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Geek Culture / Writing Music

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iron programmer
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 02:53
I'm a Musician. When I go to write music for video games or my band I always intend it to be hard and heavy. (Metal) But it always comes out soft and melodic. (Soft Rock, Stairway to Heaven esque) The music I write is for guitar.

mi keety tot mi gramer?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 03:04
Learn to play more heavy songs, learn something by your favourite heavy metal bands. Of course it's always good to play what comes naturally - heavy music tends to come from strong emotions, if you're going to shout or sing loudly, then have something behind it.

If you don't know how to do it technically, it might be good to see what sort of rhythm they keep, the speed, the chords, the tuning and what sort of scales they use. Generic guitar rock seems to consist of playing 5th chords or similar.

Melodic metal isn't such a bad thing, if that's what's natural for you - I play the guitar (not very often) and improvise on it, what I get is normally melodic and that's because I prefer playing like that - I'll take a chord, say A major and start playing the individual strings and improvise with it. Of course, I found by playing with different chords and strumming I get a harder sound.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
iron programmer
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 03:24 Edited at: 20th Jul 2008 03:25
Thanks. What songs do you suggest?

mi keety tot mi gramer?
Saikoro
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 03:30
Learning heavy songs helps you develop the technique to play heavy songs. I have had to play a variety of genres from heavy metal to country and gospel, and whenever I have to learn a new genre, I do what Seppuku said and play many, many songs relating to the genre. You get a real feel of the techniques used and the progressions, way they're played and so forth.

How long have you been playing guitar? What kind of metal do you want to play?

And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart.
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 03:37
Quote: "Thanks. What songs do you suggest?"


What do you listen to?

I've tried playing many Opeth tracks, but to be frank I practice so infrequently it's almost impossible for me to get any skill on a guitar. But Metallica is always good for heavy songs and you'll easily find music books for their songs - Enter Sandman a track you might want to play or perhaps One.

If you're into black or death metal, then I'd suggest making sure you're capable of playing fast - especially your drummer. Behemoth provide good tracks if you're into that sort of thing - I'm not sure how well documented, but you can find most written music on the internet.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
iron programmer
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 04:27
I listen to a variety of metal.
Here are some of them.

Back in Black - AC/DC (Hard Rock)
Stricken - Disturbed
Iron Man - Black Sabbath
Electric Funeral - Black Sabbath
Paranoid - Black Sabbath
War Pigs/Luke's Wall - Black Sabbath
Crazy Train - Ozzy Osbourne
The Metal - Tenacious D
Cult of Personality - Living Colour
My Curse - Killswitch Engage
Jordan - Buckethead
Raining Blood - Slayer
Smoke on the Water - Deep Purple (Hard Rock)
The Trooper - Iron Maiden
Run to the Hills - Iron Maiden
Through the Fire and Flames - Dragonforce
One - Metallica

These are a few of my favorite Metal Songs. The sound I'm looking for is a Dragonforce/Tenacious D/Iron Maiden/Disturbed sound.(The bold songs on the ones with emphasis on them.) How can I:
A.) Write these kind of Songs?
and...
B.) Play these kind of Songs?

mi keety tot mi gramer?
Saikoro
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 04:33
The best way to learn how to play a song is to transcribe it yourself. Transcribe it over and over until you get near 100% correctness, and can play it.

And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 06:27
Yay, Matty's back!

If you confine yourself to one style of music, you're bound to never accomplish anything worthwhile in your musical career. You need to explore every genre of music you can get your hands on, and give each style an honest, sincere go. If you like something, you like it... if you lie to yourself about the music you like, you may as well quit while you're ahead. I'm a pretty good songwriter I think, and I'm extremely eclectic. My music collection ranges from Frank Sinatra to The Roots, Chuck Berry to The Stranglers . But that's just it... if I like something I hear, I like it, and there's no debate. Not enough people do that these days.

[rant]If you want to write good music, you have to go learn your roots. You just referred to Stairway to Heaven as "soft rock." If you were standing in front of me, I'd have slapped you just then! Kidding of course... well, I think I'm kidding anyway .

The "old" definition of "heavy" was (fullness + raw emotional power + musical mastery = heavy). The modern definition is (loudness + speed + scary = heavy). It's all rubbish imo. The only metal band I've heard that has the goods really is System of a Down, but even they are too watered down for my tastes. If I want heavy, I'll go listen to Led Zeppelin, or The Who, or Radiohead, or Queen. You can't name a single metal song that's even remotely as heavy as "Death on Two Legs." . [/rant]

Saikoro
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 08:57
Quote: "Yay, Matty's back!"

