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Geek Culture / Those of you in so-called Game Degree schools should take a look at this

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 22:00
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I've been preaching about how 99% of them are a waste of time for almost 10 years, when I was scammed out of $12,000 by an art school.

Most of these schools are crap, and they sell you dreams and fluff, instead of pure hardcore skills. My advice is to get a real degree for a real University.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1048605/Video-game-courses-waste-time-say-bosses.html

Anyone else have anything to say about this? I think it's a shame, really.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 22:59
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I wanted to go into game dev in the future (though I am reconsidering that, and perhaps just doing any software). When looking for a course to do I could have done a game specific course, but tbh, because I already knew some things about the subject, I could see that all they were giving me were tasters of certain things, i.e. a little 3D, a little 2D, some programming, etc. It doesn't specialize you in any certain section.

When I got an interview at the uni I'm going to, I heard exactly what I thought. Luckily, I'm just going to do computer science and maths this year (and basic astronomy, just as a filler).


On a related note (Jeku, you might know about this), recently, when EA hired 100 new programmers, only about 4 of them did games related courses; the rest just did programming courses.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:01
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So Digipen isn't as great as it seems then?

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Venge
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:09
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I've been looking into several colleges lately, seeing as it's my last year of high school. I want to go into animation (not sure whether to go for movies like Pixar or into game dev) and there are very few colleges that actually offer a degree. Many schools offer Graphic Design, but that seems to be more for web development, logos, 2d illustrations, etc.

Guess I'll keep looking. Good tip though, I was thinking about Full Sail as a possibility, but it looks like one of those "game schools".

I have CDO. It's like OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order, like they should be.
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:13
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I'm starting a course at Stafford College next week after getting brilliant GCSE results despite no revision whatsoever. You could call it a "game degree", as it covers animation, web coding, 3D modelling and 2D drawing. It's not a degree or anything, but I can continue any of the four at Stafford University. I am mostly going on the two-year course to find out which I am really best at; I don't know to be honest.

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BatVink
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:23
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The Daily Mail is one of the more reputable papers (as long as it's not a political article). Interesting to hear that the studios are more concerned with grass-roots skills, which I can understand. However, there must be some mileage in some of the courses - I believe bradford Uni and the one in the North East are very reputable and attract the interest of the AAA studios. They both get funding from the industry itself as far as I know.

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:24
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Quote: "I've been looking into several colleges lately, seeing as it's my last year of high school. I want to go into animation (not sure whether to go for movies like Pixar or into game dev) and there are very few colleges that actually offer a degree. Many schools offer Graphic Design, but that seems to be more for web development, logos, 2d illustrations, etc.

Guess I'll keep looking. Good tip though, I was thinking about Full Sail as a possibility, but it looks like one of those "game schools".
"


Emerson has an animation program I believe.

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Jeku
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Posted: 25th Aug 2008 23:28 Edited at: 25th Aug 2008 23:29
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By the way this is probably geared towards those who are wanting to do programming in the games industry--- the argument might not be valid for artists.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 00:06
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Quote: "By the way this is probably geared towards those who are wanting to do programming in the games industry--- the argument might not be valid for artists."


I happened to notice they were very media-orientated. But as far as the courses that I saw were concerned, it still wasn't that much learning in any particular field.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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David R
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 01:14 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 01:15
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I'd rather have solid low level reusable skills any way, rather than very specific stuff, considering the general flexibility/insecurity of game job employment (from most studios in the UK at least, some of the bigger ones are obviously more stable though) and the fact that I may not even want to work in games (or be able to)... I'm not 100% dead set on it yet

Quote: "after getting brilliant GCSE results despite no revision whatsoever. "


Yes, try that feat with A Levels, I dare you


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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 01:25
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^^^ Agreed. If/when you get burned out in the game industry by long hours of no-pay overtime and low work-life balance, you need to have relevant skills to fall back on.


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RalphY
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 01:40
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Quote: "but I can continue any of the four at Stafford University"

When I was applying to uni 3 years ago I looked at the game programming course at Stafford, but I wasn't all that impressed - during the interview the interviewer actually told me he thought I would be bored :S. I definitely got the impression that they didn't actually ever go into anything in enough detail to make it worthwhile. It may have improved since then.

