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Geek Culture / Direct3D 9, Direct3D 10, or OpenGL in a GDK?

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 00:34
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Hullo all.

I have a quick poll to you all of great importance to me. In a GDK which rendering device would you rather be supported? Direct3D 9.0c, Direct3D 10, or OpenGL?

Note, OpenGL would be from 1.5 or higher which means support for GLSL vertex and fragment shaders, multi-texturing, cube-mapping, VBOs (The equivalent to a D3D Vertex Buffer and Index Buffer, or D3D9 ID3D10Buffer) - etc.

Josh, creator of Leadwerks engine, claims D3D9's draw call is slower than OpenGL's draw call, btw. However D3D 10 is the same speed as OpenGL (apparently). Having done a slight amount of research it would appear Microsoft admits that the D3D 9 draw call is slow (Found in D3D 10 documentation, I believe).

Thank you.

Cheers,

-naota

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David R
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 00:44
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Wait for GL3 and implement that. Would make it future proofed GL-wise, considering GL3 is supposed be finalised by September


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 00:50 Edited at: 11th Aug 2008 00:51
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Personally. DirectX 10, it seems newer systems are more optimised for DirectX 10 games and I certain seem to get higher and more solid frame rates in DirectX 10 powered games than DirectX 9 ones. admittedly I haven't tried those games for their DX9 versions.

Plus I've not seen any affordable DX 10 engines out there (except FPSCX10- Leadwerks utilises the power of Open GL, DGK utilises DX9, so it'd be interesting to see low budget software that effective utilises DX10.

Unless you can name any DirectX 10 engines out there within an indie budget.

Don't know if I'd be a buyer of such an engine, depends how well it manages to compete against other engines. I'm on the verge of purchasing Leadwerks myself.


[Edit]

Though GL3 might be better for XP and Vista users (just catching the last post) as MS took the Vista exclusive approach with DX10.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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ionstream
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 00:56
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I think either DirectX 9 or OpenGL because they have pretty high compatibility and speed. When DirectX 10 gets more users, I'd say go with that.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 01:12
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Okay - so it's pretty much tied, lol.

@David R
The OpenGL version won't matter because there would be a (temporary) OOP version of OpenGL in use which could cater to whatever API OpenGL does use under the hood and remain high level at the top.

@Seppuku Arts
That makes sense - so are you supporting D3D 10 or GL 3? Note: GL 3 would mean cross platform, D3D 10 means just Windows. Although, as a general note, the GDK wouldn't be cross platform until enough sells are done to be able to develop for another platform (Such as the Mac).

@ionstream
Well, it's not like the GDK would be released instantly. If D3D 10 was used then by the time it was released D3D 10 should be pretty popular and D3D "11" would have little users which would give time to port towards D3D 11 quickly with the base D3D 10 code still there.

@everyone
Extra note on cross-platform. OpenGL 3 would be used in such an event however there are absolutely no guarantees of any form of cross-platform compliance (For example, it could remain just for Windows).

Cheers,

-naota

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Keo C
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 01:32
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OpenGL kthxbai


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 01:37
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Quote: "so are you supporting D3D 10 or GL 3?"


Either is groovy with me (as long as GL3 performs/works well), but for arguments/polls sake, DirectX10 is the one I'll suggest.

But Open GL does add that advantage of cross platform if you can market it.

However - my suggestion would be: what would you find easiest to get stable, easiest to work with and get working properly?

And as a side note, good documentation, examples and tutorials I think can go a long way on an SDK as well (and good service) - as I've been looking for a new tool to play with, those are the some of the things I've been looking for.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 01:55
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It would appear OpenGL is standing out then (Currently) as it would be the easiest to get stable and work with (It is very close to the graphics card with certain extensions).

Note: I got an additional 2 votes towards OpenGL (1 from a team developer, and another from a friend). I'm also slightly interested in OpenGL for the reason of portability and how closely it's tied to the hardware.

So, it looks like it wouldn't hurt to do some extra OpenGL work meanwhile.

