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Geek Culture / Dialog writing for Geisha House

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Cash Curtis II
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Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Jun 2008 20:26
Hey all,

I've got a request to make of some aspiring young (translation: cheap) writer. I need NPC dialog for Geisha House. When NPCs aren't busy getting their faces stomped in or trying to stomp yours in they'll be busy talking about stomping your face in. Basically, I'm looking for a variety of idle conversations of various topics.

I'd like to have a lot of idle conversations. I would hate for someone to keep seeing the same thing over and over. It's bad enough when my dwarf doesn't realize the skeletons dancing around him are about to skewer him but if all he ever says is 'Nice weather we're having!" then he'll be completely braindead.

NPC conversations will take place between -
Two NPC vendors
Two NPC sailors
NPC vendor and sailor
Two women
women and sailors, vendors
Shopkeeper with vendors, sailors, and women
Orcs with orcs

There are 3 different types of conversations -
1. Greeting
2. Conversation
3. Goodbye

NPCs that pass each other (or the player) will issue a greeting. If they end up not passing each other they can go on to a full conversation about something. If they've entered a conversation and then part ways then they'll say goodbye.

Converstions can be long and short. They should be interesting. I'd love for players to try and exhaust each and every exchange that can take place between NPCs. They can be funny, serious, whatever. They just can't be dumb. They shouldn't contain archaic language. Nor should they contain pop culture references. I'd love to have lots and lots of conversations that cover a large variety of topics and lengths.

They don't need to be game specific or job specific. NPCs have other phrases for their jobs and when things happen to them, when they fight, when they get angry, etc. This is just idle NPC talk and will not have anything to do with the game, except maybe an Easter egg or two.

Here's a Youtube video showing a little talking taking place...



The conversations should be formatted as such...


Basically an NPC will be picked to initiate and the reponder will reply in turn. Then the conversation thread will progress. The above piece is a full blown conversation. A 'hello' would be one message...



I was very tempted to give each NPC their own greeting style, but the reply would need to match the greeting and that would be pointlessly complex. It probably wouldn't work out all that well either...
the hello - 'Top of the morning!'
the possible braindead reply - 'I'm good, how about you?'

I could sub categorize them based on the greeting type - hurried, friendly, angry, etc. In any event, I'll keep the greeting and responses together. The exception is if one party is really angry, they'll have some rude replies, but that's totally separate.

The 'rudeness' is for angry conversations to take place. If two guys get mad they can fight. I've got an anger system in place already, I'll just take the rudeness factor and add it to that system.

If you've made it this far then bless you I don't mind having separate conversation authors, after all different conversations between different people don't have to conform to too much of a convention.

So, are you up to it? If you are interested show me a sample of a conversation before you dive in and invest time. Writing isn't for everyone, big deal, but I have to be picky about what I put in the game. If you're interested give it a go.

Thanks!


Come see the WIP!
Mnemonix
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2008 20:50
I would be interested, but it would be easier to write the folklore of the gaming world. Something that would be cool could be pseudo-news events that happen in the world at random intervals, but don't really affect the game. This gives people things to talk about. Also it would be good to have some kind of history/religious grounding to supply a steady amount of topics. Almost like creating an encyclopedia of the game folklore through text.


*psst* I have a sqlite file based database plugin which would be well geared towards storing and processing large amounts of textual data, when you only want to pick out certain parts.

TheSturgeon(playing me at chess) : I will use my powers of the horse and pwnzor you.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2008 23:58 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2008 00:02
I've got time off - I'll give a couple of samples a go and see what you like.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 01:08 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2008 01:12
@Mnemonix -
I love that idea. That would really give things life, it would be evident that the NPCs aren't just there to take up space but have a world in which they live.

That would be a lot of work, but it would be fantastic. Of course, I'd want regular stuff talked about as well.

The conversation system I have set up now is pretty flexible. If the news events system was integrated we could add scripted flags that would be set off when a random event occurred. NPC>player conversations could reflect the topics that are at hand. That would be player specific, but very easy to do and completely scriptable.

I actually searched the forum for 'database' yesterday and came across your plugin. It looks fantastic. I did some research on sqlite and found it quite appropriate for a real time game database. I think it's overkill for Geisha House though. I'm using LUA which allows me to build tables. I've set up relational systems where necessary. The thing is that I never have to run a query of any sort, I directly access table fields by name. My whole entity system is based on that. It's quite fast and effective. I am very interested in the plugin, though. I'll need it eventually and I'm glad that it's available.

Topics like history and religion would be fantastic. Other things, like common gossip, gambling, and crime would be good too. They could tell each other stories too. That would be interesting to eavesdrop on. Conversations could also be confidential, in the same way that they can be rude. If you walk up they'll stop talking about whatever they were.

I'm very interested in this approach. Let me know what you have in mind.

@Seppuku Arts -
Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing your work.


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 02:28
Though I do want to ask - how much dialogue do you need? I've got 2 months off left from Uni, with some stuff to do. Apologies if I've missed anything that points to length or time, I haven't given the post a proper read through considering I'm tired.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Sid Sinister
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 06:37
Depending whether or not I get fired from my job this week, I might be able to write a few dialogs for you. I love seeing your work, so if I have the time I will definitely help you.

