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Geek Culture / Shortest distance between points...does it exist?

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Nano brain
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 07:49
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In space-time, is there a shortest distance between two points? Or, is distance an illusion?

If there is no minimum distance, then how do objects move through space, from one point across an infinite amount of points, to another point?

If there is a minimum distance, is it a planck unit? Or, is there another possible unit. Or, whatever kind of explanation.

If we were to be able to recored video at the speed of light, would each frame in the animation show an object moving from one absolute unit of space to another(from one frame to the next)?

Just a few questions that I used to ponder. My best explanation is that space does not exist...but that it is waves which create information through their interactions...which ultimately create the illusion of matter and distance and time.
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Xenocythe
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 07:58
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From what I see, life is like a monitor. The world is seen with an infinite amount of pixels, at an infinite resolution.

If maximum distance doesn't exist- if space really is endless, then there may be no such thing as minimum distance either.

3.11 We do not tolerate posts made for the purpose of putting down another forum member, group of members, religion, our company, our staff or any of our moderators, past or present.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 08:25
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your mom is an illusion.

ohhh DISS!


it exists, don't be so silly, it's just that you can divide a distance in half, infinitely, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. and if you think about it, if you keep dividing a distance of, lets say, 1 inch in half an infinite number of times, you'll EVENTUALLY get there. It'll take an infinite amount of time, but you'll get there. Because you have a finite number you're trying to get to.

Anyway... space exists, it's all around us, don't let our flawed mathematical rules hurt your brain.

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Punk13
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 10:10
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?what?

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 10:14
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@Punk

I think this might be a little beyond your mental apacity...I know it's beyond mine......

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 13:19
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Quote: "Anyway... space exists, it's all around us, don't let our flawed mathematical rules hurt your brain."


Yes, it all sounds nice on a philosophical side, but thinking abou a shortest distance and concluding the illusion of space time can be confusing...however I did try to argue here once that time is a illusion...which you could suppose it is...and I think there are schools of philosophical thought that suggest that reality is all in the mind as it is the mind that connects us through, through our senses and they says that it's very possible that our sense could be decieved - I think this was a particular idea by Descartes...however this is a man who liked to meditate in an oven.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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HowDo
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 14:38
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one to ponder the mind is faster than light.

eg think of the sun you got there in less than eight minutes.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
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SunnyKatt
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 14:50
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First you have to figure out god's resolution. After that, measure the width of one pixel in nano-nano-nano-meters or whatever. Then, you can safely say that the shortest distance is 1 px. Because if you go any closer, you are on top of eachother or overlapping, and the distance is no longer visible.



Favorite Quote: Dramatized code? Code Drama!

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soapyfish
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 15:09
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I'm just going to nod and pretend I understand.

Story of my life people!


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tha_rami
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 15:17
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Quote: "it exists, don't be so silly, it's just that you can divide a distance in half, infinitely, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. and if you think about it, if you keep dividing a distance of, lets say, 1 inch in half an infinite number of times, you'll EVENTUALLY get there. It'll take an infinite amount of time, but you'll get there. Because you have a finite number you're trying to get to."

Haha, perfect answer, lol.


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Roxas
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 15:40
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[b][/b]

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2008 16:50 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2008 16:52
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It has been said a few times that space is just an illusion that seperates here from there, in the same way that time has been shown to be an illusion that seperates now from later.

There's a phenomemon at the quantum level called entanglement, where if you break one particle into two, no matter how far apart they are, whatever you do to one, the same will be done to the other instantaniously - keep in mind that usually nothing, not even gravity, is instantanious.

Now keep in mind that Big Bang Theory suggests that the whole universe was originally stuffed into a single particle. Is there any shortest distance between two points? I don't know, but atleast it feels like it.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Some Guy
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 03:12
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There can be minimum distance between stuff, it's just really small.

Uhhh... what?
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 03:24
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sigh

Quote: "Just a few questions that I used to ponder. My best explanation is that space does not exist...but that it is waves which create information through their interactions...which ultimately create the illusion of matter and distance and time."

Matter exists, there IS a smallest possible distance. Read here.

Quote: "if space really is endless"

Space isn't endless. The universe is that of a dynamic one, which means it will one day end (Best theory of the end is the "Big Rip", use wikipedia). The universe is ever expanding, there is an end to the universe, but it seems infinite, think of the universe as a special kind of matter (space-time) it continuously expands, and will continue doing so for another 13-14 billion years (citation on length needed). It's not infinite.