I agree with David R and Jeku, far better to go for Comp Sci than a game specific course so you have something to fall back on. I believe some uni's offer a 1 year MSc in games programming so that's always an option after you have got your Comp Sci degree.

Oh boy! Sleep! That's when I'm a Viking! | Super Nintendo Chalmers!
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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 01:59
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I'm not much of a programmer. I'll leave it at that. My drawing and 3D skills far surpass my programming skills. Although my programming skills exist; I've a vague idea of what I'm doing half the time.

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Peter H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 06:22
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my university just added a game design (or something) concentration to their computer science major... i find this really funny because none of the professors have experience with games... and as far as i know they aren't bringing someone in.

One man, one lawnmower, plenty of angry groundhogs.
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ico
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 07:19 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 08:13
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Hmm, I'm about to start my 2nd year in a 3 year game development program. It briefly covers alot of different aspects of game dev, but also heavily focuses on programming. I realize that may not be the traditional way of getting into the game industry, but some graduates I know already have jobs working for a local company that makes hand held games ( http://www.magmic.com ). I might as well finish what I've started. A coder can dream can't they. lol

http://extraweb.algonquincollege.com/fulltime_programs/programOfStudy.aspx?id=3013X01FWO&

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 09:28 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 10:11
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I think whats most annoying about university now, is that all these crap degrees crop up because Tony Blair (In his infinite wisdom) Decided everybody should go to University.

This is why (If you reside in the UK) Your local park bench is suddenly a University now.
I flicked through the UCAS listings in the Independent, only to find the "Science" section chocked full of rubbish. Things like "Space Studies" and god knows what.

It wouldn't bother me if they didn't come out with a bachelors of science, or even a masters of science. To be quite honest it cheapens the whole experience of University. I have to work damn hard in my degree, because it is hard. I don't want to come out (On paper) at the same level as some half brain dead chav who suddenly people refer to as "Dr" because he has a PHD in Football studies.

People, If you are looking to go to university this year or next, and you suddenly find yourself enrolled on a course ending with "studies" or something like "TV studies" (I sh*** you not, that was in there) Save yourself a heap of debt and either find a proper course, or just get a job.

I know somebody who took a degree in Football studies. (Actually managed to fail it first time round) Now he is doing his "Masters" . Honestly, if he gets his masters, he will end up working in CarPhone warehouse. They all do. (O and he took the degree because he wanted to be a football journalist. Somebody should have given him a smack around the face and enrolled him in an English degree)

University is supposed to be challenging. Don't cop out on a lesser degree because you think its going to be hard.


Also another thing, seeing as I am in an angry rant mood. Every where I look now, people are suddenly becoming "Engineers" or "Dr".
I had an "PLUMBER" come to fix the boiler, but he refers to himself as an Engineer, they all do now. In other countries, this is actually illegal.
God I hate the way Britain is going.
There wouldn't be a recession if banks stopped handing out money willy nilly or if people understood the concept of a Loan (For those of you who don't know, you have to pay the money back).

There was a time where you had to go for a formal interview to borrow money from the bank.

*BiggAdd picks up his chair and throws it in the general direction of Gordon Brown. "Curse you organized government!!!!!!"*

(not me in the photo)

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Jess T
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 10:39 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 10:39
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My degree is a Bachelor of Computer Science (Games Technology).
Basically, it's a Comp Sci degree, with some games specific classes thrown in instead of things like business databases, and advanced networking, etc.

The first two & a half years there was at least one math subject each semester. As well as that, there was at least one programming subject each year. From there, we fell more into the 'practical' side, where we were to actually go through the processes of making games, looking at interface issues, the theory behind the games, if they'd work or not, the design process, etc, etc, etc.

Now, in my Honours (4th) year, I am well ahead of anyone else in the degree, and am making a physics engine on the DS.
Graduates from my degree have gone on to work for EA straight out. I'm looking for something similar, but who knows?