Yes, and hopefully for more that just a brief stay!

I'd like to expand on Matt's point and say that a composer's primary job should be to listen to music. You must listen, listen, and never stop listening, no matter how new or old the music is. You may not find anything you can take out of Band A's work, and Band B may be similar sounding to Band A, but give Band B an honest shot anyway. Sometimes it's the little differences in music that make listening worthwhile.

I advise you to find a teacher or mentor, one with experience teaching and playing. The help they can give will far outweigh anything you'll be able to absorb over internet forums.

And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 20th Jul 2008 23:35
Do this... go buy these songs on itunes or whatever. You might hate them, you might love them. But it's important that you actually give them all a serious, honest try, and don't let your brain say "it isn't metal, it must be crap." I'm sure others will expand this list (or debate it lol), but I'm trying to show you a wider variety of music to keep you from being a rubbish songwriter, we have enough of those .

Death on Two Legs - Queen
Village Green Preservation Society - The Kinks
Beyond the Sea - Bobby Darin
Lucky - Radiohead
Army of Me - Bjork
Since I've Been Loving You - Led Zeppelin
Rock & Roll Suicide - David Bowie
lipstick Vogue - Elvis Costello
Sing a Simple Song - Sly and the Family Stone
Blind - Face to Face
Hell - Squirrel Nut Zippers
Caught by the Fuzz - Supergrass
Where in the Hell did you go with my toothbrush? - Reverend Horton Heat
My Name is Mud - Primus
All Mine - Portishead

iron programmer
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Posted: 21st Jul 2008 00:19
I do kinda like System of a Down. Especially B.Y.O.B.

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iron programmer
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Posted: 21st Jul 2008 00:42 Edited at: 21st Jul 2008 00:50
My favorite guitarists of al time are:

Tony Iommi
Carlos Santana
Sam Totman
Herman Li
Paul Hemenway
Kirk Hammett
Dave Murray
Troy Stetina
Michael Angelo Batio

Could Someone also please give me a link to simple genre related riffs/grooves (or write some down here)?! I've been looking for one of those for weeks on end! Preferred genres are:

Techno
Funk
Blues
Jazz
Metal
Rock
Latin

mi keety tot mi gramer?
Cian Rice
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Posted: 21st Jul 2008 01:15
Herman Li has posted videos on Youtube as to how he goes about creating the videogame like sounds of Inhuman Rampage. You could try looking at those.

Don't have any other suggestions since I'm not going to be learning the guitar for a while...

Vorg1
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Posted: 21st Jul 2008 07:06 Edited at: 21st Jul 2008 07:11
Here is how to play good metal.

de-tune your guitar in Drop C or Drop D Then just mess around with some lower power chords to come up with a riff then work with a lead around that. It is usually the best way. Also listen to any sort of music then if you are good enough tab it out or go to ultimate-guitar.com or a website like that to find tabs for nearly any song. Don't really worry about writing music until you can actually start playing full songs is my philosophy. Also Dragonforce is not really metal. Sure they can play fast but every one of there songs are excactly the same and they totally suck live IMO. I personally am a fan of (older) Dillinger Escape Plan, Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold, As I Lay Dying, Trivium, Darkest Hour, and Bullet For My Valentine to name a few. But that is just me
A Tea Spoon
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Posted: 21st Jul 2008 08:47
what i do is listen to some random band out of the blue that ive never heard before,(i find it on itunes then listen on you tube) listen to a guitar solo, and while trying to play the solo i will screw up and find a new catchy riff, then i will ad in my own little things and shorten it, then mesh it together into a nice back bone of a song, and for me once i got the back bone of the song the rest comes naturally.

listen to this song, the lyrics suck and they mess up a few times but it is really catchy and the guitar solos are incredible. i have been inspired by this many times.

edit: i did not make this song, the band released it free.

edith and if you have a recorder, use it. iv forgotten alot of my best material. lisening to it helps you remember.

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sp3ng
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 11:12
yes another KsE fan

anyway if your guitar sound all high and melodic try downtuning (unless you already have)


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sprite
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2008 21:34 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2008 22:24
The first thing is to buy an overdrive pedal unless your amp has an overdrive.

The guitar you have and its pickups have an effect on the sound.

My first guitar a Yamaha Pacifica did not have the pickups for what I wanted but it was great learning guitar. My amp was a Frender 15R it did not have the power for live playing but its great for room playing.

The second guitar was a jackson warrior and the amp Hughes & Kettner Tri Amp and cab. It had the balls for metal and darkwave music. Also the midi module plugs right into the PC if your sound card can handle it. Unlike the first amp the second is a valve amp you have to let it heat up for 10+mins.

