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Geek Culture / What Is The Point??

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Game King
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 06:54
I've been thinking... What is the point of learning how to code in DBPro or in any other made up game programming language. When we all know that the main programming languages used today are C,C++,and Java. Why waste our time on those, when we need to learn the main ones?

I know it'll be good to start off in the gaming career, like to know about game design, graphics, and all of that stuff. But once you familiarize yourself with the basics, why go further with those made up languages that are irrelevant to your future? Please explain.
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 06:59
I don't personally see a reason either as well. Just for a hobby I guess.


soapyfish
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:04 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 07:06
A lot of people, myself included, have no intention of going any further than 'just a hobby'. I have no plan to ever look for any kind of career in the game industry. If I did however, the concepts I learnt with DB (loops, if statements, functions etc etc) would give me a boost when it came to something more complex, rather than diving right in at the deep end.

If I was coding in something like c++ I could quickly flesh out a game in DBP to check that the core concepts and ideas worked before moving onto a more complex language.

Xenocythe
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:16
If Code.Complexity > MediumComplexity# then Language.TheoryTesting = DBPro

3.11 We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present.
JoelJ
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:29
if you pay close attention, those who get really serious, usually end up moving on into something more serious...
At least, that's what I've noticed.

[center]
Zotoaster
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:50
DBP is perfect to start with. It gets you to grips with everything, and unlike when you learn C++, you can easily make something.

If I started C++ I would get bored on the first day because all I could use is std::cout.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Game King
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 07:59
I have 4 years experience of creating games, and reading about game design (basically all of the elements). I don't want to waste my time anymore on these languages, BUT like Zotoaster said it's easier to make things and to "show off".

So... i dont know what to do lol.
dagger24
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 08:10
Well what are you plans for the future? What goals do you have for a career? Focus your interests and build your skills in what you will need to accomplish your goals and intentions.

Plus, making games and showing them to a possible employer looks stellar. Even if it's made in DBP, just don't tell them what you made your games in. You'll have an edge because you've shown you have the willpower to make games...

Good luck.
Zotoaster
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 08:10
It's not really showing off. It's a way to inspire you to make games. I wouldn't be satisfied with having text show in a little blue window. When I first got DB and made my first 3D scene all these ideas came rushing through me.

I had plenty of time before getting to the professional stuff anyway. DBP got me very far. C++ was just the next natural stage.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 09:19
Why go to the drive through for a burger when you can slaughter a cow?.

Most of us here make games for a hobby, C++ is far more complex and takes a long time to learn. Besides, it's not like game designers use C++, they'd use some form of scripting language - engine programmers need to know C++ and tend not to design games. The way I see it we have to do it all, there's very very few C++ developers that can do it all in comparison.

DBPro is IMO the best solution for solo developers out there.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
Alucard94
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 10:13
Lol "Hey you wanna go and eat at Burger king?" "Nah screw that, I'll just go out and slaughter a cow, it's much more professional"

If someone says "pls" because it is shorter than "please" I say "no" because it is shorter than "yes"...
SunnyKatt
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 15:30
But keep in mind that you don't HAVE to move on to a more "serious" programming language.

Unless you really need the speed or extra features, you can just stay put. A good quote by a guy on another forum concerning GML versus C++ (he had been using C++ for several years and stepped down to GML)

"Why use 2 sticks when you have a lighter?"


I like the analogy because it fits perfectly. They both make a fire.
Unless I NEED the stuff C++ has to offer, I'm not moving on.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

Don Malone
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 16:12 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 16:19
I have to agree with what everyone is saying. If you want to program professionally, there are many options, and Basic is still one of them. You will want the best tool or language for the job or task at hand.
C++ might not always be the best choice for a project. If you want to flesh out an idea for a demo or idea pitch. How long would it take in c++ to get the idea presentable. In DarkBasic (or even one of the other similar languages) you could mock up a demo showing basic control, movement and environment in a shorter period than C++.
If you want to create a front end or GUI for a program, maybe Visual Basic or C# would be the tool you would use.

That is the message that has been spoken since I have been here and it is as true today as it was then. I agree with VanB and others that DarkBasic is the best type of language for a solo developer and hobby programmers.

Making nothing for the forth straight year; or is it five years now?

Diggsey
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 16:29
Different languages have different purposes.

Some uses of DBPro:
- Concept
- Learning to program
- Speed up game development for single developers
- Fun

C++ is not great for even one of those purposes!

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 16:30 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 16:30
Quote: " What is the point of learning how to code in DBPro or in any other made up game programming language. When we all know that the main programming languages used today are C, C++ and Java. Why waste our time on those, when we need to learn the main ones? "


There was time, not too long ago in fact, when assembly was the only serious language for games. It still is

Zappo
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 16:32
And don't forget that you can continue to use Dark Basic Pro, then write add-ons (DLL's) in C++ for tasks where you need the extra speed/power/flexibility. Best of both worlds.


