other books, then I will be glad to see the traditional ones go.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th Jun 2008 11:58
Quote: "Anyway, e-books seems like a silly idea. I struggled reading three chapters of Frankenstein on my computer monitor, but I can read a regular book for hours on end."


Agreed, we had to read Metamorphosis for an assignment, the tutor provided a PDF - I bought the book anyway.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 11:37
I read whole Harry Potter 7 on a computer screen. No problems at all, here.

PS. I bought the book when it came out, too.


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Pus In Boots
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Posted: 12th Jun 2008 20:23
Speaking of Harry Potter, I heard that J.K. Cowling (yep) Made up some "prequel" crap on a scrap of paper and it sold for 27 grand. Ugh...

If it feels good, it's a sin.
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 00:59
I would feel sorry for the person who bought it... but... no.

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 01:44
I wouldn't. If you're stupid enough to spend 27grand on something like that then you should be held to blame for your own misgivings.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 13th Jun 2008 23:39
Hence the
Quote: "but... no."

Just clarifying.

I'm not actually a Kiwi, I just randomly thought it up one day.
Pus In Boots
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Posted: 14th Jun 2008 01:15
Quote: "Just clarifying."


Just clarifying that clarification.

If it feels good, it's a sin.

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