Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / LiveSpace - Extremely Impressive RealTime Engine.

Author
Message
Alucard94
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jul 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 13:56
Quote: "LivePlace.com has posted a video displaying a very impressive render of a 3D virtual world called City Space. At this point very little is known about LivePlace, other than that the WHOIS lists the domain’s owner as Brad Greenspan, one of the co-founders of MySpace. Note: It appears that in the 20 minutes since I spoke to Greenspan about this post, someone was told to take LivePlace down (apparently nobody was supposed to find it)."


This is an extremely impressive real time engine, I've honestly never ever seen anything like what they seem to do. Check the article out.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/11/liveplace-to-launch-photo-realistic-virtual-world-rendered-in-the-cloud/


Deathead
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Oct 2006
Location:
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 13:57
Holy cow. That is awesome!


Grandma
18
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Dec 2005
Location: Norway, Guiding the New World Order
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 14:36
Woah! That would have been an awesome multiplayer shooter! Sitting inside that office building @ 10:20 and sniping down on every chaw you see. The chaws would storm the building and I would have to do a "Die Hard" on them. All while playing Rick Astley music in the main hall to repel anyone not mentally capable of inputting such audio and live.

This message was brought to you by Grandma industries.

Making yesterdays games, today!
dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 14:44
Looks nice, the only thing that put me off was how everything looked waxed, thus showing reflections everywhere, I've never seen rooftops reflect that much light without scattering it.

David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 14:51 Edited at: 17th Aug 2008 14:55
Isn't this effectively equivalent to streaming video, though? I mean, it's rendered on a server, and streamed to the client. Although it is realtime when rendered, presumably the server is just a really high end machine, or even a farm of high end machines.

So to be honest, it isn't that amazing.

EDIT: In fact, it's fake according to the updates. So that's a bummer. Although the tech does exist, judging from the comments on that piece, the video is not of LivePlace


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Alucard94
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jul 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 14:57
Quote: "Isn't this effectively equivalent to streaming video, though? I mean, it's rendered on a server, and streamed to the client. Although it is realtime when rendered, presumably the server is just a really high end machine, or even a farm of high end machines.

So to be honest, it isn't that amazing.
"

Well if you actually can move around in that area as a "player" (In lack of better words) I'd say it was amazing Although if you can't actually move around in it, then yes, I do agree.


Quote: "Looks nice, the only thing that put me off was how everything looked waxed, thus showing reflections everywhere, I've never seen rooftops reflect that much light without scattering it.
"


Yeah that was one of the things I kind of noticed as well, but shouldn't that just be as simple as adjust the materials of the models? Although I might (And probably am) be wrong.


CoffeeGrunt
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2007
Location: England
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 15:25
Clever. They render this awesomeness on a bunch of supermachines. Then render it while recording the camera, and stream the video to the client. While the supermachine farm handles rendering, etc, the client only has to use a video, so it'll be intensive on the machine rendering, but sublime on the client.......

Why hasn't anyone else thought of that!?

dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 16:07 Edited at: 17th Aug 2008 16:09
Quote: "Why hasn't anyone else thought of that!?"


Because it's a stupid idea?, take a 'game' like half-Life 2 for example(though this looks like it has more graphical features than it so it's not the best example I guess); You require a pretty good PC to run HL2 with good graphical settings without major lag, now let's say a thousand people play HL2, you require 1000 PCs(well, not exactly in this case), that's a crap load of GPU use for all these clients, now imagine trying to render this on a single server, and remember it's possible for a modest server these days to handle 1000 clients depending on what it's doing, for a single server to render 1000 real-time scenes as complex as this is just crazy. So they obviously have to use many servers to handle 1000 clients, and to render 220 FPS max? and assuming the res isn't amazingly tiny I just can't see it.

I guess I'll wait until it's released and they do some large-scale world tests.

[edit] DavidR showed me this: http://3dblasphemy.com/personal/CITY.html isn't this the same thing? Only this is in someone's portfolio :/.

