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Geek Culture / ATI or Nvidia

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:09
I want to find out which brand is best.

ATI produce cheap cards with the same features as the Nvidia cards, but I've heard ATI perform slower than Nvidia because of some sort of code that disallows ATI to perform as well as a Nvidia card. Is this true or is it just fan boys putting ATI down?

Alucard94
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:15
Simple answer, Nvidia. (Even though I have an ATI card )


jasonhtml
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:31
i've used nVidia for as long as I can remember. And whenever I go to friend's houses, we always have problems with their ATI cards. So, nVidia forever!

JoelJ
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:40
ATI was recently bought out by AMD, and they're making all their new drivers open source. Other than that, I think AMD will get the ATI cards going strong.

I have bought 2 ATI cards years ago (9600pro and 9800pro) and they both still work, no problems, never had a problem.
My friends all buy nVidia cards, they have to keep sending them into nVidia to be replace because different things don't work, all sorts of things going wrong. They don't mind it so much, because it keeps their video cards new

With that said, jasonhtml just said he had the same thing but the other way around. And the next 5 people will all say opposites.
I don't really have a whole lot of preference. But in my honest opinion, I think nVidia cards *NOW* are ahead of ATI cards. So if I were to buy a new card, I would get an nVidia.

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Silvester
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:40
Nvidia has more Compatible games, ATI has alot of games that will run retardedly slow, or just not run at all.

I was testing BioShock on some ATI PC, to see if it was any faster, well... It ran faster, yes... but it also killed all the graphics, since all the effects acted the wrong way, and the colors of the game also went madness every now and then.

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Zaibatsu
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 18:53
I like Nvidia cards

Agent Dink
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 19:00
Nvidia for me =]

Veron
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 19:16
Yeah, nVidia here as well. Having used a few of their 8 series cards (8800GTX and 8600GTS), I have extreme confidence in nVidia, and i'll be using their cards for life!

The price and quality of nVidia cards simply can't be matched by ATI, although AMD can really breathe new life into the ATI range of cards.


NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 19:54 Edited at: 12th Jul 2008 19:55
Two words:




I fail at life. No, really.

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mm0zct
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 20:42
please do your research before you go shouting out brand names, and back up your statements

you might want to take a look at the new ati/amd hd4850 and 4870 reviews... nvidia aren't really as ahead of the game so some of you seem to think..

for starters the new 4800 series is the first to break the 1 teraflop barrier, 1TFlops for the 4850 and 1.2TFlops for the 4870

i'll admit the nvidia 280 is on the whole the most powerful card, but the 4870 beats the 260 in a lot of benchmanrks (and i'm talking gameplay not synthetic) and the 4850 is hot on it's heels. (4870 beats the 280 in a few games too, by quite a margin)

bang for buck 4850 is at the top of the list currently as far as most reviewers are concerned.

the 4000 series fixed ati's anti aliasing problem and in a lot of cases the impact of enabling AA is fairly minimal.. in contrast to a few card generations ago.

and if you're going to argue physX/havok physX is being ported to the ati cards too, not just the nvidia ones.

here's a few supporting articles/reviews (including comparisons with nvidia 9800, 260 and 280 cards)
4870:http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/radeon-hd-4870,review-31046.html
4850:http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-4850,1957.html
bothhttp://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_4850_4870_performance/
physx on atihttp://www.tomshardware.co.uk/nvidia-ati-physx,news-28687.html

hope this helps

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Alucard94
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 20:48
Quote: "please do your research before you go shouting out brand names, and back up your statements
"

Guessing you're pro ati?
I couldn't care less about graphics cards at the moment as my computer isn't upgradable(except the ram) which pisses me off but meh, it works well.


Silvester
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 20:52
Quote: "please do your research before you go shouting out brand names, and back up your statements
"


Please do so too, as the ATI series never worked properly, So I doubt they will do so... they try too hard on making cheap cards, and alot of them... they should just make one good card for once.

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 20:57
I just don't want to buy an ATI card and start having problems. I've always had a Nvidia card because you see and hear about them a lot and plus, they are meant to be the best for games. But then, that puts ATI into the dark as a not very well known card.

I could always buy the 4870 and if it causes any problems, send it back to ebuyer.