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
Inspire
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 06:53
Heh, I'd like to do some, mine would mostly be easter eggs or humorous unless instructed otherwise.

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BatVink
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 12:24
Cash, I think you have a typo in your code - "conversatonLength"

Also, I'm guessing you are using Lua here? In which case, you could use table.getn() to count the number of entries. This would make the process more reliable, if you ever change dialogue and forget to update the conversation length.

Hope that helps!

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 13:13 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2008 13:14
@Batvink -
"conversatonLength" is code for something totally unrelated to 'conversation length'

I am using LUA. table.getn() works great, I even made a wrapper function that returns the number of array elements using that. There are issues though. It won't count named elements, so if 'walker={}' then it won't include that in its count.

There is anothr issue as well. I switched to Barnski's LUA plugin because it's superior to Unity in every way except for one minor issue - you can't access un-named table arrays. For instance, this is useless...

Quote: "
walker={
{message=""},
{message=""},
{message=""},
}
"


'{message=""},' can't be accessed. I coded a wonderful workaround that did work. The weird thing is that it would only work if no text commands were included in the project, such as 'str$()' and 'text'. If one was, even if not executed, then my command executing workaround won't work at all. That one took me a while to pinpoint. Instead I have to do this...
Quote: "walker={
i1={message=""},
i2={message=""},
i3={message=""},
}"


...and now 'table.getn()' is useless. I don't actually have to have the count though, I could just iterate through the i's adding a numeric string until 'message' returns nothing. I just always put the count, even if I don't use it. I have no idea why.

@Seppuku Arts -
Quote: "how much dialogue do you need?"

A lot. I don't want any repetition at all. It can be written by different people though, so if someone is interested in writing only stories people are telling each other then that's cool.

I want enough so that there will always be something new when the game is being played. I'll probably turn off conversations that have taken place.

@Sid Sinister -
That would be great, the more the merrier

@Inspire -
Quote: "Heh, I'd like to do some, mine would mostly be easter eggs or humorous unless instructed otherwise."


Humorous would be fine, it would be terrific if people were telling each other a funny joke. The Easter eggs won't be as useful though. When I say Easter egg I'm talking about something secret in the game that you overhear someone talking about. For example, in Ultima VII there was a parrot in the middle of the forest that said a bunch of nonsense. But, if you listened for a while it would spout off some grid coordinates where there was buried treasure.

********************

Pretty soon I'll set up a part of my messageboard for this. All of the writers will be able to see all of the writing neatly organized into threads, but it won't be accessible to people that aren't involved. If you do want to get involved then post a sample of some writing and maybe an explanation about what subjects you'd like to cover and how much you'd like to write. If you are covering a subject I'd like quite a bit to be written about it so that everyone can be talking about it. Other subjects, such as gossip and general talk, don't have to fit into any kind of convention.


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 15:35 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2008 15:36
Here's a couple I've written:

Two NPC Vendors:


Two women


I hope that's the sort of thing you want.


Also, I hoping I've understood your code right, I've put filled them in as I've interpreted (let me know of any errors of course. ):

The Two NPCs and the Smuggler Geoff convo



"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 15:45 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2008 15:48
Found this one on the internet, changed it a bit to fit your lore. Not copyrighted, just a joke without any clear creator, so I believe it's common.

Quote: "Durin of the iron hills once came to visit the proud King of the lands.
"Sir", said Durin, "We have decided to go to war with ye."
The proud king looked incredulous, but took war seriously.
"We? Who is this we?", he said sternly.
"Well, that would be me, me brother Thorin, his son Durin, our cousins Olin and Golin, and our pop Thrain."
"My good man, I have 1100 brave men at my command that can be ready to move on a moment's notice.", said the king.
"Oh.", replied Durin. "Let me get back to ye on that."
The messenger left, but returned two days later.
"Ok king, we have rounded up two more cousins and we a few axes between us all."
"Tell your king that I have 300 of the finest archers around, plus my royal guards are all excellent warriors, armed with swords of sharpness."
"Oh, well, I see." The messenger hesitated for a moment. "Let me come back to ye."
And he left to return again in two days.
"Ok king, we have rounded up a few more swords and I think we are ready".
"You should know, my good man, that I have since raised the size of my army to 1300."
"Ah no!", and the messenger left. He came back the next day.
"Well king, I am afraid we have to call off the war."
"I am sorry to hear that. Was it the power of my army to change your mind?"
"Nah, I spoke to all my kin and we decided that we just did not have the room for 1300 prisoners.""


I liked that .


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Alucard94
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 16:19
Rami that's gold

If someone says "pls" because it is shorter than "please" I say "no" because it is shorter than "yes"...
Erios
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 22:47
Here is an idea, but I don't know if this will fit into your game well. What if you turned some of the idle chatter into a game mechanic? For example, what if you overhear certain NPCs talking, and you hear some gossip. This may or may not have to do with the main storyline of the game. The player character could then get a "gossip token" (or whatever else you could call it). The PC could then take it to a specific NPC, such as a barmaid, hotel owner, etc. and trade them in for a buff. If the player decides to take it upon themselves to confirm it, it could be like a min-quest. Completion of the confirmation would make it a "golden gossip token", and could be traded in for an item instead of a buff. Just an odd idea.
BatVink
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 00:03
Cash, that's useful to know, thanks for providing so much detail on the issues!

