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Geek Culture / Metal Gear Solid 4's secret message

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flickenmaste
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2008 21:08
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/weekinreview/22itzkoff.html?no_interstitial

I dont know if it is true!


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Xenocythe
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2008 22:50
I think I wasted my time reading that article, yeh?

The whole thing sounds absolutely ridiculous. So many video games are out that could 'invoke' whatever. So Kojima decides to make it about an atomic weapon- automatically it's related to Hiroshima and the war in Iraq?

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flickenmaste
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 00:19
true...I agree with that...but you never know. Im hardly belive its true tho!


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Deathead
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 00:59
Really, why do people just waste their time. Games turning into peoples problems is just stupid as it is just a bunch of codes masked with Polygons and a storyline at the end of the day.


Agent Dink
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 04:22
What, you don't think that game designers design games to parrallel with world history, current events, or possible future paths? Designers use symbolism alot. I dunno exactly what this article was getting at but I'm sure that the designers fully intended to share what they feel about the current world situation through the game. Why not?

If someone writes a novel in a similar fashion is it questioned? No. Why are games questioned?

tha_rami
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 04:50
Of course there's a message. If nobody does it, someone has to.


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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 09:59
I tend to liken games with political slants to the same bin as artists and celebs who want to preach at me their political views. I could care less what Bono has to say about tree frogs in New Guinea, and I could care less what EA has to say about the situation in Iraq with Army of Two. If I want a lecture I'll watch the Discovery Channel or travel to the nation myself.


ionstream
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 11:09
Maybe they meant there's a secret massage?

Pus In Boots
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2008 22:47
Quote: "Maybe they meant there's a secret massage?"


"Snake, this is highly innapropriate!"
"Aw, c'mon Otacon. You know you like it."

[giggles]

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Haven Studios
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Posted: 25th Jun 2008 08:20


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 00:17
Quote: "I tend to liken games with political slants to the same bin as artists and celebs who want to preach at me their political views."

And that's precisely why so many people refuse to accept us as legitimate artists. That's why so many "regular people" think that game developers sit around and "play" video games all day, and somehow games are made through doing that. We'll never be accepted as true artists if we don't push the envelope, and I don't mean graphically.

A lot of movies have messages, and many of them are extremely entertaining (Hotel Rwanda, Crash, Children of Men, Babel, and Full Metal Jacket to name a few of my favorites). I've never seen it written in stone that games have to be simple-minded and stripped of cultural relevance in order to be entertaining. I've never met a game developer who wasn't an artist, and artists should always have the right to choose between entertaining people or expressing their views and vibes, or both.

One of the games we're working on right now definitely has an underlying message regarding a major issue in the world today, and if it makes even one person in all the world stop and consider the issue we're bringing up, then the game's hidden message has served its purpose. And for everyone else, it's [hopefully] fun . I would honestly feel irresponsible and incompassionate if we didn't use games, on occasion, to tell the world how we feel or to say "hey, here's this issue you need to know more about." Not with every game obviously... just with some of them.

Chenak
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 00:35
I don't mind a game with a deep story that has messages relating to the current day events, as long as its fun and the message is put across in a way that isn't completely in your face. Lots of games have them, sometimes its just hard to notice with the mindless violence or other gameplay aspects. I can't name one game with a decent storyline that doesn't relate to current or past events, politics or whatever...
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 02:10 Edited at: 26th Jun 2008 02:12
The sides of politics can make an interesting plot line - it may not be shoving it down your throat.

But some do political messages because there are important things in the world that are ignored by the majority and people actively try different ways to deliver the message. Though Bono can be annoying and may not always do things justice. But you can see messages in a lot of places, which also makes good plotlines and even satire - notice how the episodes of South Park that were made to mock Britney Spears and Michael Jackson, seem to say the media should get off her back and that Michael Jackson isn't a sicko.

If a game goes for this, it's no different to the 1000s of books, movies and TV shows that do it - I think it's good that movies try to make a point - you don't have to agree with it, but it gives that point something to think about. Hotel Rwanda being based on the actual events in Rwanda can put the situation into the perspective of things and makes you ask the question 'why did the UN leave them there?' And 'why did the rest of the world ignore it until a convenient time'

The messages make great art, 1984 is a brilliant book to read, Star Wars is a good film to watch, System of a Down is great band to listn to, last week I was in the V&A and saw a great painting to do with Chernobyl and no doubt MGS 4 (if it really is political) will be a fun game to play.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 07:41 Edited at: 26th Jun 2008 07:43
All I can say is I won't be looking to videogames *or* movies to learn about current events, and for those that do, you're pathetic . Newspapers, websites, books, and the news does a good job of being balanced when grabbing from multiple sources. I look to games and movies for boredom relief.