Cheers,

-naota

I'm not a dictator to those that do stuff for me by will. Only those who don't.
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 04:02
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The shortest distance is measured in light years. The Planck units are used to express 4D volume. On the frames question: no. As to whether space exists, obviously no: it is merely a mathematical contrivance. As to whether matter is illusory, I wish it were; my hemorrhoid seems awfully real.
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Keo C
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 04:10
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Space time rip! T-rex in the supermarket!


Image made by the overworked Biggadd.
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Osiris
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 05:01
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There was like a book about this, sci-fi book. It had like inter-dimensional beings... Can someone remember the name?

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 05:03
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Quote: "As to whether space exists, obviously no"


Wow, thanks for clearing that up... I didn't realize something that is controversial was so OBVIOUS. Man...

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Darth Kiwi
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 11:14
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I'm not sure who thought of this, but a philosopher speculated that there is no shortest distance between two points. Observe:

1) Take two points. They are the shortest distance apart.
2) Now move each one the shortest distance away from each other.
3) When they are twice the shortest distance away from each other, they will each have moved half the shortest distance.
4) There is no such thing as "half the shortest distance"
5) This makes no sense - thus, there is no shortest distance.

But that was thousands of years ago, so maybe science has moved on since then.

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Agent Dink
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 13:56
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Quote: "Shortest distance between points...does it exist?"


Who cares?




MISoft Studios - Silver-Dawn

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Roxas
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 17:36
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As long my trip from home to shop is short, i dont need this info

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David R
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 19:52 Edited at: 24th Jul 2008 19:53
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Quote: "Matter exists, there IS a smallest possible distance. Read here."


Planck units are relative to other equations/units. Hence they cannot be definitive answer (You have to assume that the equations of physics that they use are right in all circumstance). Kind of a big leap to make

Quote: "
Space isn't endless. The universe is that of a dynamic one, which means it will one day end (Best theory of the end is the "Big Rip", use wikipedia). The universe is ever expanding, there is an end to the universe, but it seems infinite, think of the universe as a special kind of matter (space-time) it continuously expands, and will continue doing so for another 13-14 billion years (citation on length needed). It's not infinite.
"


Disprove the theorem that the universe is infinite. You've merely stated counter theorems. You haven't disproved the original statement, only plugged a stack of opinions onto it.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
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Diggsey
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Posted: 24th Jul 2008 20:15
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Quote: "The Planck units are used to express 4D volume"


That's complete rubbish... The planck units are a different set of SI units from those that we use normally. There is a Planck unit for every type of quantity.
Length = Planck length
Time = Planck time
etc.

Planck units are not the smallest distance, they are the smallest distance you can possibly measure (which could be argued to be the same thing) (If you measure distance by bouncing a photon off an object, the shorter the wavelength, the more accurate the result, and the more energy in the photon. If the wavelength is less than 1 plank length, then a black hole is created when the photon hits the object, which then swallows the photon, so it never returns, and so you can't measure the distance.

Yuor signutare was aresed by a deslyxic mud...
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bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Jul 2008 18:54
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Quote: "There was like a book about this, sci-fi book. It had like inter-dimensional beings... Can someone remember the name?
"


Like, every sci fi ever created?

Anyway, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls by Heinlein covered time travel.


Hurray for teh logd!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th Jul 2008 21:57
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Quote: "Disprove the theorem that the universe is infinite. You've merely stated counter theorems. You haven't disproved the original statement, only plugged a stack of opinions onto it."


That's called a burden of proof (or disproof I suppose in this case). And it's not any more of an opinion than what the other theory states. The universe is said to be infinite but boundless, so you are both right in this case.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Osiris
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 03:56
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Quote: "Like, every sci fi ever created?

Anyway, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls by Heinlein covered time travel."


Nope, found it. It is called "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L'Engle.


RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 03:58
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Quote: "Nope, found it. It is called "A Wrinkle in Time" by Madeleine L'Engle. "


Haha, it could have been any of a million books. Mine was more of a recommendation than an answer. As for the book you were thinking of, I'm gonna have to go look it up^.^


Hurray for teh logd!
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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 13:30
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You cannot chop stuff up into indefinitely small pieces. Here is a version of Zeno's most famous paradox: Imagine a greek warior sees an archer fire an arrow at him from 100m away so he turns and runs. The arrow is moving 10 times as fast as the runner. By the time the arrow has covered the distance of 100m the runner will have moved 10m. By the time the arrow has moved 10m the runner will have moved 1m. By the time the arrow has moved 1m the runner will have moved 0.1 m. By the time the arrow has moved 0.1m the runner will have moved 0.01 m and so on and so forth. So while we continue to chop things up into indefinitely smaller pieces the arrow will never hit the runner, just like those exponential graphs that get close and closer to 0 but never actually touch it. Obviously this does not work in real life. It would be more like: The arrow moves 100m. The runner moves 10. The arrow moves 100m *THWACK!* And this is why there are planck units like the planck length, the smallest measurable length. This way we can avoid stuff like greek warriors outrunning arrows or zenos original story which was of tortoises outrunning sprinters!