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 00:11
@Seppuku Arts -
That's good. It's rather random, compelling enough to listen to, and personal enough to be an actual conversation. If you have time I'd love to have more.

@tha_rami -
That's conversation that would take days to complete If I was the king I'd make Halloween decorations out of their heads for wasting my time.

@Erios -
It's not a bad idea at all, but it wouldn't fit. If I have something that I want tied into game mechanics I don't want it to be very random. So, that would be programmed into the character's normal repertoire of speech. I could make it so that once a certain condition was met the two would hang out until you showed up then they'd have the conversation in question.

When any condition is met a game flag can be activated which can unlock any game events tied to that flag. Once you've heard something it could unlock any number of other conversations, any of which could activate a quest or a reaction or a profit. I just think that the idea of a gossip token is a bit artificial. Btw, what's a buff?


Come see the WIP!
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 01:04
Quote: "That's good. It's rather random, compelling enough to listen to, and personal enough to be an actual conversation. If you have time I'd love to have more."


Cheers, and sure - I had your usual meet and greet conversations in mind - admittedly dialogue writing is something I need to work on, so I'll have more to give.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
wind27382
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 02:19
wow I see your still working hard on geisha house. This is a real inspiration to us all.

wind
Zaibatsu
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 06:35
If I get the time, and the idea, I might contribute something

Diggsey
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Posted: 24th Jun 2008 18:59 Edited at: 24th Jun 2008 19:02
@Cash
You could add it to a 'knowledge database' which you can then talk to other people about. Eg. if you hear someone say 'Bob went to prison' it could be added to the database, and you could then have the option of saying passing that information on to another NPC, possibly gaining a reward or task to be done. After a certain amount of time, this knowledge could become useless, so it would drop off the bottom of the knowledge database Just an idea

Another idea I had was to make some conversations 'dynamic' so depending on events the happen (for example, the player may kill another NPC) they could then talk about it, even share information, so one NPC might have seen the player with a weapon nearby, and if he happened to talk to the NPC who found the body, they might 'discover' that it was the player who did it.

Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 00:22 Edited at: 25th Jun 2008 00:24
Quote: "Another idea I had was to make some conversations 'dynamic' so depending on events the happen (for example, the player may kill another NPC) they could then talk about it, even share information"

That would be easy to do. When anything happens you can set a game flag as a reaction to it. A game flag is nothing more than a script based variable. Conversations can be locked or unlocked based on flags. The key to making it work with this system is to implement Mnemonix's news system as a prioritized list of conversation subjects. Items near the top are more likely to get talked about and eventually will drop off the list. Other topics, such as 'I wish I didn't believe in goblins' won't ever leave the list.

I'm not going to implement a system quite as advanced as you suggest though. For example, if someone dies then other NPCs can talk about it. If someone witnessed the murder then they'll all hate you and try to kill you because we're assuming that they all had a big town meeting about you as soon as you left the screen. If nobody witnessed it then it will just have to be added to the X-files and talked about like that. I'm not actually going to have an NPC find the weapon and have that one talk to the NPC's best friend about possible forensic leads, that would be needlessly complex. Any NPC talking to another just has a good chance of talking about the murdered NPC. Any NPC that finds a weapon will pick it up anyway. Of course, a weapon could be special and be set up so that an NPC intentionally finds it and talks about it.

As far as news events tied to game mechanics, that would be easy to work in with the existing system. Like I said, anything that happens can be tied into anything else. For instance, if you have a news event that happens on day 3 you can unlock any number of quests tied to it. You have access to a single game flag, but also to a game 'egg', which is a LUA programmed function with direct access to the game's functions, DBP's commands, and the game flags. Through that function anything can be implemented.

@Seppuku Arts -
Looking forward to it

@Zaibatsu -
I hope you do, every bit helps.

@wind27382 -
I've been really busy lately, so I just haven't been updating my progress much. I really enjoy doing it but it takes so much time to get something presentable. I'm going to wait until I have reached another milestone.


Come see the WIP!
Alucard94
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 00:39
Wow I really respect your work! Your game has always been the only thread in the WIP board that I have been really interested in. Wish I could help but to be honest, my dialog creation isn't all that great =)
But I wish you well and can't wait for this to be finished!

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Roxas
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Posted: 30th Jul 2008 15:02
Quote: "
1: "Charlie! Its the magical vortex!"
2: "Not this crap again..."
"


Alucard94
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Posted: 30th Jul 2008 17:03
@Roxas:

Put a banana in your eeaaaarrr


On topic, any updates?


Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 31st Jul 2008 01:40
I'd completely forgotten about this thread. Here, have a conversation:


It's a little long, but I had fun writing it. Here it is in scripting format (though you may want to double-check it, and maybe tweak the rudeness values)



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