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Geek Culture / Leadwerks Engine 2.1 and Sandbox Features Overview

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 18:49
I've got an ATI Radeon X1300.......

Let me guess, I've got no chance of running this at any good framerate, have I?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Aug 2008 19:55
Just don't make scenes of 500,000 polygons and use LOD meshes for far away objects. 500,000 is extensive for any most normal scenes (it seems really these foilage bombarded scenes that picks up the polygon counts, which can be optimised, like they do for Oblivion - they used LOD trees for longer distances and only renders grass for a certain distance)

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
General Reed
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 14:48
I have to say, this engine is in my eyes the same as the cryengine 2, which is freekin awesome! and its only 150.00 for a licsnece. Once the competition is over, im getting a liscene!

CPU: AMD X2 6000+ 3.0ghz GFX: NVIDIA BFG Geforce 8800GTS 640MB OC-550mhz core RAM: 2048mb

Deathead
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 16:48
@Leadwerks: On the screenshot of the overall island is that Volumetric coulds I see?


Aaron Miller
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 03:51
@General Reed
I believe you mean "license."

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 04:22
can you actually make...games? with leadworks 2.0?
from what i've seen it looks liek you can make like maps and thats it.
can you make like shooters?

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
Leadwerks
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 07:22
Of course. It's not FPSC, so there is still some skill and learning involved, but yes, you can make a AAA game. We're thinking about producing one of our own with the engine. I just don't know what to make yet.
Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 09:20
Oh thanks for answering me without yelling, cuz that was a simple question, i was kinda afraid of getting yelled at
Thanks

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 13:37
Quote: "Oh thanks for answering me without yelling, cuz that was a simple question, i was kinda afraid of getting yelled at
Thanks"


How is it possible to yell on a forum, we're typing?

@Leadwerks

Why not make a generic sci-fi FPS, you don't need that good a story, as the demo would only really be to showcase the visuals and possible gameplay aspects.....

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 13:42
Quote: "How is it possible to yell on a forum, we're typing?"


DOES THIS HELP!!!!!!???



From what I understand, the Leadwerks Engine is really a graphics/control/physics engine with a map editor - so it makes life easier and you can achieve great results as they're shown us - but you still have to program the game itself, am I right? So if you wanted to make a FPS game, then you'd need to code it.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Leadwerks
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 22:49 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 22:49
It's nearly ready. Rich DiGiovanni made some nice foliage.
Mahoney
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 22:51
That looks so awesome. . .

Windows Vista Home Premium Intel Pentium Dual-Core 1.6 Ghz 1GB DDR2 RAM GeForce 8600GT Twin Turbo
WildCat
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 22:54 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 22:56
Is there a trial or anything I can download?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 23:07 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 23:07
Quote: "Is there a trial or anything I can download?
"


I believe he said there will be a evalutation version coming out when 2.1 does.

Looking good as ever Josh.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Rampage
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 05:50
Dude this is so awesome, will this run good on a 9600m GT? Because I'm pretty sure that's what I am getting its just like the 9600 but for laptops...

[url=][/url][href]http://www.rampagemod.webs.com[\href]
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 12:57
Run the Archipelego demo, just do a forum search of 'leadwerks' and you'll find it. Though I imagine it would work - I ran the archipelego demo fine on my GeForce 9500M and the archipelego demo was made with 2.0 and 2.1 is suppose to have a performance boost from deferred shading.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 07:33
Quote: "
From what I understand, the Leadwerks Engine is really a graphics/control/physics engine with a map editor - so it makes life easier and you can achieve great results as they're shown us - but you still have to program the game itself, am I right? So if you wanted to make a FPS game, then you'd need to code it."

So your saying it really wasnt meant for creating fps games, so you have to be like extremely good at coding to make one?

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
Leadwerks
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 19:57
No it means that you can produce AAA results, but there is no MakeGame() command.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 20:23 Edited at: 29th Aug 2008 20:25
Quote: "So your saying it really wasnt meant for creating fps games, so you have to be like extremely good at coding to make one?"


Think of it as DBP, but in C++/BlitzMax/Any programming language that can handle it, with a built in physics engine and comes with a level editor (and a scripting engine, am I right?). It doesn't come with a sound engine I believe, but you can download IrrKlang or use OpenAL to do that.

So you don't need to be extremely good at coding, but you need to have coding knowledge - though I don't own the product myself, but the Archipelego demo demonstrates some of the coding involved and it says to me, it's a fairly easy code to follow (I'm not a 'great' coder myself) - but look at the Video tutorials on the leadwerks forum, it should demonstrate what Leadwerks is and how it works. (That's one thing that's convincing me to buy the engine - when I have less important things to spend my money on)

So you can create just about any game you want in there - but it's not going to make the game for you.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Frankie Pawnage5
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 20:40
right. gotcha.
Thanks Seppuku!

dude if you really want a turkey sandwich, then make one, and make ham.sdaF?
Leadwerks
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Posted: 29th Aug 2008 20:47
Yeah, DBP is probably a good comparison in terms of difficulty.
Rampage
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Posted: 1st Sep 2008 10:02
We want updates!
Could you give an example of the above pic with more lighting? Bloom or something? To give a more tropical island feel? That's what I am going for...