Or you could take my brother's theory: Science is a lie. The universe is controlled by magic and science just happens to be a very good explanation so far. Bur it's actually jusy magic.

Now remember. This stuff is bad for you, especially in excess quantities. So rather talk about your favorite FPS or something.

Well... No, my name IS actually 'sinisterstuf' not 'Sinister Stuff', a misspelling resulting from the former having too many characters with no spaces in between

thanks CattleRustler!
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Chris K
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 18:56
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Quote: "It has been said a few times that space is just an illusion that seperates here from there, in the same way that time has been shown to be an illusion that seperates now from later."


Said a few times by idiots.

Quote: "The arrow is moving 10 times as fast as the runner. By the time the arrow has covered the distance of 100m the runner will have moved 10m. By the time the arrow has moved 10m the runner will have moved 1m. By the time the arrow has moved 1m the runner will have moved 0.1 m. By the time the arrow has moved 0.1m the runner will have moved 0.01 m and so on and so forth. So while we continue to chop things up into indefinitely smaller pieces the arrow will never hit the runner, just like those exponential graphs that get close and closer to 0 but never actually touch it. Obviously this does not work in real life."


The reason it hits him is because an infinite series can have a finite value.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 19:25
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Quote: "Said a few times by idiots."


Please read my paragraph about entanglement - and what authority do you have to call great scientific minds "idiots"?

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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bitJericho
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 19:28
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Quote: "It has been said a few times that space is just an illusion that seperates here from there, in the same way that time has been shown to be an illusion that seperates now from later."


I like this one better: Time is just a way to keep everything from happening all at once.


Hurray for teh logd!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 19:37
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Quote: "I like this one better: Time is just a way to keep everything from happening all at once."


I don't really like that one because "all at once" sounds like it's in the context of an already existing time - but it's just words in the end of the way, heh.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 20:53
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I can see time possibly being an illusion, but not space - though if a philosophical or scientific mind has constructed an argument for it, then it might be worth reading. And the reason why time could be said to be an illusion because there's nothing empirical about it, we can't 'sense time' if you will, we have an idea of time because we 'speak, then we stop speaking' (to use the simplest of examples) - time could be said to be a cognitive thing, say, we percieve an 'If, then' statement or the 'past' is just a memory and the 'future' is what we intend to do. When we measure time, we could really be only measuring to points in the mind or a certain piece of logic.

I suppose a reasoning difficult to explain when it could be an illusion and when you think it isn't an illusion yourself, but I can why time as an illusion is a possibility. (Space is more difficult to digest)

However scientists have done experiments with Atomic clocks that appear to dispute the idea...but that is assuming it is time that is effecting the data.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Mr Z
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Posted: 26th Jul 2008 23:40 Edited at: 26th Jul 2008 23:41
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Shortest distence between two points? 0.

You can say that matter have two sides. One side is particles and the other side is the "waves", or energy. They are all the same, just different sides of the same thing. Sometimes matter act like particles, sometimes like waves.

What I have heard, though, is that information on quantom level travel at an infinate speed. Was what our teacher told us, anyway.

Quote: "You cannot chop stuff up into indefinitely small pieces. Here is a version of Zeno's most famous paradox: Imagine a greek warior sees an archer fire an arrow at him from 100m away so he turns and runs. The arrow is moving 10 times as fast as the runner. By the time the arrow has covered the distance of 100m the runner will have moved 10m. By the time the arrow has moved 10m the runner will have moved 1m. By the time the arrow has moved 1m the runner will have moved 0.1 m. By the time the arrow has moved 0.1m the runner will have moved 0.01 m and so on and so forth. So while we continue to chop things up into indefinitely smaller pieces the arrow will never hit the runner, just like those exponential graphs that get close and closer to 0 but never actually touch it. Obviously this does not work in real life. It would be more like: The arrow moves 100m. The runner moves 10. The arrow moves 100m *THWACK!* And this is why there are planck units like the planck length, the smallest measurable length. This way we can avoid stuff like greek warriors outrunning arrows or zenos original story which was of tortoises outrunning sprinters!

Or you could take my brother's theory: Science is a lie. The universe is controlled by magic and science just happens to be a very good explanation so far. Bur it's actually jusy magic.