Chart data provided with kind permission from ELSPA
MSon
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 17:24
I managed to teach my 9 year old brother the "Basics" to make a Textures Spinning Cube in DB, thats Extream Basics, But if I tried in C++ or almost any other language, he wouldn't of lasted 1 Minute, Every now and then he brings up the DB help and has a read, and as its pritty basic, he can understand parts of it

Quote: Positon Object ObjNum,X,Y,Z - Positions a 3D Object, pritty Basic

I've never seen how to do this in C++, it i bet its not that easy

Everyone Be Cool, You, Be Cool.
Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 17:26
Quote: "There was time, not too long ago in fact, when assembly was the only serious language for games. It still is"


Exactly! - C++ coders these days don't know they're born!.

I still have my copies of ST Format where Peter Molyneux did a monthly tutorial on learning Assembly for games programming, anyone remember a little unicycle firing golf balls into holes?.


less is more, but if less is more how you keeping score?
IanM
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 19:21
Quote: "I like the analogy because it fits perfectly. They both make a fire.
Unless I NEED the stuff C++ has to offer, I'm not moving on."

You can make a bigger fire faster with C++ though

Quote: "Exactly! - C++ coders these days don't know they're born!."

Yes I do - I know the exact date!
Seriously though, C & C++ do give you the opportunity to dip under the hood (lots of people don't take that opportunity, but I do - my function pointer plug-in uses C++ & assembly, and I have a resonable working knowledge of DBPro's _virtual.dat) - the VM-based languages don't even do that.

David R
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 19:53 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 19:56
I completely fail to understand why everyone says C/C++ is so difficult. It's difficult to completely master C/C++ (because as with most complex languages, there's a lot to master).

But getting started is fairly simple. I had pong going within about 3 days (learning in between) with Allegro, and used that as a "springboard" to do more (current doing a game with box2d irrlicht and winsock).

Going from a BASIC language to C++ may be scary I suppose... but I'd say it's hard to gauge, I didn't stay with DBC/DBP very long (and C++ has more structural similarity to languages I did prior to DB)

EDIT:
Quote: "Some uses of DBPro:
- Concept
- Learning to program
- Speed up game development for single developers
- Fun"


Concept - you can concept in any language you understand. This is a fairly useless point.

Learning to program - You need to learn to code DBC/DBP in order to learn to program - so in that sense, learning C++ is the same.

Speed for single developers - Use third party libraries. Not exactly hard

Fun - Learn the language, and it is fun. As with anything, practice makes perfect, and the better you get at it, the more you'll appreciate the simplicity (but sheer beauty) of the language. Also, debugging C++ is very rewarding when you fix a nasty bug (anyone on #lobby on devhat will be familiar with my "YESS!!!" after fixing a segfault etc. )


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
5Louiz
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 20:00 Edited at: 18th Jun 2008 20:04
Firstly, let me say that DBP is the best easy to use solution available in the market, in my opinion. Some of the coolest games I played were made in DBPro. But I have some points in the topic.

Quote: ""Why use 2 sticks when you have a lighter?""


Lighters are better than sticks: more efficient, more secure, do not smell so bad, can keep flame for more time, easier to activate and deactivate, waterproof et cetera.. So.. that passed far from being a perfect analogy.

Quote: "Quote: Positon Object ObjNum,X,Y,Z - Positions a 3D Object, pritty Basic

I've never seen how to do this in C++, it i bet its not that easy"


Why do BASIC users think that you need to build everything from scratch in C++? That is a little bit of ignorance. You do that only if you want a customized control over things at low level. I used to think in the same way when I used an easy games creator program. I change my mind when I met Flash's action script. I have a project to be developed in C++. I use OGRE for graphics' manipulation. Here is the translation of your code to OGRE C++:

node.setPosition(Vector3);
or
node.setPosition(Xf, Yf, Zf);

Clean! Node is an object to which you can attach meshes, particles systems, lights, and manipulate them together. That is a very small sample of high level of control achieved with ease and incomparable performance.

So.. just remember that people choose either DBPro or C++ for totally different reasons.

Cheers.

SunnyKatt
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 20:27
Quote: "Lighters are better than sticks: more efficient, more secure, do not smell so bad, can keep flame for more time, easier to activate and deactivate, waterproof et cetera.. So.. that passed far from being a perfect analogy."


Wait... all you did was help the analogy. ???

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

ionstream
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:19
DBPro is great for getting started in programming or if you want to make a simple program quickly. It's also pretty decent if you want to write an entire game in it, but it's not the best. I too use C++ and Ogre, but I learned a lot from my experiences with DBPro.

I think people who try to learn C++ get hung up on pointers, so I'll see how well I can explain it in the future.