[url=][/url][href]http://www.rampagemod.webs.com[\href]
Leadwerks
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 04:34
Ultra-high quality settings. Bear in mind it is rendering 1.6 million polys.
AaronG
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 05:26
Wow looks great! Something is off about the motion blur, it makes me have a headache.


Rampage
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 10:49
Looks really good but the gun on the left somehow annoys me alot lol.
Your really good at this stuff lol

[url=][/url][href]http://www.rampagemod.webs.com[\href]
Little Bill
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 11:25
Wow! A games engine that allows for VB! Maybe I'll be able to put that knowledge to use! Or maybe I'll learn that scripting language of your...

Anyway, this is lookin' great! Well done.


Win XP - 2GB RAM - NVIDIA GeForce 7300LE
dark coder
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 11:39 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2008 11:43
It looks very nice, the distant island pic on the first page inspired me to improve my visuals on my PhysX entry :p. One thing that's bugged me with that pic is the sand though, I've been looking at many reference pics( like this ) of small and private islands but never see sand that looks anything like this. The sand leading from the water looks great but it quickly turns brown then to green, all I see is all white-ish sand then suddenly a wall of trees.

In your previous 2 pics the foliage textures look nice, but they still look very flat(the bushes), they still lack normal maps I assume. And in your 2nd to last pic especially, the bloom looks rather overblown for the dimness of the scene, especially when the light is casting from the far left. I don't think the grass on the last pic looks very good on the rocks like that, it almost looks a bit too rich and high for something that would grow on rock, I could be a bit off but it looks a bit strange. Also the rock there from such close up looks fairly low-res, especially for ultra-high, you may want to put some higher frequency noise to improve the look and maybe add some rocks/pebbles onto it, to make it look less like a plain grid terrain with an elevation map.

It's a very nice start though, I wouldn't say it's really close to Crysis yet, as their engine is rather advanced to say the least, and they have 80k shaders! Oh and that gun should be on the right, left-handed guns in FPS games just isn't done .

Are there plans for a new demo? I'd love to see what's been improved as I love graphics, anyway here's a pic of Crysis that I really love, the water and background terrain is just so awesome, hopefully you can recreate this pic one day!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 13:40
Quote: "Oh and that gun should be on the right, left-handed guns in FPS games just isn't done"


All I can say to that is boooooo! I think he'd doing something revolutionary by thinking about us lefties - left handed people can be heroes too!

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Alucard94
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 15:24
Umm, I can use both left and right perfectly fine, so I get to dual wield that rifle right?


Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 17:20 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2008 17:21
I find it extremely humorous that people are making comments and judgements on the quality of the textures and the motion blur of an example game. This is an engine, and you will be relying on your own settings and art assets.

Yes this is a demo and the author would be best to make the best kick-butt example he can (i.e. Gears of War was basically a demo for the Unreal 3 engine), but just remember when you purchase this awesome engine you will be using all your own media and have to program your own visual settings.


dark coder
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 17:29
Quote: "I find it extremely humorous that people are making comments and judgements on the quality of the textures and the motion blur of an example game."


If he didn't want comments on the graphics he'd be listing engine features and methods of implementation only, not screenshots and updating us on how his island looks, so no I don't think anyone here is being funny.

Benjamin
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 17:31
Quote: "I find it extremely humorous that people are making comments and judgements on the quality of the textures and the motion blur of an example game."

You're completely right, I'm sure he doesn't want any criticism at all on the screenshots he is posting.

Though I personally think the screenshots are awesome, good job.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 17:49
The screenshots show the capability of the engine and sandbox editor - okay, I think it's fairly obvious that you'd need to program the game and use your own media, but from what I understand these shaders will be included and you'd be able to use them and you wouldn't need to sit around coding normal map shaders, bloom, reflection, refraction etc. this is all availible judging from what I've observed.

We've already established from people's questions that this engine doesn't not make the game for you and well you might need to use your own media for the game to be yours.

And of course can we not complement great results? Or criticise them? After all why else would he be showing us these screenshots?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Jeku
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 23:20 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2008 23:22
Quote: "If he didn't want comments on the graphics he'd be listing engine features and methods of implementation only, not screenshots and updating us on how his island looks, so no I don't think anyone here is being funny."