I would like to go with ATI because they have the cheapest HD cards, while Nvidia are selling them at around £250.

Bizar Guy
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 21:06
I like having a graphics card, so I think I'll go with one of those.

kaedroho
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 21:10
Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 21:13
Quote: "ATI or Nvidia"

Yes, I would.

Chris K
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 22:17
Aren't Nvidia chips blowing up en masse at the moment? Swear I read it on Gizmodo...

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Anonymous User
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 22:20
I switched from ATI to Nvidea and then back to ATI again ready for the new 4870. It's ran like a dream and is way faster than my old 8800gt.

???
RalphY
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Posted: 12th Jul 2008 22:27 Edited at: 12th Jul 2008 22:42
The newest Nvidia cards are having problems yes, http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/07/09/nvidia-g84-g86-bad. Personally I have always gone Nvidia and will probably continue to as I have never been fond of the ATI drivers, though they have certainly improved over the last few years. ATI has caught up this generation speed wise I think, so who knows maybe I will go ATI some time in the future. So long as it works I don't care who makes it .

[Edit] OK, my bad the g84 and g86 is actually used in the 8 series cards, I assumed it was the new series that was having problems.

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Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 00:43
Historically I've been ATI loyal but I've switched to Nvidia because of compatibility and PhysX. I doubt that Nvidia cards are really that much better than ATI but Nvidia seems to be winning right now.

I know that ATI makes good affordable cards but I won't use an AMD either. I don't feel that the price difference between Intel and AMD is worth the benefit I get from the Intel processor but I'll pay it because I don't want to feel like I've cut any corners at all and now ATI has fallen into the same category as AMD.


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Haven Studios
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 02:54
Nvidia

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Mr Makealotofsmoke
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 04:38
nVidia. I had an ati card (X800) and it broke 2 times in 2 weeks.


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Raven
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 05:51
Quote: "Nvidia has more Compatible games, ATI has alot of games that will run retardedly slow, or just not run at all."


I recall people saying that 5years ago except swap the makes around. (With a little forum digging you can actually find this out for yourself too)

Personally I saw a change in the tides when AMD and ATi were merging and they released the Radeon X1K-Series.

Over the past 2years we've seen AMD's cards go from being brute force, to technically superior like NVIDIA used to be. NVIDIA also used to be reknown for having extremely stable drivers that would constantly improve performance.

The roles realistically speaking have completely reversed now.

ATIs Drivers on Vista are stable and run more titles correctly, and more importantly don't break games in bizare ways between builds.

The cards produce less heat, and require less power.

Oh and most importantly are CHEAPER. Not even by a small amount either.

I build a new system back in March specifically to run new titles, and it does that flawlessly and I only spent £350 on building it.

AMD Phenom 9500
ATI Radeon HD 3850 256MB
1GB Kingston Hyper-X 733MHz Memory
IBM/Hitachi 320GB SATA-2 HDD

alright so that cost doesn't include the monitor but then I'm quite happy sharing my HD television for it and the 360.
that rig runs Vista Ultimate, Gears of War, Crysis and Unreal Tournament 3 like a dream at 1280x720p with the graphics at max... well cept Crysis that's just on very high rather than extreme.

Still you can't really fault it especially given it cost about the same as a new PS3, which was the choice I had since mine was bricked with one of the updates.

I did have the choice of getting a new NVIDIA card for it but frankly, after the poor performance and stability of the XFX 8800GT I bought back in January; something I promptly sent back after a week and exchanged for a HD 2600 XT (which btw is on a dual-core system which again runs most current games at medium-high graphics at 60fps at 1280x1024 as long as I don't use Anti-Aliasing) which has served me quite well since.

To me ATI are quite frankly the sane choice. If only to understand how your card performs against the rest of the series.
They have a very clean-cut way of telling what is aimed at what market.

Family (Series), Market (User = 4, Gamer = 6, Extreme = 8), Performance-Rating (Low = 00, Medium = 50, High = 70)

I mean to me nothing could be easier than that outlay, but then maybe I'm just getting confused with NVIDIA since they dropped their basic way of doing things for the GT, GTO, GTS, GTX, GTXXX, Ultra, G0D71K3 ... and whatever else they can think of to make it more confusing. That's on-top of the what 4 different cards, which I suppose is a step forward from the 9 (no joke) of the 7-Series.

