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Geek Culture / Leadwerks Engine 2.1 and Sandbox Features Overview

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Leadwerks
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 04:17
I made a video talking about some of the features in Leadwerks Engine 2.1 and our new editor Leadwerks Sandbox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmN7OLy6yUY
Chenak
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 04:50
That looks beautiful
Sunflash
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 06:49
Does the Leadwerks engine have any sort of scripting language?

Mountain Dew, happiness in a bottle.
Gil Galvanti
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 08:22
Wow, very impressive . How much will it cost? And what are it's terms of use?


Leadwerks
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 08:36 Edited at: 16th Jul 2008 08:37
Free upgrade. Just buy version 2.0 now and you will get 2.0 plus the beta of 2.1 and Sandbox.

Leadwerks Engine has its own scripting language, or you can use C++ or another language.
Sunflash
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 10:24
w00t! I was actually hoping for C++ support, this is a must buy!

Mountain Dew, happiness in a bottle.
ionstream
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 11:05
Why are people better at making stuff than me .

Awesome stuff man!

Anonymous User
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 11:24
Sweet jesus, I would seriously put your engine on par with the Unreal 3 engine. Looks like I'm saving up my pennies to buy it. what graphics card did you use for the demo anyway. I'm thinking of buying an ATI 4870, would it be compatible with the engine?

???
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 11:58
Looks great, will there be any demos released? (last I checked there weren't any) It'd be interesting to see how it works first.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Tom J
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 12:44 Edited at: 17th Jul 2008 13:54
Looks great

Quote: "Free upgrade. Just buy version 2.0 now and you will get 2.0 plus the beta of 2.1 and Sandbox."


Thats funny, I could have sworn I saw someone say the sandbox had to be bought separately...

Leadwerks
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Posted: 16th Jul 2008 19:14
I recommend a GE Force 8800 GTS.
Inspire
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 01:18
Looks amazing.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 02:26 Edited at: 17th Jul 2008 02:33
Looking great doesn't make up for any lack in stability or optimization. "Leadwerks" (You're Josh, correct?) from what I've been able to collect you were able to pull this engine together within one or two years worth of time, while that is great, that does bring together the idea that it is highly unoptimized, and unstable. Of course the same thing could be said for DBP, I don't quite support either engine. Your engine uses OpenGL, I see, however OpenGL is quite slow on the newer cards. While display lists and vertex arrays, and by extension a notion of vertex buffers, help OpenGL's speed problems I can't help but imagine that any true support on Windows would have to be that of third party drivers in the future. Leadwerks currently only supports Windows, so why not use Direct3D which is obviously a better choice for a Windows-only 3D engine? Microsoft has not been keeping OpenGL up to par, and OpenGL has serious speed problems under Windows, while Direct3D obviously doesn't. That's not to say OpenGL is bad, OpenGL is fast under operating systems with true support for it, with the exception of graphics cards which support Direct3D over it.

I'm curious as to why you've built Leadwerks this way. It is not my intent to offend you, nor put down your engine in any way, I'm merely trying to query answers to questions you are likely asked all the time.


Here are some reviews:
hanglide, Feb 17th 2008
Quote: "This is really more of a graphics a engine at this point. The specs listed above are WAY off base. The author of the engine has been aware of the vast discrepancy between the specs posted here and what the engine actually does for ~6months. Your guess is as good as mine as to why he chose not to post a disclaimer here.

I used "average" for all the ratings as my intent was not necessarily to rate it but rather to correct the misinformation posted above.

Here are the specs directly from the leadwerks site.

Rendering
BSP geometry (brushes).
Static meshes.
Alpha-blended heightmap terrain.
Hardware-accelerated animated models.

Brushes
Automated texture mapping with adjustable parameters for offset, scale, and rotation.
BSP acceleration for raycasting and collision an order of magnitude faster than linear methods.

Meshes
Fast batch rendering can handle many instances of high-polygon geometry.
Convert .x, .3ds, or .b3d meshes to Leadwerks .mesh format.

Terrain
Alpha-blended texture layers.
Arbitrary subdivision and detail levels (LOD).
Automatic edge turning to smooth out slopes.