Don't go for the first amp you find test as many as you can. Then test again and choose. Have your band mates with you if you can.

There are many ways to write music. With the band I'm in we use a one min builder style. You write the lyrics, then you chop the song into one minutes parts. You can then have a mess around or build each part to it. The reason is you can come up with some good riffs but can't remember what they were after 2min playing. Once you have one part written down play it again and add the next 1min. By the time you finish a song your have the first 2mins down.

Also don't limit your sound to having a guitar, a bass, a drummer and singer. Try adding something new like a violin or some other sounds. One band I was which played before us had a violin and the sound was very different to normal sounds. They added a few pedals had some good sounds.

I'll add something later on.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 00:44
Lyrics are always the very last thing I write. I need a tune in my head to write them, and I'm not a big fan of lyrics anyway, so they're always last on my to-do list

iron programmer
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 03:55
I also hate lyrics. But what about my request for a link to the basic grooves?! Please, I want to be versatile. (Oh, and please make them FREE grooves.)

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sprite
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 20:37
I guess its more to do with my bands singer coming with a song and we move backwards.

If you need some tabs go for

http://www.olga.net/ Although the site has been closed down it does link two sites.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/ this site has some good tabs and a lessons tolearn from and a very active forum.

I'll add something later on.
sinisterstuf
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 14:28
I agree with Vorg1. Detune your guitar, Drop D is fine for me but you might want even darker. 5ths are darker than 7ths but I like seventh's because the sound nicer most of the time. Rythm is very important. For the rythm you should probably stick to the lower strings around 6,5,4. If you just stick your finger on the 1st fret and play a rythm with some mutes and triplets and have dead notes it will sound awesime for a rythm part like for a chorus. Then if you play some powerchords on strings 5,4 with bass notes inbetween on the open D string it sounds good. Harmonics are also cool sounding things. Example (don't steal it, it's mine which I'm using):

then repeat. Obviously it changes to add more complicated stuff but it was just an example. And all those zeros after the first 3 chords are palm muted. It might not diplay properly so just copy it into notepad if ur bothered.

contrast is also important. If you've been playing super fast heavy stuff then it can be good to suddenly have something with lots of pauses or switch to clean. Just an idea.

also, anything sounds much cooler with a full band rather than just a guitar on it's own. Expecially with drums.

was this helpful?

Well... No, my name IS actually 'sinisterstuf' not 'Sinister Stuff', a misspelling resulting from the former having too many characters with no spaces in between

thanks CattleRustler!
iron programmer
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 18:36
Yes it was! (I'll be working on programming tomorrow.)

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iron programmer
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 05:10
Also-
CAN SOMEBODY HELP ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I have no idea what kind of music I should write!!! I like metal, shred, hard-rock, rock (Stairway to Heaven esque)! I really like shred but have NO clue how to write it!! I want to write Dragonforce esque stuff, but with Christian themes!! How the HECKITY HECKING HECKY HECKLY HECKYISHYISHYISH HECK do I write Christian Dragonforce-shred?! Please give a detailed approach and examples to writing these parts of a song:

Intro
Bridge to Verse
Verse
Bridge to Chorus (Pre-Chorus)
Chorus
Bridge to Medium Solo
Medium Solo
Bridge to Verse
Verse
Bridge to Short Solo
Short Solo
Bridge to Chorus
Chorus
Bridge to Long Solo
Long Solo
Bridge to Chorus
Chorus
Bridge to Outro
Outro

Remember- Dragonforce esque-shred!

mi keety tot mi gramer?
iron programmer
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 21:40
Please Help!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 22:50
Can you play Shred first? No point WRITING it until you know how to play it and get good practice, get the feel - play cover songs to start with, just keep playing them, that's what a lot of bands do, then when writing your music, start simple! Build up, there's no set formula to writing good music as you don't get good music overnight. Basically write what comes out of you...there is no 'way' to write music. By playing your favourite music, your style will gain its influence, yet at the same time, being your own.

Give it time, play lots of songs, learn them, build yourself up and when you do, you'll know the answer to your question, you'll find a style you like, you'll find something you enjoy playing.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
Jeku
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 23:16
@iron programmer - Quit bumping your thread, and use the Edit Post button.


iron programmer
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 23:21
I'm talking about tapping shred.

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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 23:51
Tapping... You learn a scale you find three points on it you tap them and move to a different 3 points. Just pick ones that sound cool. Yes, I know, it probably isn't that simple, sorry. But try experiment. Try learning other people's stuff and mess around trying new stuff alot.