7100, 7150, 7200, 7300, 7500, 7600, 7800, 7900, 7950

maybe the 200-Series will change this for NVIDIA but as their actually released 2 cards of similar performance next to each other; I highly doubt it.

As for the newly added PhysX (which honestly I'm still more in favour of Havok) to NVIDIA cards via CUDA. Yeah honestly I don't care.

The 360 has no dedicated PPU or multiple GPU pipeline. In-fact it has a graphics card 2 generations behind my own. If it can handle The Force Unleashed without one... my PC doesn't need one either.

bitJericho
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 07:12
I'd have to disagree here. I own AMD stock, but I'm still going to disagree

Nvidia is still the top choice for any serious gamer. AMD might be making progress, but Nvidia still has the most stable drivers and the cards.

I'm concerned over the news about the new generation of nvidia cards, however, the enquirer has published outlandish claims in the past, and that article only referenced to other articles by the same dude, I won't put much weight on it. (I don't have time to look into it right now)

If you're going for super top end cards, you might want to research, but if you don't want to spend 400 bucks on a graphics card, and are just looking for something in the 8800 series or the low end 9800s, then you're best off with Nvidia.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/HD_4850/10.html

Take a look there, almost on par with an 8800 gt, and almost the same price, depending on make and model. But with Nvidia you get driver stability. Who here's saying Nvidia's less stable? I've owned an 8600gts and now an 8800gt and neither has crashed any games on me.

Ubuntu supports Nvidia better (currently, that could change quickly with open source drivers from AMD), and Nvidia's got the leg up on Physx so far. Nvidia's providing an all around better card.

Of course, that may change in the future, but who's going to buy a card now and wonder which forth coming card is going to be better?

In a year from now you may want to re-evaluate, right now I'm still sticking with Nvidia.


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Raven
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 12:08
Quote: "Nvidia is still the top choice for any serious gamer. "


And yet you then go on to say:

Quote: "Ubuntu supports Nvidia better"


Any "Serious" gamer would not care about *nix support. I know I couldn't care less. Also any serious Gamer would care about the cards stability on the Windows Vista platform given this is what allows DirectX10 where these cards are suppose to shine.

What is quite amusing to me is that the GeForce 8-Series is still the best choice for DirectX10 gaming, yet they are riddled with stability issues on the Vista platform; given NVIDIA are the card of choice for the majority of the gaming population it has led to people beliving that Vista is an unstable platform.

A fact that just isn't true.

Quote: "AMD might be making progress, but Nvidia still has the most stable drivers and the cards."


That is possibly the most untrue statment I've heard.
ATI X1K-Series and HD-Series have the most stable Vista Drivers currently available, period. I've yet to hear of anyone using these cards on Vista who have ever experienced Driver Restarts or games even older ones experiencing anything more than minor issues (for example Bink video in some older titles like Knights of the Old Republic) ... things that on GeForce cards happen on a very regular basis even with the latest drivers.

In-fact last week my brother got sick of this happening and is currently using my old X1800 XT over his more powerful 8800 GTX. The issues he faced would've made sense if he was using AMD for the rest of his system; but he has an NVIDIA 6-Series chipset and Intel Core 2 Duo processor. Yet my old Radeon is more stable than his GeForce. I feel there is a sense of irony there.

Quote: "Nvidia's got the leg up on Physx so far"


Name one title that has PhysX used where this is important. The only title so-far I've experienced any sort of performance dip simply from using a Radeon over a GeForce capable of using the new PhysX enhancement driver was Unreal Tournament 3 using special PhysX Map Pack.

Given as I've noticed on the Steam forums, people are still bitching that the game is too much for their cards; these are people running GeForce 8-Series cards who claim that if Team Fortress 2 can run just fine so why can't UT3 without turning graphics down.. Just to note both my HD 2600 XT and HD 3850 are capable of running UT3 with max settings at 1280x720 at reasonable framerates.

No graphical glitches, but more importantly NO FRAMERATE WAVERING.