Agent Dink
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 08:03
The absolute worst decision you can make is trusting the biased mainstream news sources. Stick with non-affiliated websites and books. Steer clear of TV and Newspapers. They'll feed you whatever crap they want.

Matt Rock
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 12:45
I'm not saying you should keep informed by watching movies, but in most instances the vast majority of your audience probably aren't aware of certain things happening in the world, or they might not care. Games, movies, etc. give you the chance to entertain people, while at the same time informing them on topics that people might not otherwise be aware of. I'm not saying we should all start making "Free Masons: The Game" lol, but I don't see anything wrong with an artist using their medium to express their views, especially when it's a cause worth supporting. If it can entertain people, and at the same time provide them with the desire to look into an issue on their own time, then I'd call that true expression .

And again, I don't think Mario should tackle the blood diamond trade in Sierra Leon, and I'd be pretty ticked off if Sonic was sent into Iraq. There are movies for entertainment, movies with messages, and both. I think it all comes down to personal taste. Personally, I'm a fan of movies that make you think, but not *all* of the time.

Oraculaca
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 13:04
Quote: "I could care less what Bono has to say about tree frogs in New Guinea, and I could care less what EA has to say about the situation in Iraq with Army of Two."


If you could care less does that mean you care a little bit?

tha_rami
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 13:12
Lol @ Oraculaca (jeez what a nickname).

I agree with Matt, games are an adequate way to express thoughts, feelings ect., and not using them to do that is a waste of their potential.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 13:40
Quote: "All I can say is I won't be looking to videogames *or* movies to learn about current events, and for those that do, you're pathetic"


We don't mean using movies/art/books as a News source, but they can be a way to emphasise or represent a problem. If you're going to have an art form, you're going to find the artist will express whatever idea, emotion, thought or message that comes to them or they believe should be exressed. If an artist believes there's a problem with wars in 3rd World countries, they'll use their tools to represent and capture it. If they feel there's a message to be given, they'll give it.

If an artist makes you think, I see it's a good thing. Of course as Matt has rightly said, we don't need that all of the time, hence Sonic hasn't gone down to aid the West's attempt to fight the 'war on terorism' to only find the horror of war, where his companions die - where Sonic finally realises that he likes the pain-in-the-butt Amy, but it's too late because she stepped on a mine. Or Knuckles is captured and is given electro-shock torture. In the end leaving Sonic haven't a mental breakdown, like Rambo he's become betrayed by his country, as he's disposable, and goes on a rampage killing everybody in sight. Mind you, I suppose Robotnik has weapons of mass destruction.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Jeku
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 18:23
Quote: "especially when it's a cause worth supporting."


Well that will be the opinion of the game designer, as almost every cause has gray areas and multiple angles. I don't want John Carmack's personal political views crammed down my throat when I play Doom.

Quote: "and not using them to do that is a waste of their potential."


Mario not having a deep message about Africa is a waste of its potential? Entertainment without an agenda is not a "waste of their potential", that's just ridiculous. Enterainment is there to entertain. If I rent An Inconvenient Truth, I am interested in learning something about that, and will get in my political and social mood. Playing Metal Gear Solid 4 with a monkey in a diaper and giant mech robots does not inspire me to get in a social political mood. If I'm into that, I want to be entertained... period.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jun 2008 19:01
Believe it or not, politics can make for an entertaining plot, sometimes they can get you thinking.

I don't know if MGS will work as a game with a message, or even if it's intended, because it might not be.

But the entertainment value can be effected if the plot has a political or social side to it, because it's a means of connecting to the audience, they might relate, then they might not.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 00:42
It is, Hideo Kojima has repeatedly said that. MGS is made to make us think about Meme, Genes and Scene, basically.

In any case, for someone complaining that he gets taken too literal too often, you're taking me far too literal, Jeku. Good games usually make people think while entertaining them, except the typical sport or shootergames. Bah.


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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 01:03 Edited at: 27th Jun 2008 01:06
I guess some people have a high tolerance for politics in their media. I have little to no patience for any from either side, unless I choose to get somebody's opinion. To this day I have never bought a game with the intention of learning something about history, politics, the environment, or anything else that would resemble world news. I get enough unsolicited preaching from Hollywood movies and celebrities these days to last me until I die.