Lighting
Lightmaps on bsp geometry and terrain.
Vertex colors on static meshes.
Dynamic shader-based lighting on moving objects.
Projected shadows.
Built-in lightmapper.

Physics
Physics system based on Newton Game Dynamics.
Support for interactive objects (rigid bodies).
Hardware-accelerated physics on compatible graphics cards.

Textures
Load .png, .jpg, .bmp, .pcx, .dds, or .vtf textures.
Material settings for blend mode, transparency, z-sorting, collision, occlusion, etc.
Optional shader program per material.

Shaders
Support for pixel and fragment GLSL shader programs.
Normal maps with specular reflection on all lighting types.
Support for reflective and refractive materials.
Water shader.

Effects
Particle system with control over speed, acceleration, particle size, etc.
Projectors cast an image for light and shadow effects.

Sound
Sound system based on OpenAL.
Sound management prevents too many simultaneous instances of the same sound playing.
Support for EAX on compatible hardware.

Editor
Load 3D World Studio files directly.
Set up interactive worlds using entities without editing source code.

Programming
Write and compile a script program with no external programming language.
DLL for use with any programming language."


nihonlv, Jul 3rd 2008
Quote: "*** NOTICE ***
The features listed above are NOT accurate. There is NO networking at all. There is no AI. Additionally many of those other features are not available.

I would first like to say that the rendering engine in Leadwerks looks great. Unfortunately that doesn't make up for the fact that is about all it is. It does include physics, which are quite advanced. One problem that hasn't been fixed is the player controller. It remains broken.

The author of the engine is against the industry standard formats (Collada, FBX, etc.) and chooses to use his own format which no one supports.

So while the game engine looks okay. The pipeline is lacking, which is why I gave the ease of use an average rating."


From here.

It should be noted that there are also several good reviews.


Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Jeku
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 03:52
@Aaron - The first review you pulled off is from February, before Leadwerks 2.0 was even released. It is most likely a review of the first version of the engine.

Quote: "There is NO networking at all. There is no AI. Additionally many of those other features are not available."


For one thing this is more a 3D engine than a "game" engine, if I am correct. A 3D engine shouldn't have AI and networking code built-in. The physics engine put in Leadwerks 2.0 is something of a bonus in my mind.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 03:58
Any recent reviews availible? I'm on the verge of purchasing it myself, I kind of wary before paying £76 on a product I've not even tried yet.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Rampage
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 05:10
This looks very awesome man. Once I get my new computer I will buy for sure. (and some money) XD.

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Xarshi
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 08:03
@Jeku - I think he may have said that because it is called Leadwerks Game Engine 2.0. As on the TGC website.

I believe falling asleep at keyboard is now a religion for me.
Leadwerks
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 21:27 Edited at: 17th Jul 2008 21:29
Pretty much everything you said about OpenGL is completely false. We don't even use vertex arrays or display lists, as that technology has been obsolete for at least five years. All OpenGL drivers are third party. It doesn't matter what Microsoft does because the drivers are made by NVidia or ATI, whom we actually work closely with to ensure good performance and reliability. There is no difference in the speed between DX10 and OpenGL 2.1, although DX9 suffers from prohibitive overhead for each draw call.

The info on DevMaster.net is obsolete. Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't even the person that submitted the original info, so a lot of it is wrong. I submitted new information to them and I expect that to appear in a couple days.
David R
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Posted: 17th Jul 2008 21:46
Quote: "Microsoft has not been keeping OpenGL up to par, and OpenGL has serious speed problems under Windows, while Direct3D obviously doesn't"


This is obviously incorrect, otherwise id wouldn't be continuing to use GL in their upcoming engines/games (id Tech 5 is making using of GL3)


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Jul 2008 03:17
@Leadwerks
Sorry, I was mistaken. I will have to bring my information up to date, thank you for correcting me.

As for DX9 (I believe you mean D3D9), I agree. Compared to Direct3D 10 their Draw and DrawIndexed functions are a bit slow, however they are still fast compared to the inexperienced OpenGL user's drawing methods of glBegin, glVertex3f, etc.