Jeku
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Posted: 18th Jun 2008 22:32
As David R suggested, if you have APIs like Allegro, FMOD, and Ogre you can develop substantially faster in C++ than if you're starting from scratch. There's things in C++ that make more sense, like using objects to describe your game world, and having multiple threads. DBP is great for prototyping and I can see game designers using it for that.


5Louiz
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 01:43 Edited at: 19th Jun 2008 01:46
Quote: ". ???"


I disagree. No. No. No.

One of the rules for good writing, in my opinion, is to avoid analogies. They sound beautifully sometimes, but are rarely efficient when written. For example, if I am satisfied with burgers, I obviously would have no interest in killing a cow. If I am not happy with the available burgers, I either kill a cow and make my own the way I like it or give up on burgers - this is a good analogy with the reality, in my opinion. I bet, for example, that people made many plug ins to handle things that DBPro sucks at doing. And guess what they used to make these plug ins? C++, Delphi...

I can not pass without mentioning that I have seen more mockers of c++ than of easy to use tools. I have never seen one saying bad things about use easy solutions in a forum that is mostly frequented by C++ users. But I see this kind of behaviour really often here. I have seen some people who program in DBPro, which is an extremely easy language, mocking people who use gameMaker and other solutions that require almost no programming knowledge. Seriously. All we need to know is that people choose tools for different reasons. Comparing is senseless.

Cheers.

dark coder
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 02:23
Well now that GDK is free as is VS(though you still need to buy GDK for anything commercial) there isn't much use for DBP(for me at least), the only difference is that C++ is harder to learn due to the amount of extra features it has and more programming concepts you must learn(well, you don't have to). I've been using it for a few months now and won't go back, the work flow is just so much more logical and the compiler/debugger are so much better that they can't really be compared.

I agree with 5Louiz, too many people think it's infinitely harder to do things like spinning cubes using C++ when in DBP all they are doing is using a library like you would with GDK, try deleting the basic3D.dll and ask them to do it in 3 lines .

SunnyKatt
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 03:29
All analogies can be tweaked a bit. But that one sticks to it pretty well.

Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 20:00
Quote: "GDK is free as is VS"


I've got Visual Studio, and I dislike it a great deal. It's painfully, painfully slow, for a start. It also uses over 200mb of RAM inexplicably. Plus, due to a well-known but unresolved bug, scrolling with your wheel set to full pages causes an instant hang.


I fail at life. No, really.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 20:12
Yeah, MS can be a pain when it comes to RAM, that's why I never really got into Visual Studio on my old system. Though to give them credit, MS Office and Direct X 10 I think are great performance wise and I saw a performance increase between 2005 and 2008 in Visual Studio.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
PAGAN_old
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 21:52
I find dark basic easier than a lot of other languages. I have always wanted to make a game. Dark basic was a good start for me. I have been at it for 3 years but i still feel like a newbie to this. I did attempt a few other more advanced engines with vb and c++ but it was way too hard and boring. dbp got me to the fun stuff right away.

dont hate people who rip you off,cheat and get away with it, learn from them
David R
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Posted: 19th Jun 2008 21:56
Quote: "I've got Visual Studio, and I dislike it a great deal. It's painfully, painfully slow, for a start. It also uses over 200mb of RAM inexplicabl"


I'm using MSVC under a virtual machine, and it's still fairly fast and responsive, using roughly 70 meg of RAM per instance (although a lot more whilst debugging)

Obviously it depends how you've got it configured + what language/project type you're developing though...


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 10:46
Quote: "It's painfully, painfully slow, for a start. It also uses over 200mb of RAM inexplicably."

Interesting, it's never used anything near that amount of memory for me, and I've always found it to be very responsive even with 4 instances of the IDE open.

NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 20th Jun 2008 18:53
The boot time for me is about 3-4 minutes. My PC is 4 1/2 years old and made out of 5-6 year old components, although it runs Oblivion no problems.


I fail at life. No, really.
Yodaman Jer
User Banned
Posted: 20th Jun 2008 19:52
I happen to like BASIC a lot. I don't know all there is to know, but I'm slowly expanding my knowledge. Right now, for the 5th time at least I'm working on this game based off of SPHERE HOPPER in the code base. I'm just trying to make it a lot different so that it's NOT a remake of SPHERE HOPPER. I like the functionality of BASIC and I really am looking forward to see what V1.20 of DBC has to offer. I just haven't had enough time to install it.

Anyway, like most other people I don't really plan on making a career out of game making. I would rather have it as a hobby. And yes, I will still get a girlfriend because I also play 'lectric guitar.

*Ahem* Anyway, I plan on video editing as my actual career someday.


www.freewebs.com/jelproductions/
David R
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Posted: 21st Jun 2008 00:10
Quote: "My PC is 4 1/2 years old and made out of 5-6 year old components, although it runs Oblivion no problems."


My machine is around the same age (2003) although it has more RAM than it was originally built with (2GB)


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0

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