The thing lacking from games courses is the experience. An employer will pick someone with a few years experience in the games industry over a fresh graduate every time.
It means that when I graduate, I have to have done projects on the side, be involved in as many real-world areas as possible, and also have the skills to back up the bit of paper.

On the other hand, as far as I know, Australia doesn't have the large influx of 'Game' courses that other countries seem to, so ours are still worth it.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 12:18
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That article quoted by Jeku looks like a typical Daily Mail rant to me. I don't know what newspaper BatVink reads but the Daily Mail is barely one step out of the gutter. I can just imagine the new rant you'd get from the Daily Mail if universities upped all their entry standards and course content to include lots of "real" maths and computing skills. "Universities out of touch with the abilities and aspirations of youth", etc, etc.

My advice to anyone going to Uni to study anything is to do some actual study when you get there. The facilities are there - use them. If the courses are boring use the library and computing facilities to study for yourself. Stay ahead of the game. Universities are an ideal environment for active learning as opposed to passive instruction. Don't waste it.

Having said that, I agree with Jeku and others that core programming and mathematical skills are a must and any computer games degree that tries to sideline those activites should be viewed with suspicion.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 13:30 Edited at: 26th Aug 2008 13:34
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Quote: "That article quoted by Jeku looks like a typical Daily Mail rant to me."


Agreed, I've read similar articles by the Daily Mail, this is the same Newspaper that thinks Google is spying on us through Google Earth and believes because of it, stalkers will come and get you. They seem to be bent on proving that the country's education system is dumbing down - of course there is some truth, but a lot of what the Daily Mail comes out with is speculation.

Though saying that there is truth in the matter - there are 'Mickey Mouse' course and really it's really as Green Gandalf puts it - use the facilities, work hard and stay ahead of the game, the University is the environment for learning, but the University isn't going to hand the skills for a job to you on a plate, you work for it. Our university has one of those game courses (got a couple of friends studying it) and they teach you how to use the programs and how to make games, with C# and XNA in the first year and they build you up from there - with a years work placement (which I imagine is quite beneficial).

People who walk into University and walk out with a degree who think they'll get a job and earn $$$ (or £££ or €€€) are foolish - it goes without saying that with any university course you've got to prove yourself for the key skills and show you're one for the job (above other people applying for the same job)

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 13:47
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Quote: "Jamie MacDonald, the vice-president of Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios Europe, said: ‘I can’t remember the last time I employed someone from them.’"


Holy crap! That dude has my name! ^

This sucks. I was planning to go into programming or level design for the game industry. In the part of England where I live, (Norfolk, ), I bet there'll be no decent schools for game-deve available. Another thing I hate about the government is that they expect your average college or university going student to survive on £30 a week......

Yeh, while food prices are on the rise, petrol becomes so expensive they're actually offering a free tankful of the stuff as a prize on my local radio, and buying a house becomes even harder for those trying to make a start on the property ladder, £30 a week's really gonna get you far, isn't it?

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 13:59
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Quote: "Holy crap! That dude has my name! ^"


Don't tell 'em, Pike!
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Jeku
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 23:03
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Quote: "That article quoted by Jeku looks like a typical Daily Mail rant to me."


Well this is also speaking from experience. I've worked with many software engineers and asked them their schooling out of conversation over the years. Not once have I heard of someone going into programming from anywhere but a comp sci, math, or computer information systems background. I've never heard of someone getting hired with a so-called "Game Degree".

I've always advised people who ask for advice, to get a comp sci degree and work on games on the side, using C++. Read books on linear algebra and software engineer design patterns.

I just came across this article and found it interesting.

Quote: "they teach you how to use the programs and how to make games, with C# and XNA in the first year and they build you up from there"


As long as they don't solely focus on C#. As far as I know, *nobody* uses C# for games dev in the industry yet.


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Zotoaster
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 23:13
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Quote: "An employer will pick someone with a few years experience in the games industry over a fresh graduate every time.
It means that when I graduate, I have to have done projects on the side, be involved in as many real-world areas as possible, and also have the skills to back up the bit of paper."