Aertic
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Jul 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 16:25
Quote: "You require a pretty good PC to run HL2 with good graphical settings without major lag,"

Actualy nowadays you wont, any average pc can run hl2 with 2x aa highest Af, top model settings, top texture, top shader, top shadows, and well, top everything else I suppose(tested on a intergrated 6600gt.) and thats all at 60-75 fps... then again Hl2 was optimised for lower end user's and thats one of the main reasons why its so good. also you can change it to play for dx8 users too, meaning probably over 120 fps... but ragdoll, water and bloom wont be nessacerily to great :S

But I agree with you on you're argument on why that's a tad not great idea to do :S


No doubt'fully the simon cowell of the fpsc section :S
Sid Sinister
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Jul 2005
Location:
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 17:18
Woah, that's some amazing stuff. It is a game or a social gathering site like Myspace/Facebook? Any idea when it's going to be out?

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
kaedroho
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2007
Location: Oxford,UK
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 17:19
The Heavy
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Aug 2008
Location:
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 20:12
They run these on stock ATI gpu's (probably hundreds at a time), looks like NVidia might have to change their priorities to compete

Who touched my gun?
da king
User Banned
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 20:43
Impressive.

New to Realm Crafter? Need some help, or want to learn some things? Realm Crafter: The lost manual is over 42 pages and 30 images: http://home.moonrisingame.com/tutorial_for_realm_crafter.htm
Zotoaster
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 20:53
That looks awesome, but the video annoyed me - it was too difficult to see.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
zzz
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Nov 2005
Location: Sweden
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 21:19 Edited at: 17th Aug 2008 21:20
Quote: "it was too difficult to see"

Just as difficult as the real world is to see when you take of your glasses!

Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 21:35
Quote: "You require a pretty good PC to run HL2 with good graphical settings without major lag, now let's say a thousand people play HL2, you require 1000 PCs(well, not exactly in this case), that's a crap load of GPU use for all these clients, now imagine trying to render this on a single server, and remember it's possible for a modest server these days to handle 1000 clients depending on what it's doing, for a single server to render 1000 real-time scenes as complex as this is just crazy. So they obviously have to use many servers to handle 1000 clients, and to render 220 FPS max? and assuming the res isn't amazingly tiny I just can't see it."

I don't think that would have to be the case though. You'd only have to render it one time, not 1000 times, you'd just be grabbing screens from 1000 views, which, while probably requiring a farm of high-end computers, would certainly be possible to do, if not now, then soon. You're not adding another render every user you add, just another screen capture.


flickenmaste
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd May 2008
Location:
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 22:33
sweet


[url=http://userbarmaker.com/][img]
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 22:42
Quote: "I don't think that would have to be the case though. You'd only have to render it one time, not 1000 times, you'd just be grabbing screens from 1000 views, which, while probably requiring a farm of high-end computers, would certainly be possible to do, if not now, then soon. You're not adding another render every user you add, just another screen capture."


Unless you have a camera in every possible location at all times, you need a unique camera per player, unless all players only see one view (which presumably destroys the point).

This is all irrelevant though - the video on the link is fake as pointed out by the comments and the link updates.


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
jasonhtml
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 20th Mar 2004
Location: OC, California, USA
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:03
the video wasn't a fake... it was just a copy of the original which was taken down.

i think this is a very interesting and neat concept, but impractical, as darkcoder said, because you would need a ton of servers to render all of the scenes requested by all of the clients. and with millions of people accessing a popular website like they propose, it just plainly couldn't handle it.

David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:09
Quote: "the video wasn't a fake... it was just a copy of the original which was taken down."


Ahem

Quote: " Update 2: According to this comment, portions of the video are taken from an artist’s portfolio that may not be related to LivePlace (the video he linked to is identical to the first 10 seconds of the clip above). It’s possible that the artist works for LivePlace, but it certainly doesn’t sound like it was rendered in real time… "



09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Alucard94
17
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Jul 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:12
It's fake? Ah jeeze, I almost got excited for this one, hah.


Mahoney
16
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 14th Apr 2008
Location: The Interwebs
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:17
Update 3:

Quote: " The 14 mins of real time rendering in this material is streaming live to a Treo 700 at 240 kpbs. This was captured on March 2007, the server was running an ATI RX 1900 GPU. The tech has improved massively since then (as has the HW we now run on). There was never intention to show any part of this to the public until we could include voxel rendering and Lightstage based characters. I think anyone who liked what they saw, will find the final project much more impressive.