Well... No, my name IS actually 'sinisterstuf' not 'Sinister Stuff', a misspelling resulting from the former having too many characters with no spaces in between

thanks CattleRustler!
Mattman
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 01:13 Edited at: 28th Jul 2008 01:14
In my opinion, any good song can be played loud or quiet. I'm not into most of the music listed above (Metallica, Dragonforce, etc) but one song we may find common ground on is "Lay Down" by Priestess. Its an intense metal song full of emotion and swagger. Palm muted guitars, wailing singer, crash cymbals abound, I think the arrangement qualifies it for heavy metal status. However, couldn't you imagine it being played by a philharmonic orchestra? Both the main riff and the singer's melody would work well on classical instruments like the viola or violin. So my point here is: Defining Metal (and any other "style" of music) is more about the performance of the song; the song itself is much more related to the songwriter. I suggest you focus on writing a song, and then working it into the form of a song from the style you are aiming for, based on the arrangement and performance.

Your post requesting "a detailed approach and examples to writing these parts of a song" is simply idiotic, no offense. There is no method to writing a "Bridge to Chorus (Pre-Chorus)". I've been writing music for about five years now, and I'm really proud of my compositions from the past three years. The first two years I consider to be the most important because I learned what works, what doesn't work, and have developed certain methods to writing a song (I know I said there isn't a method to the question you asked in the other post, but I do believe every songwriter can find their own method). Songwriting takes practice; playing and studying your favorite bands' music is a wonderful idea. One favorite activity of mine would be to attempt to write a song using musical methods and practices of one bands, but then using arrangements of another band. In the end you can create something that sounds like The Killing Joke playing something by The Cure; its quite interesting and provides a lot of experience.

Side Note: I find it interesting that the three Matts here are some of the more musically inclined members of the community!

@Matt Rock: Why did you recommended he purchase "Lucky"? Although I have nothing against the song, I don't remember anything particularly of note in terms of the song's composition. Radiohead is full of examples in songwriting and I know you have some reason behind picking that song.

Why make sense when you could make brownies?
Vorg1
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 07:23 Edited at: 28th Jul 2008 07:27
Cristian Metal band that you should learn to play BEFORE writing music

As I Lay Dying
The Showdown
Demon Hunter
The Chariot
As Cities Burn
Norma Jean
Zao
Destroy the Runner
Haste The Day
Underoath

LEARN to play some of these songs. once you can master tapping,lead, rythym,vocals, and that fun stuff then write music. or better yet JOIN A BAND!!!!


You can have people help write music and get experience playing at the same time.
There isn't much I think you can learn though through a game creators forum like this. You just need to get expierence.
Saikoro
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 12:26
I would seriously suggest getting a guitar teacher, for the very reason I've mentioned earlier. Everything you've asked since my last post (song structure, how to shred/tap, etc.) is more suited for some sort of trainer to teach you one on one. Even finding someone to teach you some stuff online would be nice, via msn or some program such as. But learning technique requires you find a personal trainer, or watch videos and such. Asking these kinds of things on a game programming forum won't exactly teach you what you're looking for.

And these words which I command you today shall be on your heart.
Matt Rock
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 22:05 Edited at: 28th Jul 2008 22:10
Quote: "Side Note: I find it interesting that the three Matts here are some of the more musically inclined members of the community! "

I never really thought of that, that's pretty awesome

I picked Lucky for the subtle use of harmonic soundscaping. It's not as in-your-face as soundscaping in some of their other songs, like Everything in its right place or Paranoid Android, so he'd have to work a little to understand why that song is so good (a great learning exercise I figure). I agree, Radiohead has far better examples of songwriting in their catalog though. I think anyone can learn from them, regardless of what genre they're keen on. They're a great example of a band that is properly "heavy," without substituting quanity for volume. And range? From soft melodic stuff to gutwrenching heavy stuff in the blink of an eye, I challenge anyone to name another band with that sort of range lol. But I'm a hardcore Radiohead fan (one look at my Myspace page shows that, lol), so I might be a bit bias .

Edit: You can watch the entire Radiohead movie Scotch Mist on my Myspace page in its entirety . They posted it to Youtube.

iron programmer
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Posted: 2nd Aug 2008 01:13 Edited at: 4th Aug 2008 23:51
I re-wrote The Metal by Tenacious D. It is now...The Power Metal by Tenacious Me.



Also, could someone please point me in the direction of a power metal song (non-lyrical) for a starting power metal band to do to see if power metal is really their "thing"? Thanks.

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iron programmer
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Posted: 4th Aug 2008 23:54
Hello? Anyone/thing out there?

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