Have you ever seen a game engine that *didn't* have screenshots? Please. The screenshots are not selling a game, but a game engine. The quality of the textures, models, and graphics settings are dependent on the art assets provided by the artist. I'm assuming Leadwerks is not as large as Epic Games and can't afford a team of 30 artists to make a competitive tech demo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have browsed dozens of game engines in the past and they all show screenshots of various quality, but they haven't affected me either way.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2008 23:40 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2008 23:40
What I look for in the screenshots is how well rendered they are and what effects that comes with the engine are applied - the water and terrain are features to do with their sandbox editor which I think are a selling point, as well as the shaders that come along with it.

Nice looking sky boxes, plants and a character with a gun, of course aren't selling points - for textures it's not hard to get a hold of ones like that (take a photo, or look for a site that gives them away from free, and use a method to make them seamless) as for the models - palm trees and undergrowth like that aren't that difficult to do and nor are the sky boxes.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 08:15
Quote: "Have you ever seen a game engine that *didn't* have screenshots? Please. The screenshots are not selling a game, but a game engine. The quality of the textures, models, and graphics settings are dependent on the art assets provided by the artist. I'm assuming Leadwerks is not as large as Epic Games and can't afford a team of 30 artists to make a competitive tech demo. Correct me if I'm wrong."


What's your point? I'm not allowed to give him C&C about his islands graphics? Well if you're only happy with people sucking up and saying how it looks like Crysis then be my guest, I just happen to enjoy graphics in games and would like to see this engine be successful, and one important factor in being popular are impressive screenshots and/or demos, as you've basically just stated. The improvements I've listed are easy additions and would easily make the scene look better, thus would potentially attract more people if the showcase screenshots looked closer to those AAA engines, you would have me abstain from making these comments because potentially the coder could do these themselves? I'm sure they could, but it's far more impressive if these things come out of the box, especially when it comes with a sandbox editor like this where you can raise the terrain heights and it automatically adds rock textures and I assume it can populate the terrain with foliage. Maybe it doesn't yet support the population of rocks? If he added this then that's a lot of time saved and it would look better, right?

Quote: "What I look for in the screenshots is how well rendered they are and what effects that comes with the engine are applied"


Agreed, many of these big engines are developed along with a major game title, Half-Life 2 and Crysis just to name a few, without these they'd only have a few tech demos which wouldn't be as impressive, thus less people would be interested in them. But when they see Crysis or Half-Life 2(both of which look great and show the features very well), then people become far more interested, is this not basically the same thing? Especially when Josh talks about making his own game using this engine, thus I see no problem with making comments about the graphics.

Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 18:23
Quote: " Well if you're only happy with people sucking up and saying how it looks like Crysis then be my guest"


There's no point in discussing this with you, so just lay off. I didn't say "suck up". Yes I realize people tend to jump down my throat for saying something contrary to their beliefs, but I'm just telling people from my *own* experiences, you can't judge an engine based on screenshots from a demo application.

Leadwerks is not an "Epic Games" or an "id Software" which can afford to spend $30 million on a game to show off its engine. Commenting on texture quality on a sample program for a fully functional game engine serves little purpose. If your goal is simply to help the creator grab more eyeballs, then so be it. But it's a demo for an engine, not a drag and drop level editor, so it shouldn't detract anyone from deciding whether to make the purchase.


dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 18:59
Quote: "I didn't say "suck up""


And I never stated or implied you did, it's just from what I recall everyone else's posts pretty much were, then I say something that isn't this and give some C&C, then low and behold you slam what I say.

Quote: "you can't judge an engine based on screenshots from a demo application."


Sure you can, if I see a game engine that has showcase games/tech demos and screenshots that look like crap then I'm not interested, if the devs can't be bothered to make sample applications showing off how to implement things using their API then why should I spend money and time seeing if this is possible? For all we know the Leadwerks engine is more advanced than the Source engine, maybe it runs faster, has better hardware scalability and multi platform support, but until there are demos showing this no one's going to care. I highly doubt any prospective game developer will buy/try all possible game engines and use them for months before coming to a conclusion on which to use, that would simply take too much time to wade through engines that aren't good enough, or aren't suited for your needs. But if there are demos showcasing the exact thing you envision your game world to be like then you've suddenly saved months of research and know what you're after.(oh and when I say demo here, I don't mean Crysis or Half-Life2, I mean tech demos)

Quote: "Commenting on texture quality on a sample program for a fully functional game engine serves little purpose."


Helping someone improve their map editor(well the map editing portion) serves little purpose? Well I guess I'll remind myself not to post on any WIP level editor topics as I'm sure the end programmer once they've done the map can improve it better.

Quote: "But it's a demo for an engine, not a drag and drop level editor"


Well the sandbox editor looks a lot like one, you click brushes and raise/lower terrain and the textures get auto applied based on altitude/slope, I assume the trees do to, so why not rocks?