I'm still very interested in what the community has to say though - there's only 8 messages in the thread so far (Including this one) so that alone can't solely resolve the poll.

Thank you all.

Cheers,

-naota

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Diggsey
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 02:43
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Yay, I count as a friend lol

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 02:49
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Yes Diggsey, you do.

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Diggsey
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 02:50
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Hey, you're supposed to be offline

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Keo C
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 03:28
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Quote: "Hey, you're supposed to be offline"

It's just an Aaron bot.


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Kieran
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 07:47
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I would say OpenGL.
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JoelJ
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 07:50
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I say go for OGL, because it is cross platform.
DX10 is really interesting to me. It looks amazing, and I'm excited because I have vista and a DX10 compatible video card, and a computer to stand behind it. But doing a small search, I can't really even preview it without buy a whole game.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 09:54
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Joel, download demo versions of a game - I pretty much downloaded the demos of Crysis and Devil May Cry 4 to test it out on when I bought the machine. Though Crysis demo is nearly 2gb of downloading.

"Experience never provides its judgments with true or strict universality; but only (through induction) with assumed and comparative universality." - Immanuel Kant
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Roxas
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 11:49
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OpenGL its fast and cross-plaftrom. And can archive some really neat things

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Alucard94
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 12:50
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I would go with OpenGL because of the Cross Platform side of it, and besides, I've not had that great experiences with D3D 10.


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The Heavy
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 18:57
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OpenGL for the win and linux compatibility, speaking of openGl i've been looing through a couple of ebooks on the subject for the past 2 weeks.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Aug 2008 22:59
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OpenGL it is then, heh.

Cheers,

-naota

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bitJericho
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Posted: 12th Aug 2008 03:50
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OpenGL is for newbs.


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Twisted Steel Software
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Posted: 12th Aug 2008 04:00
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Jerico: OpenGL is capable of quite a bit more than DirectX and is fairly simple to use. It tends to be a tiny bit faster too, on almost all game engines I've used that can do both (Torque, Ogre, Irrlicht).

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Benjamin
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Posted: 12th Aug 2008 04:04
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OpenGL.

Quote: "Jerico: OpenGL is capable of quite a bit more than DirectX"

I beg to differ.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 13th Aug 2008 02:41
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@TSS
I believe you mean Direct3D. But yes, I agree.

Cheers,

-naota

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JoelJ
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Posted: 13th Aug 2008 05:07
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Quote: "OpenGL is capable of quite a bit more than DirectX "

assuming you meant D3D, even then I think that's debatable. That's why D3D is still used so heavily. If OGL truly were easier, more powerful, and could do more, then more games would be developed using it.

And DX is handsdown faster on Vista... which is pretty much a joke that it is... You can blame MS for that.


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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Aug 2008 02:32
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For me OpenGL runs at the same speed as D3D9 in vista and faster than D3D10.

Cheers,

-naota

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 14th Aug 2008 03:24
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I've ran D3D and Open GL versions of the same thing and haven't noticed the difference, just now, lets test it (NeoAxis engine 0.47):

Bare in mind this is in Windows Vista on a GeForceM 9500 and NeoAxis uses OgreSDK to render -

OpenGL typical FPS of 59 (max settings and HDR)- when something new appears drops down to 40 quickly. But moments had 40-50fps.

Direct3D - mostly 59, very few occasions where it drop, and they were smaller drops.


So Direct3D appears to have the better performance as it manages to keep the frame rate mostly consistent.

But the differences seem small - how many people will have performance issues with OpenGL and not DirectX at the same time? To be honest as a player I didn't notice, I didn't notice it on my old system either for NeoAxis or Torque.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Aug 2008 21:40
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I remember my N64 and PS1 -- they were extremely slow (Did they even have hardware acceleration with their graphics?).

Anyways, thanks all.

Cheers,

-naota

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Mahoney
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Posted: 14th Aug 2008 21:43
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You ever looked at the Nintendo DS's specs? They're better than the N64, but still, in comparison to the PSP, they're pretty weak. But, Square Enix pushed it to the limit with Final Fantasy IV, as usual.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 01:17
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Btw, the OpenGL 3.0 specifications have been released.