In-fact what is interesting to me, is I've run my brothers 8800 GTX on this system with the lastest drivers (Forceware 8.8 I believe) and I found that it would seriously waver framerate-wise.

Both max settings at 1280x720:

8800 GTX 640MB: Min 18fps Max 82fps Adverage 45fps
HD 3850 256MB: Min 42fps Max 65fps Adverage 58fps

Alright while it was obvious during the benchmark it didn't match the raw-power of the 8800; something that rang true and not just in UT3 but a number of other games as well was that the adverage framerate was far more clear and didn't really change between test runs.

To me that is far more important than blistering framerates I can't tell the difference above 60fps especially as I always VSync to prevent tearing anyways. What is more important to me as a gamer is a steady framerate with the beauty turned on; especially in a multiplayer game like UT3.

Still in other games, Crysis, Alone in the Dark, Gears of War, Call of Duty 4, Supreme Commander; all just echo this.

NVIDIA cards right now are just the whole "look at what I can do" cards, and frankly they don't live up to the hype for actual gaming. What's more is NVIDIA actually have the balls to CHARGE you extra for those blagging rights of higher Framerates that are fleeting.

With every passing driver set, the tables are just rebalancing towards ATI performance wise as well. For example my 2600 XT over the past 12months started off barely being able to run Gears of War; but now it runs as smooth as a babies bottom with everything ramped up.

Morcilla
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 12:19
ATI forever
draknir_
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 12:48
The one and only time I bought an ATI card I regretted it for months afterwards. Since then Ive only bought nVidia and always been happy.
dark donkey
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 13:24 Edited at: 13th Jul 2008 13:25
I wouldent be worried about buying an ati card becouse it might go wrong. Ive had my comp puter for as long as i can rember it has an ATI card wich has never gone wrong or caused any problems while gaming.

Edit:
Quote: "because of some sort of code that disallows ATI to perform as well as a Nvidia card. Is this true or is it just fan boys putting ATI down?
"


That to me sounds like some crap. Why would they produce some code that made there cards go slower?.
sprite
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 14:53 Edited at: 13th Jul 2008 14:59
Personally I would get nvidia card if you have the money.

The problem at the monment is some of the cards have a problem with the power saving. If goes in to power save mode the fans turn idie state. Some cards fans don't turn back up when you ask alot from it.

Its not the chip set just a bad batch where someone forgot sometime (fan power switch me thinks). However all cards that have had the problem are easily sent back. You will not have to wait long to find out. The company have asked for the cards back but did not have the batch nums. So its a hope you don't get a bad one. Leadtek and Asus have not had any problems yet.

ATI cards on the other hand no hardware issues reported yet but a lot of game issues. Mainly a driver issue.

Just wait a few weeks before chossing a card.

1. All problems should be sorted.
2. The card wars will start equals more price cuts. Nvidia 280 dropped £100 week ago.
3. More money in the tin for hardware and beerware.

I'll add something later on.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 16:06
Personally I've had good experience with nVidia and ATI cards (though I've made my ATIs last longer), after I left 3Dfx on my first computer I have used nVidia and ATI interchangably. My second PC had a 4mb ATI, my 3rd had a 64mb GeForce 2, I upgraded to a 256mb ATI Radeon 9550 and now my current computer is running a GeForce 9500M.

My little ATI 4mb (can't remember the model) was neat, 4mb doesn't sound like much, but I manage to get more than double its power out of it, never overheating or causing me problems, though it struggled with Hitman. But it ran things like Shogun: Total War beautifully.

My GeForce 2 was already out of date when I got the computer, but it ran all of the games quite nicely and it managed to cope with Age of Empires 3, though without shaders of course (as it had no shader modules), I was getting behind on recommended hardware, so I upgraded to an ATI Radeon 9550, which ran everything I had at the time, but moving onto the current generation of gaming it became difficult for my PC to run them, but that wasn't my graphics card - so I never got to stretch it to its full potential (Shader module 2.0 getting replaced with 3.0 and games require 2.0ghz processors and 1gb ram, meant my computer couldn't handle anything)

Now I'm running a GeForce 9500M and everything has run everything the mid-range graphics card should, all of my old games look great, even Final Fantasy VIII, which on newer cards is meant to be glitchy, I've ran everything at maximum settings, (which out of the box my mid-range ATI didn't) only 2 games I have don't run at max settings are Crysis and Assassin's Creed, but they run Medium-high and still look great and play smoothly.