EDIT:

Quote: "Good games usually make people think while entertaining them"


Just a thought-- can you name a game that "made you think" about the world in a different way? A cutscene in a game can be enough to light a fire in your soul and convict you to make a change in the world?


Chenak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 04:40
Quote: "Just a thought-- can you name a game that "made you think" about the world in a different way? A cutscene in a game can be enough to light a fire in your soul and convict you to make a change in the world?"


GTA, kill, rob, destroy Joking... O.o FF7 kinda made me think about the possibility of corporate greed destroying the planet when I was playing it when it first came out.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jun 2008 13:24 Edited at: 27th Jun 2008 13:25
FF7 was interesting in that way - the planet defending itself, Gaia (relating to the Gaia hypothesis) the 'life of the planet being sucked up'. It made for a good plot as well and it wasn't preachy. I can sypathesise with 'preachiness' there Jeku, because I too don't like preachers, they just shove it into your face as though your opinion doesn't matte, but chucking something 'meaningful' into a game, movie, book or any piece of art, if it makes you think, it can be good, but it doesn't have to force an opinion on you, you just hear the opinion of the artist come through their art. If you don't agree with it, you don't agree with it.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
tha_rami
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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 00:09
Quote: "Just a thought-- can you name a game that "made you think" about the world in a different way? A cutscene in a game can be enough to light a fire in your soul and convict you to make a change in the world?"

Any moment in life can light a fire in ones' soul. In any case, yes, some games make me think, other games teach me things, other games make me want to investigate things.

Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid (1, 2 and 4) and games focussed on (fictional) politics.


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Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 01:14
Metal Gear has always been packed with messages about the genome, nuclear proliferation, etc. Kojima loves his little quips, lol... "Yeah, but you don't know how good a cigarette tastes in the morning." And GTA does take a satrical look at a whole lot of topics. I love the talk radio stations in all of the games of the series, if you listen to those long enough you'll hear a few silly little messages here and there. Fallout... that's one big huge message, hehe. If we expect games to be considered art as films, novels, and music are, we should be allowed to express ourselves. I think that most developers don't express themselves like that because they want to avoid being controversial, unless they work at Rockstar of course . But I totally see where Jeku is coming from... I don't think *every game* should have a message. If I were watching Spaceballs and Darth Helmet started talking about how evil Reagan was in the 1980's, that movie would find its way off my list of favorites, hehe. But if I rented Babel and it were filled with knock-knock jokes and slapstick, I'd want my money back lol.

A good person to bring up here is George Carlin (not because he recently passed, but because he's a really good footnote for this topic I think). I've met people who've disagreed with his views of god, politics, and corporatism, but still found him absolutely hilarious. They don't care because it's still funny, regardless of how much they disagree. He's the polar opposite of, say, Radiohead (yeah, I know, sue me lol)... 90% of their songs have a message, but it's up to the listener if they want to sit down and think about it, whereas with Carlin, you're hearing the message whether you want to or not, and you're only left to decide if you'll take it with a grain of salt or get offended during a standup routine. Brilliant . Anyway, I think those are acceptable in instances where the expressed views of artists aren't directly involved in the plot. But again, it all comes down to personal tastes I think. Not everyone can sit down and enjoy a movie like The Good Shepard, but it does appeal to a certain audience.

Jeku
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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 03:27
Quote: "But if I rented Babel and it were filled with knock-knock jokes and slapstick, I'd want my money back lol."


Are you telling me Babel had some kind of deep message?

Quote: "and you're only left to decide if you'll take it with a grain of salt or get offended during a standup routine"


It's a lot easier to get offended if somebody is mocking something you believe in Obviously he doesn't offend you because he doesn't say anything you don't agree with. You don't *choose* to be offended.


Matt Rock
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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 01:06
Babel definitely had a message... more than one you might say, but it's a good example of a movie that doesn't force-feed world views on you. The message is there if you feel like looking for it, for everyone else it's just a Brad Pitt movie. They were more clever about it than, say, Crash, where the message is in your face. Not that I disliked Crash, it's one of my favorite movies, but that movie is designed to deliver a message first and entertain second, whereas Babel is the other way around.

About Carlin, I don't think I've met anyone whose been offended by him. Then again, the most religious people I know are "online friends," and politically, I don't have many friends who disagree with him. You're right, thinking about it I can definitely see him offending people, but I dunno... he said some things I disagreed with, it was just too darn funny for me to get ticked off hehe.

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