Now remember. This stuff is bad for you, especially in excess quantities. So rather talk about your favorite FPS or something."


Well, fortunelty the universe does not care of philosophical things like that paradox. There also exist an paradox that "proves" that movement is impossible. It is like that old coin thing someone told me once that made no sense until you realized that the math in it was wrong.

And sience a lie? Nah, sience is just a way to through trial and error build up models of the universe, test it and if it fails, build new ones and do that over and over again approaching the model that works best. Sience is not static, it is just to build up models (not one, sience is not one model) of reality based on what know and so.

There is no greater virtue, then the ability to face oneself.
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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 17:21
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@ Mr Z
I like science, I think it's good but here:

Do you agree that something that is not true is a lie? i.e. something you are told that isn't true

So if a scientific law is found not to be true then it is a lie?

Science is considered to be one of the truest things around but there are countless examples of when it's wrong. Take paradigm shifts for example; what about when Einstein said that Newton's laws aren't all that great. Fine for everyday stuff but otherwise not. So Newton's laws are lies so all we need now is for science as we know it now to be proved wrong, something which will undoubtedly happen just as before. And we think that what we know is true now. But when it's replaced by something better how do we know that that's true? Science is concerned with many things that we will possibly never see and relies heavily on theories. And we all know what 'theory' means.

Sorry, I'll stop now.

Well... No, my name IS actually 'sinisterstuf' not 'Sinister Stuff', a misspelling resulting from the former having too many characters with no spaces in between

thanks CattleRustler!
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dark coder
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 17:42
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Quote: "So if a scientific law is found not to be true then it is a lie?"

Not unless the scientist that conceived it knew it to be false but claimed it to be true, otherwise it would just be a mistake or perhaps the theory was only scratching the surface and was later found to be insufficient, this doesn't make it a lie.

Quote: "Science is considered to be one of the truest things around but there are countless examples of when it's wrong. Take paradigm shifts for example; what about when Einstein said that Newton's laws aren't all that great. Fine for everyday stuff but otherwise not. So Newton's laws are lies so all we need now is for science as we know it now to be proved wrong, something which will undoubtedly happen just as before. And we think that what we know is true now. But when it's replaced by something better how do we know that that's true? Science is concerned with many things that we will possibly never see and relies heavily on theories. And we all know what 'theory' means."


So what? Scientists never claim to be 100% certain about everything because they can't(yet?), they observe something and make a 'theory' about how it works, if this 'theory' passes many tests then it can be accepted as the current model to base further things relating to this theory with. If there is a discrepancy in the future, when testing methods/tools etc become more advanced then it can be refuted, and a better model made. Newton's theory or gravitation may have been wrong, but it at the time I'm sure it matched all observations and is still used today for many things due to its simplicity.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Jul 2008 18:36
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Yes, and if all these things were 'lies' then a lot of our technology wouldn't work.

Newton's theories made the most sense at the time, but as time (if it exists ) progresses understanding of the world increases, technology improves and more things have been tested, so Einstein came along and found something more in depth and what is more mathematically accurate than Newton's. Of course it doesn't replace it, because Einstein's theory is much more complex and Newton's theories can help explain things better. (If you don't need a completely accurate answer...like in Secondary/High School physics) But really nothing as such can be 'proven', it's just you use the evidence you have available and see what model makes the most logical sense. Hence you might find things conflict - Einsteins says it is impossible to go faster than the speed of light, whilst the String theory does.

Science isn't universal knowledge, it's not saying that something IS true, but to our best knowledge, resources, evidence and logic something I believe to be most likely. This is why some scientists will not deny the existence of God or some philosophies, whilst some 'science' minded people may think the idea ridiculous.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Chris K
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 00:30
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@ Zotoaster

Link me to a great scientist giving that quote, or it didn't happen.

-= Out here in the fields, I fight for my meals =-
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sinisterstuf
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Posted: 28th Jul 2008 00:47 Edited at: 28th Jul 2008 00:52
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Ok

I agree.

[EDIT] with Seppuku Arts, dark coder and co.

By the way, apparantly one thing that proves string theory is that when the universe was born it was tiny and so was the string. And as it expanded so did the string. So there exist, in space, these massive stretched string that distort waves like radio and light and stuff which scientists have found. Which is supposed to prove both string theory and big bang theory. It's just one of the proofs though, I didn't really understand the other ones and I don't know enough about string anyway...

Well... No, my name IS actually 'sinisterstuf' not 'Sinister Stuff', a misspelling resulting from the former having too many characters with no spaces in between

thanks CattleRustler!
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