Hardware issues? It seems to be something people are mentioning, I've had 0 on any graphics card I've ever owned. Though...whatever happened to 3Dfx? Now those things were brilliant, sure mine was a measly 1mb, but it gave out awesome results.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Chenak
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 16:09
I did have lots of problems with ATI in the past but with the new 9 and 200 series of the Geforce being expensive and not much better than the 8000 series I'm thinking I may give ATI another chance.

Been looking at this card:
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/146415

Looks fantastic and it apparently out performs a 9800gtx and nearly out performs a 260
david w
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 18:10
I have always had good experience with ATI. My first real GFX card was a ATI Rage Fury 32mb and that sucker still works perfectly to this day. I used that card for years and never had a single issue. My upgrade from that card was a ATI 9800pro 256mb and that sucker never once missed a beat. (I did have a 9800 that I had to return for repair but once I got it back it worked flawlessly) And I've had a ATI 1900 and a 1950 and they both worked flawlessly. Also Ive had an Nvidia 7950 and that sucker also worked flawlessly. My laptop has an integrated nvidia chip and that sucker also works as well as expected.

I guess the bottom line is really buying from either company seems to be to be about the same. If price is a factor then go with ATI, else you can just read reviews all day and opinions and still you have to make the choice and still get a good deal.....really if you buy anything "new" your going to be getting a solid card.
Roxas
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 18:34
Ive never had any proplems with ati

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SpyDaniel
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 19:38
Chenak, thats the same card I was looking at. I showed one of my friends from Italy and he said ATI run slower because of some code :S

Keo C
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 20:33
Quote: "I have always had good experience with ATI. My first real GFX card was a ATI Rage Fury 32mb and that sucker still works perfectly to this day. I used that card for years and never had a single issue. My upgrade from that card was a ATI 9800pro 256mb and that sucker never once missed a beat. (I did have a 9800 that I had to return for repair but once I got it back it worked flawlessly) And I've had a ATI 1900 and a 1950 and they both worked flawlessly. Also Ive had an Nvidia 7950 and that sucker also worked flawlessly. My laptop has an integrated nvidia chip and that sucker also works as well as expected."

Are you saying that all your cards suck?


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Chenak
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 20:48
Quote: "Chenak, thats the same card I was looking at. I showed one of my friends from Italy and he said ATI run slower because of some code :S"


Benchmarks and tests from overclockers shows that in a quite a few games the card rivals the geforce 280 sometimes beating it marginly where it has managed to keep a stable and usable framerate across many resolutions. Not bad for the price I'd say. I don't know about this "code" that slows down the card.

The only problems I've had with the ati cards is that the stock coolers are most of the time complete rubbish. However I'm getting one of those coolmaster scosmos tower cases which should literally freeze the problems hopefully
david w
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Posted: 13th Jul 2008 20:52
@keo c LOL nice
Raven
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Posted: 14th Jul 2008 17:35
Quote: "The only problems I've had with the ati cards is that the stock coolers are most of the time complete rubbish. However I'm getting one of those coolmaster scosmos tower cases which should literally freeze the problems hopefully"


Might be that I've only ever bought ATI or Sapphire brands, but can't say the stock heatsink and fan have ever been poor in my experiencing.

Currently I have a Sapphire Radeon HD 3850 256MB running inside an Antec Cube (yeah that's right GeForce lovers, I have a fairly top-end card running on a 300w PSU in a confined space... try and pull that off without problems ) and it always keeps at roughly 50-60C

Alright not the best, but is stable enough. This said I can't over-clock it without getting a better power supply and increasing the cooling. Then again over-clocking is only a marginal advantage and I've yet to run a game I even need that for just yet.

Do have another system that's a true beasty, my brother keeps asking my why I don't use it often; simple fact is currently I'm paying close to £120/month electricity with basically only my cube and xbox 360 as the primary power users (being on most of the day given I work days and my brother works nights)

If I were to do that with my 2x 750watt beat... damn I don't even wanna know how much Southern Electric would rape me for. That last 15% raise a few month back was a pain bet it'll go up again soon.