In either event, you did not explain how your engine could be so optimized in so little time. I won't ask for a list of optimizations, rather ask how much time you've spent optimizing the engine, versus adding features? And in comparison, how much time have you spent improving the engine's stability? If you do answer, I'd recommend giving times in terms of percent of development time. You see, it is important to know exactly how much work has gone into an engine.

Please understand, I am not trying to put down your engine in any way. I respect anyone who can actually work with real graphics APIs and not just a basic language.

@Jeku
I saw "Game Engine" not "Graphics Engine." And in either event, it was a list of features, and quotes, not from my self. I'm aware of the dates I posted, and felt "iffy" of the February date, however it was in 2008, and it was only a few months ago. It felt relevant.


Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Leadwerks
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Posted: 18th Jul 2008 04:19 Edited at: 18th Jul 2008 04:20
You are talking about immediate mode drawing, which is the slowest way you can do anything. OpenGL 3 is doing away with everything but vertex buffers, which is what I use.

I have spent the last 2 years obsessing over performance and design. I think version 2.1 is when it really all comes together in a way that is final. You could make S.T.A.L.K.E.R. with version 2.1, and I say that without exaggeration.

The shader-based deferred lighting actually simplifies the engine design quite a lot, and helped us to overcome some of the excessive complexity in earlier versions, which leads to a more stable and simpler engine. The main engine source is less than hald the size of the version 1.x engine source.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Jul 2008 00:11
A long time ago, I believe a demo was released that let programmers actually use the engine for some amount of time or with a water mark, not sure which. Is there/will there be a demo for Leadwerks 2.x? I didn't notice any at the TGC site, or any at the main Leadwerks site.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Leadwerks
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Posted: 13th Aug 2008 21:38
There will be an evaluation kit along with version 2.1.
Rampage
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 07:47
Dude...Got programming skills? Lol

[url=][/url][href]http://www.rampagemod.webs.com[\href]
Mahoney
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 07:49
Quote: "Dude...Got programming skills? Lol
"


Enough for all of us.

Windows Vista Home Premium Intel Pentium Dual-Core 1.6 Ghz 1GB DDR2 RAM GeForce 8600GT Twin Turbo
bergice
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 19:17 Edited at: 15th Aug 2008 22:40
2:45

That is crazy.

How can it be "No problem at all"

Really nice tough

Xsnip3rX
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 20:53
Quote: "In either event, you did not explain how your engine could be so optimized in so little time. I won't ask for a list of optimizations, rather ask how much time you've spent optimizing the engine, versus adding features? And in comparison, how much time have you spent improving the engine's stability? If you do answer, I'd recommend giving times in terms of percent of development time. You see, it is important to know exactly how much work has gone into an engine.

Please understand, I am not trying to put down your engine in any way. I respect anyone who can actually work with real graphics APIs and not just a basic language. "

Why don't you just say you're better than all of us that do use the BASIC Language?, and why are you trying to bring this guy down? which you actually are trying to do, by the way, he's created and engine worthy of at least a few hundred dollar investments, meanwhile, how many other people do you know can do that?

bergice
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 22:41
Quote: "Why don't you just say you're better than all of us that do use the BASIC Language?, and why are you trying to bring this guy down? which you actually are trying to do, by the way, he's created and engine worthy of at least a few hundred dollar investments, meanwhile, how many other people do you know can do that?"


!!!! K.O !!!!


I think this engine must be worth its money, it looks stunning.

Diggsey
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 23:38
@Xsnip3rX
Kind-of harsh... He didn't say that he didn't respect people who work with a basic language, he said he respects people who don't, and still make a great engine. You can respect more than one 'group' of people. And how is saying that you respect someone 'bringing them down'???

The engine looks very good, is there a team working on this, or just you?