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 19:12
Of course you don't just judge an engine by the screenshots - but it's a deciding factor. Sample games can be useful for getting kick started and seeing what works where with each feature - I've been looking at and trying to different engines and I find the sample programs help you know what you're getting and getting started with something.

the actual context Josh is showing off (textures and trees) aren't that difficult to make or get a hold of - okay textures might be a little more difficult, but as long as you have a decent photograph and know how to create alpha channels/maps or make textures seamless then it would not be difficult to come up with similar images. What I'm admiring is the shader effects that come with it, the quality of rendering and the sandbox editor. If Josh was posting features or example codes showing how the engine works and how friendly it is for the user, then we'd be make comments (and maybe) suggestions about that.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 22:48 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2008 22:50
Quote: "Helping someone improve their map editor(well the map editing portion) serves little purpose?"


Hmmm I don't recall saying that. The Leadwerks engine is a programming API. You are paying for code, not for textures and art assets. Don't confuse the two

You provide your own assets. If you buy the Unreal engine you're not buying textures, 3D models, sounds, levels, etc. You *do* know that, right?

They will most likely supply example levels with example assets--- much like the DBP install folder has some simple models and art. Would you base your purchase of DBP on the included assets? Not likely.

When I installed the Leadwerks engine on my comp it had two example levels, but I'm not meant to then use those assets in my own games. I'm not expecting them to be triple-A quality, but merely something to quickly show what the engine can handle.


Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 23:00
Quote: "
You provide your own assets. If you buy the Unreal engine you're not buying textures, 3D models, sounds, levels, etc. You *do* know that, right?"


I don't think anybody was suggesting that you wouldn't provide your own assests. I don't think many criticisms were media specific (though some may have been), but more to the shaders (which, as far as I am aware come with the engine), the level editor and general comments about the demo. I don't think people are judging the engine by assests along - but like I've said, such assests demonstrated would not be that difficult to replicate as long as you've got yourself some decent images to make textures from and a 3D modelling application.

Quote: "I'm not expecting them to be triple-A quality, but merely something to quickly show what the engine can handle."


And that's what I like to see in demos too - can get you quick started in up and running the engine as well, and I'm sure criticisms made on demonstration demos are allowed to me made as well as points about the engine itself?

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
dark coder
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2008 23:24
Quote: "Hmmm I don't recall saying that. The Leadwerks engine is a programming API. You are paying for code, not for textures and art assets. Don't confuse the two"


I wasn't, he's currently making this demo and I gave him input how to make it look better, what's the issue exactly? Sure top-notch graphics aren't required for engine examples, but they sure help. Especially if they are essentially out-of-the-box, i.e. from the editor, it saves the end-user some time.

Quote: "Would you base your purchase of DBP on the included assets? Not likely."


What does this have to do with anything? DBPro art assets are engine examples now? If DBC came with no example demos/screenshots, or incredibly poor ones then I likely wouldn't have bought it(I'd say the same for DBPro only I won it). This isn't because I buy it for the included media, but because such demos or screenshots show off the capabilities, most demos come with code too so you can see how easy a great looking scene was to make. If these are absent then I have no clue how hard it is to make something like this, I'd have to look at the command set and just guess if I can make these effects, or buy it and try but that's not really a good option as it'd be wasted money and time if it didn't do as you expected.

Leadwerks, unlike DBPro, is a far more unified development pipeline as you get the sandbox editor, and I assume you can use 3D World Studio and what not with it, so it's not like DBPro. Plus I'm pretty sure it's heavily inspired by Crysis, as it shares many effects from it, the sandbox editor, the island map etc etc it's pretty similar. So with this in mind, I give him advice on how to improve this engine toward this goal, my suggestions weren't exactly game or scenario specific either, but I'm sure most games could use some higher frequency noise(by this I mean an additional detail map of course) and pebbles/rocks auto-placed on the rock areas.

Deathead
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Posted: 4th Sep 2008 01:57
Ok, we all have our different oppinions on different subjects..
Dark Coder here thinks a screenshot should be well polished to show off the engine.
Jeku, thinks its just to prove how powerful the engine is.
And Seppuku, is well in the middle of it.lol

Either way this thread was mean't to tell people the overview of the engine so please stop arguing over what is right and what is not!


"Your greatest teacher is your harshest critic"-Butterfingers
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 4th Sep 2008 02:30
Quote: "Either way this thread was mean't to tell people the overview of the engine so please stop arguing over what is right and what is not!"


Agreed. After all, it's meant to be here to show off an engine and its tech demos, not to have us lot bickering about it.

Though I'm sure Josh is flattered to have people argue over his engine.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 5th Sep 2008 20:40
Lol. All I know is that I can't wait to play the tech demo and see how well it runs on my PC, then I'll decide what to do from there....

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