MSon
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Posted: 14th Jul 2008 18:52 Edited at: 14th Jul 2008 18:54
Quote: "ATI or Nvidia"

Nvidia

But then again I rairley upgrade my graphics card, Currentley on a 1GB Nvidia Card and only because it cost me nothing, Althought the warnings they can come with nower days seem a bit stupid, my card recommends a minimum 600w PSU, as far as im aware an ATI is the kind of graphics you get when its built into a MotherBoard, (useful for most systems), and Nvidia is for when you upgrade.

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Alucard94
17
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 19:30
Quote: "Currentley on a 1GB Nvidia Card and only because it cost me nothing"

... I hate you, no really, I hate you.


Haven Studios
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Location: My Empire of a Utopia
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 19:43
@ Raven man you write a lot! No offense, but Nvidia is better right now

@ MSon well look again

@ Alucard94 *takes MSons card*

but seriously dude the 1GB card is incredibly powerful

Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings.
MSon
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Location: Earth, (I Think).
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 19:50 Edited at: 14th Jul 2008 19:57
When i install a game now, the first thing i do is go into the settings and turn everythink on max, With a Resolution of 1280x1024, and its not had any problems with any games, The only thing my PC runs slow with now is when running a PS2 Emulator to play PS2 CD's in my PC, My old card was a about 128mb ATI one so I have nothink against ATI's, mainley because they tend to be cheaper, and therefore more affordable for people.

PS: I won my current card purley because my name was pulled out of a hat ... literley ... Best prize i've ever won

Everyone Be Cool, You, Be Cool.
bitJericho
22
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Location: United States
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 19:51
Heh, the Sapphire Radeon HD 3850 needs 30 amps of power Whereas the 8800gts requires only 24-26ish. So us Nvidia owners win that argument


Hurray for teh logd!
SpyDaniel
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 20:43
Google Ad seems to think ATI is best, he's trying to flog one right now

RalphY
20
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Location: 404 (UK)
Posted: 14th Jul 2008 22:21
Heh, it's changed to a Nvidia card now for me .

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mm0zct
21
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Location: scotland-uk
Posted: 15th Jul 2008 05:53
Quote: "as far as im aware an ATI is the kind of graphics you get when its built into a MotherBoard, (useful for most systems), and Nvidia is for when you upgrade."


'fraid personally it's an nvidia chip that's onboard with my last mobo

i didn't mean to sound like an arrogant ati fanboy, if you'd asked at the period where it was the 8800 vs the hd2900 i would have probably given an opinion in nvidia's favour if we were talking the performance crown holder.

as far as drivers go i've had more problems with nvidia's drivers than i have with ati (i have cards of various fairly recent generations from both companies) but lets pretend for nvidia's sake that drivers aren't an issue.

Both manufacturers have their victories and defeats in game framerate head to heads, but if you average out the framerates you're looking for a price/performance balance, not the utmost fastest card. and this is where personally i believe ati is getting it right. it might not have a flagship uber chip (although the 4870X2 is on it's way for just that purpose) it does put a massively powerful gpu into the MIDRANGE(and upper mid) market area, where most of us will be looking to buy, undercutting nvidia in the price/performance ratio.

in terms of "status" i don't see why nvidia and ati shouldn't be considered equals without considering the specific product in question, in it's place in the market.

this shouldn't be a brand war, it should be a chip war, product by product, not generalising a brand. then we would finally get an objective discussion over why x is better than y

(and when it comes to cpu's amd might not be able to compete against intel's quad core chips at the performance level, but amd's chips do line up pretty much on (if not under) the intel price/performance curve, but that's another argument entirely so lets leave cpu's out of this)

linux note: cutting edge ati hardware doesn't like linux yet, but i'm not sure how much it likes the nvidia 280 either lol
older models i've had better experience overall from nvidia but i'd hardly call it perfectly stable and there seem to be a few bugs still in there but i'm probably out of date.

AMD AthlonX2 5000 black edition @2.8ghz, 2gb pc5400, AMD/ATi hd3850, creative xfi music, 24" hp widescreen 1920x1200, ECS KA3 MVP mobo

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