[b]Yuor signutare was aresed by a deslyxic mud...
BOX2D V2 HAS HELP FILES! AND A WIKI!
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 16th Aug 2008 01:25
@Xsnip3rX
I know a few that can. One I'm quite good friends with. I'll admit the tone of my message was for bringing down, but it was also respectful as to show a form of criticism. If it's not as good of an engine as he claims it to be or it has a ton of bugs then isn't that something you would like to know? I for one would. If he's planning to market the engine I don't see why he can't reassure people by answering, clearly, a post like mine.

I never claimed to be better than anyone else here.

@bergice
Looks aren't everything.

@Leadwerks
I'm not trying to degrade anything you post, just get answers.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Xsnip3rX
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Posted: 16th Aug 2008 06:14
Ok, i understand that, it just seemed like you were judging him a bit, and kinda coming down on him with a million different questions that'd easily offend someone if they put alot of hard work into something just to see it questioned. :p

Leadwerks
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 04:25 Edited at: 19th Aug 2008 04:26
Version 2.1 is almost ready. The trees are placeholders because my artist hasn't finished the vegetation.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 04:36
Can we see a close up on the island? It looks cool.

Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 05:01
This looks absolutely GREAT Josh! Congrats!


a.k.a WOLF!
Rampage
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 08:55
Wow...

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Alucard94
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 20:50
Agreed with Rampage, damn you though, I can't get my jaw of the floor


Zotoaster
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Posted: 19th Aug 2008 21:43
I am going to laugh at your futile attempts to make a game engine, but that's only to stop me crying because it totally pwns all the stuff I've ever made, ever

There go my plans for world domination.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
Bad Monkey
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Posted: 20th Aug 2008 09:20 Edited at: 20th Aug 2008 09:21
Quote: "You could make S.T.A.L.K.E.R. with version 2.1, and I say that without exaggeration."


So you have enough commands in your scripting language to make that claim? That is a really nice and complex game and it seems that $150 usd is cheap for an engine that can make that game.

Your engine looks really nice and I like the deffered shaders that you have. Deffered shading also optimizes the speed and size of a program in dbpro a lot too.

I would really like to play with a trial version of this software first before buying, because I would like to play around with your scripting language. I would like to put your claim to the test.


Visit my website:
http://www.artistsareus.com
Leadwerks
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 08:14
We haven't finished the normal maps, so it still looks kind of dull and flat:
Alucard94
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 08:51
CRAP! That's awesome!


CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 16:51
Why's it so blurry? Like it's stretched.......

It hurts my eyes.....

The one before, the picture of the island, I could've sworn that the water was moving on the webpage, I swear, this engine has awesome graphics, but how good is it gameplay wise?

Deathead
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 17:08
@Coffeegrunt: Its motion blur. Most likely on a running animation.
But it looks like a smaller island version of crysis. I may indeed purchase this.


CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 17:18
Ahh....Is it possible to tone down the motion blur a bit, I dunno about you guys, but my eyes don't do that when I run.....

Alucard94
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 19:20
Quote: "Ahh....Is it possible to tone down the motion blur a bit, I dunno about you guys, but my eyes don't do that when I run.....
"

It does do that a little bit though I believe, you just don't notice it as much.


Cyborg ART
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 20:36
It looks totaly awesome.
How beginner friendly is this engine? And will there be a demo someday?


BUMP = Bring Up My Post
Aertic
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2008 22:22
what graphics card do you have to get 44 fps??? and is that with AA on? :S i`m scared...


No doubt'fully the simon cowell of the fpsc section :S
Deathead
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 00:12
What is it with the forums and errors now.lol But Tatters I do believe that it can run over 300,000 triangles and not be laggy.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 01:14
Quote: "what graphics card do you have to get 44 fps??? and is that with AA on? :S i`m scared..."


From what I understand Leadwerk's is fairly optimised - but you do need a recent graphics card, the archipelego demo ran smooth for me on my mid-range card (GeForce 9500M) but if 'AA' is on, I can imagine you'd get quite big slow downs from your potential rate - or at least with anything within the current generation of graphics I've found.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Leadwerks
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 05:37
That's a GEForce 8800. Keep in mind it is rendering 500,000 polys.
Aertic
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 13:22
Thats preety good that


No doubt'fully the simon cowell of the fpsc section :S

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