I think that should be true of any course. Even if the risk is small for not getting employed, it always helps




Quote: "That article quoted by Jeku looks like a typical Daily Mail rant to me."


Well, if what my university advisor told me was true, then I would believe the Mail. OK, the mail isn't the most honest paper on the planet, but I doubt they would make up/quote mine what the vice president of Sony says.

Of course, if you do what Jess T is doing, I think you would probably be safe.

Don't you just hate that Zotoaster guy?
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Aug 2008 23:53
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Quote: "As long as they don't solely focus on C#. As far as I know, *nobody* uses C# for games dev in the industry yet.
"


From what I've heard from the friends doing it they only use C# as a starting point to work up to C++.

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
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xyzz1233
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 04:12 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 04:13
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Quote: "As long as they don't solely focus on C#. As far as I know, *nobody* uses C# for games dev in the industry yet."


What about Benjamin Nitschke? He wrote the first ever .NET commercial game (With OpenGL...) in 2004, Arena Wars (Although nobody knows about it... ), along with that Rocket Commander thing. In my opinion, adopting a whole new kind of language/API/etc. that will constitute a large code migration will take time, but code will be rewritten, nonetheless.

In a recent interview, he says he's going to start doing commercial stuff in XNA. He'll be the first one to do that, too...

Goes to show, people have different opinions about jumping to the latest new technology.

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 06:18 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 06:18
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There are dozens of reasons why typical game companies will not be making the switch to C# any time soon. Just because it's newer, does not make it better. C# is a scripting language after all.

As an analogy, take a look at DBP. It's great as a prototyping language, very easy to pick up and learn, and fun. I've found the same thing about C#--- it's incredibly simple compared to C++. However no major game company uses DBP to make its games.

There are tradeoffs in software engineering. You will always have various focused paths when devising a piece of software--- less memory intensive but more CPU intensive (i.e. procedural programming), less CPU intensive but more memory intensive (i.e. data tables for lookups instead of performing calculations every tick), etc. C++ trades off ease of use for incredible speed, power, and flexibility. Hell, sometimes we even use inline assembly to attain speeds faster than C++. It would be easier to use C++, but even that is not fast enough in some cases.


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Sid Sinister
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 06:42
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Yeah, I'm not sure if the article applies to Animation degrees. With Animation, you're going to be learning the same program no matter where you go. I think maybe where the school matters is prestige and how well they teach good design. But really, your education is what you put into it. I may be going to a school where the Animation program isn't geared towards anything particular like games or movies, but what you learn there still applies in those fields. I am going to take learning Animation very seriously, and I'm going to put 110% into it.

I start all the animation classes this semester, and I'm stoked! I already got my book in the mail

"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants" - Isaac Newton
-Computer Animation Major @Baker.edu-
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Crazy Ninja
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 08:54
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Anyone seen those awful games design college ads they show here in the US?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwlE1aASc4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-QSJmEgHU

Sadly that's just a few of them.

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Cian Rice
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 19:05 Edited at: 27th Aug 2008 19:06
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Please post that stuff Crazy Ninja. Nobody outside of the U.S. should have to suffer through those. I'd contemplate moving back to Ireland just to avoid them.

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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 20:34
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Hahahahaha I love those videos. They're "game designing" on their Xbox


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Alucard94
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 20:47
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Those were... HORRIBLE! Really, I feel scarred for life now.


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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 21:12
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I want to see more, I demand more - I love watching things that make me cringe.

They really make Cillit Bang and even JML look like Mercedes Benz adverts.

Hi I'm Barry Scott and this is Cillit Bang! [Who are you and why are you shouting at me? I'm not deaf and only Brian Blessed could sell me a product by shouting at me]

You sir have the moral ambivalence of a mutated shrimp!
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David R
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 22:03
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Quote: "Anyone seen those awful games design college ads they show here in the US?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwlE1aASc4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-QSJmEgHU
"


Oh my God, that makes me physically sick. Also, let's hope they don't teach acting or theatre there...