The whole aim of our work last month on the Ruby demo for AMD was to show that the quality of offline and real time work is identical starting with this generation of GPUs. The following presentations this month are just introducing Lightstage and how it makes characters (or any CG object) look 100% real in those real time environments.

The virtual worlds these technologies are going to be applied to was not meant to be discussed until later this year, after one further announcement regarding the server side platform being developed for OTOY.

We had nothing to do with editing or leaking this video and can’t comment on anything other than the OTOY technology, since this project is still under NDA.

Jules Urbach "


Windows Vista Home Premium Intel Pentium Dual-Core 1.6 Ghz 1GB DDR2 RAM GeForce 8600GT Twin Turbo
David R
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Sep 2003
Location: 3.14
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:19 Edited at: 17th Aug 2008 23:23
Quote: "The whole aim of our work last month on the Ruby demo for AMD was to show that the quality of offline and real time work is identical starting with this generation of GPUs. The following presentations this month are just introducing Lightstage and how it makes characters (or any CG object) look 100% real in those real time environments."

Quote: "
The virtual worlds these technologies are going to be applied to"


i.e. it's just a single camera. It's not a virtual world yet. It's realtime rendering, sure (assuming this is correct). And it can stream to a device. But real time rendering + streaming is a world apart from supporting individual views

And this doesn't explain why there's an artist portfolio with the video on it (which is not realtime rendering) - especially since its labelled as "Personal" rather than "Work" on the artist's site


09-f9-11-02-9d-74-e3-5b-d8-41-56-c5-63-56-88-c0
Gil Galvanti
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Dec 2004
Location: Texas, United States
Posted: 17th Aug 2008 23:44
Quote: "Unless you have a camera in every possible location at all times, you need a unique camera per player, unless all players only see one view (which presumably destroys the point)."

Yes, a unique camera for each player, no, not a unique render for each player. It's like a split-screen game on consoles, the console is not rendering the world twice for each player, it is rendering it once and just showing two+ views of that world. So you get a farm of high-end PC's that IS able to run a world like that in real-time, which isn't hard to believe considering in a few years a single commercially available PC will probably be able to do the same, and transmit from various viewpoints within that world.


dark coder
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:23
Quote: "I don't think that would have to be the case though. You'd only have to render it one time, not 1000 times, you'd just be grabbing screens from 1000 views, which, while probably requiring a farm of high-end computers, would certainly be possible to do, if not now, then soon. You're not adding another render every user you add, just another screen capture."


No, rendering from 10 projections requires 10 cameras, which requires 10 passes of the scene minimum, but this uses motion blur, depth of field and HDR, and (stencil?)reflections meaning about 50 passes? And I wasn't implying 1000 clients meant 1000 servers, just that these days a server for an MMO-like game should be capable of handling 1000 clients doing only basic database accessing, calculations and networking, but to render this kind of thing, compress and stream it to clients is just insane. If they get 1000 clients they will need many servers, as to render that kind of scene you'd need insane amounts of processing power, 3 of the features I saw in the video are in Crysis, and that's only on the Very High settings as they are rather GPU intensive, and that's just for a single PC, think about dumping this required power on a single server and thousands of other people doing the same, you'd need some sci-fi technology to do this unless GPUs have advanced amazingly in the past year.

Benjamin
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:27 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 00:34
Quote: "It's like a split-screen game on consoles, the console is not rendering the world twice for each player, it is rendering it once and just showing two+ views of that world."

Showing a view requires rendering it. Showing two views (as in split-screen games) requires two renders.

I simply don't think it's a feasible idea, at least with current technology. Not only do the servers have to render the game, but they also have to stream high quality video data. Must be low-latency too if you want responsive controls.

RalphY
20
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Sep 2004
Location: 404 (UK)
Posted: 18th Aug 2008 00:44 Edited at: 18th Aug 2008 00:52
Indeed. Every view requires transforming all vertices in range from world space to camera space, projecting to a 2D image space, rasterization, and this isn't taking into account lighting effects and shaders. There's a reason most engines implement complex clipping and LOD algorithms. Rendering a scene is computationally expensive. To be able to do it to the level of detail in the demo footage, for a large number of players, in real time would require an awful lot of processing power.

Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking! | Super Nintendo Chalmers!

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-20 12:28:10
Your offset time is: 2024-11-20 12:28:10