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Mahoney
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 01:18
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And a driver. NVIDIA released a beta that supports 3.0 for developers.

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david w
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 03:33 Edited at: 15th Aug 2008 03:34
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I think D3D is really the way to go. Think about the massive user base. Honestly, is making a game cross-platfrom really worth it?

Count on your hand people you honestly know with a non-windows machine. Now raise your other hand (and like 5,000 imaginary ones) and count how many people you know with a windows machine.

edit: (odds are the few you do know with a non-windows machine, have a windows machine also)

I REST MY CASE.
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 03:53
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PS2 and PS3 use OpenGL I believe. I'm fairly certain the nintendo consoles use OpenGL as well.

There isn't really a mass user base for D3D, it's just people crowded into 2 or 3 forums. Same with OpenGL.

I'm not saying I'm against D3D either. D3D is obviously better on a Windows platform than GL (Not noticeably for me though).

Cheers,

-naota

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Mahoney
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Quote: "PS2 and PS3 use OpenGL I believe. "


They do. But honestly, what else would they use?

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Mahoney
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Did my research. The PS3 uses OpenGL ES 2.0. I can't find what the PS2 uses, nor can I find the Wii's API. Though, I did find that RederWare was a cross platform API with a native PS2 implementation, along with support for Wii, PS3, Gamecube, etc.

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David R
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 16:22
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Quote: "I think D3D is really the way to go. Think about the massive user base. Honestly, is making a game cross-platfrom really worth it?

Count on your hand people you honestly know with a non-windows machine. Now raise your other hand (and like 5,000 imaginary ones) and count how many people you know with a windows machine.

edit: (odds are the few you do know with a non-windows machine, have a windows machine also)

I REST MY CASE. "


Whether the app uses D3D or GL has a near-zero effect on the end user (although lesser GPUs tend to prioritise D3D related drivers over GL drivers, but that's a problem isolated to crummy GPUs any way).

Also, you argument makes no sense. Rather than supporting both platforms with GL, by your logic its better to use an API (D3D) which will cut about '5,000' people out? How does that make sense? Why not support both platforms rather than singling one out?


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JoelJ
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 17:12
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david w: OpenGL is used by more people then you think. So many games were made with OGL. Doom/Quake series for example. You don't use OGL because your targeting linux users, you use OGL because it's your weapon of choice. It IS more flexable, which makes it a more attractive option to linux/mac users.


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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 17:45
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I would go OpenGL; I find games based on it far quicker than those based on D3D, although I tend to use ancient systems.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 15th Aug 2008 19:37
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@NeX
You use an older system you say? What's the highest version of OpenGL you're able to run (out of curiosity)?


Thanks for the input all.

Cheers,

-naota

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david w
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Posted: 16th Aug 2008 01:23
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Well looks like everyone is for OpenGL. Good luck Aaron.
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david w
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 01:51 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 01:53
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Ive been reading some interesting stuff about opengl and it seems likes its dead, in favor of cad apps. Dont expect any updates/new versions. Good luck


http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=504547
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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 18th Aug 2008 02:25
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OpenGL isn't dead - it's still used for Linux and Mac on a wide scale.

Cheers,

-naota

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Leadwerks
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Posted: 31st Aug 2008 07:18 Edited at: 31st Aug 2008 07:19
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NVidia OpenGL is the fastest. OpenGL suffers some compatibility problems with AMD hardware on Windows, though.

It's really hard to choose an API between OpenGL 2.1/3 (nothing changed), DX9, and DX10. They all are terrible for one reason or another, and I am hoping Larabee will put them all out of business. I suppose if AMD gets their act together and releases GL3 drivers by Q1 2009 like they say they are going to, that would be the best choice, but I don't know if that is going to happen.
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Aaron Miller
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Interesting Josh. Almost makes it worth looking at ReactOS' source code and producing your own rendering API, doesn't it? heh heh... (I just might attempt that for the hell of it).

Cheers,

-naota

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