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Zombie 20
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Alright so I study C++ and a little flash on the side right now, *as I don't have a computer what else am I going to do?*

I've been looking into Oracle too and possibly some networking. Could this experience aide me as they could be classified as further experience in programming? I am so torn as of to go to a "game school" UAT or try penn state or some other schools closer to me *a couple states away* for comp sci.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
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Jeku
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Posted: 27th Aug 2008 23:47
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The question is why are you looking into Oracle and networking if you want to be a programmer? Most computer degrees give you a bit of this and a bit of that, but if you think knowing this other stuff will help you get a job as a programmer, it won't. On the contrary if you're pumped about working in an IT department and networking is your bag, then there is probably no point in pursuing programming (unless it's an interest you have as a hobby), because I can't see it scoring you any points with a company's HR department.


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Zombie 20
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Jeku- Thanks for replying, I was hoping you would.

I'm really just trying to branch myself out to be as useful as possible, as well suppose it doesn't pan out I'd want something to fall back on, some more skill to utilize in another branch. But, what I really like doing is coding games, I can't think of doing anything else, its such a blast, but I've been known to focus on one aspect of a subject and miss out on other things needed so I just started looking for a varied amount of languages. But no, to answer your question, programming is what I want, at the end of a day I really just want to be frustrated about my code, like every other one of us.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
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Zotoaster
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 00:55
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Quote: "I'm really just trying to branch myself out to be as useful as possible"


The trick with that is not to do a course that teaches a little bit of everything, because that's all you get.. a little bit. Do a compsci course that gives you a foundational knowledge of programming, and then you can spread your wings a bit by specializing in the area you want. That will make you much more employable.

Also I highly recommend making a portfolio of your own stuff. Credentials are one thing, but in the end of the day, employers want talent.

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LD52
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 01:17
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Would bachelors of software enginnering and possibly masters (if there is one?) be a good degree to get to get a job as a programmer?
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Zombie 20
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Ah great, i was looking at some online comp sci courses, I just requested info for one where you HAD to be over 26 WTF!

As far as a portfolio goes, i'm making one as we speak now.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
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Osiris
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 02:00
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Just for the defense of my school haha, people did come there watching some of those horrible commercials. However the department head told everyone that those were lies, and that the field is a lot harder than that. However I guess some people didn't listen because a lot of people came and just played WOW all day long and we went from about 140 to 40 people in just five quarters from people dropping or failing out because it was too hard. Also I think its really funny about all the people who have been dropped from a class because of our 2 day rule, if you miss more than two days (dosent have to be in a row) of a class you get auto dropped, unless you have a good reason like your in a hospital or something. Also if something is late its automatically 50% off, because you simply cant to that in a real work environment.

So I guess it depends on what school it is. Also what teachers are there. If they never did work for any game or entertainment companies you probably wont learn anything useful.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 02:45
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Quote: "Just for the defense of my school haha, people did come there watching some of those horrible commercials. However the department head told everyone that those were lies, and that the field is a lot harder than that. However I guess some people didn't listen because a lot of people came and just played WOW all day long and we went from about 140 to 40 people in just five quarters from people dropping or failing out because it was too hard. Also I think its really funny about all the people who have been dropped from a class because of our 2 day rule, if you miss more than two days (dosent have to be in a row) of a class you get auto dropped, unless you have a good reason like your in a hospital or something. Also if something is late its automatically 50% off, because you simply cant to that in a real work environment."


What school is this?

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Zombie 20
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 03:03 Edited at: 28th Aug 2008 03:15
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I just checked out stratford uni for online. The programming is really just an intro/intermediate course but I figure thats still more training for me, and I can have a diploma for my work. Afterwards, I'm heading to a heavier set programming schedule, I'm really excited.

Also looking at comp sci degrees.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
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Jeku
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 05:01
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A comp sci degree is your best bet for getting a programming job in the industry. Just about everyone has one, or a computer engineering degree.


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Zombie 20
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 05:12
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Great, well thats what interests me, I am absolutely fascinated by the human/computer relationship.


Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee cappacino, JAVA!
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Osiris
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Posted: 28th Aug 2008 08:46
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Quote: "What school is this?"


Tis Brown College.

RIP Max-Tuesday, November 2 2007
You will be dearly missed.
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